| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 02:47:12
Who is the most powerful Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the Wisest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the oldest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Which Demon Prince(s) are most likely agents of the Asmodeus?
Which Demon Prince is most likely an agent of good?
I have my own thought but want to hear what you guys think.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 19:14:12
So I actually went BACK to the beginnings of the thread (which I didn't realize were from 2012!), and it seems Shemmy (who SHOULD not the 'dark' about fiends) says that Graz'zt is NOT either a Baatezu or a Tanar'ri, Graz'zt is graz'zt. His mother was an Obyrith. So, just like I said - there is no need to 'fix' the continuity because there was no retcon.
'Demon' and 'Devil' are NOT 'races', they are affiliations, nothing more. Baatezu and Tanar'ri ARE races, that mostly come from the Hells and The Abyss, respectively. That means the majority of devils are Baatezu, and the majority of demons are Tanar'ri, and vice-versa, but its not 100% set-in-stone that it will always be the case. Graz'zt is half-Obyrith, making him unique (unless his other half is also Obyrith... but then again, that still makes him unique LOL).
I've been trying to work both the Draeden and Baernloths into my proto-cosmology. As I've noted above, I think Draeden are probably an 'natural' outgrowth of the universe itself. You could perhaps call them incredibly powerful, amoral, 'primal spirits' (extremely primitive, early ones, hence the more 'reptilian' approach to things). They would be the D&Dverse's version of Obyriths, which came from the Otherverse. Both insanely powerful, ancient beings, from two different universes. Except that in the Otherverse, all those other tiers - Overgods, Estelar, primordials, etc., never came about (it was a chaotic universe, after-all, which means the idea of a hierarchy would be anathema to them). They were just one group, of all power-levvels, and refused any sort of 'classification system'.
So where does that leave the Baernloths now, if they caused the Obyriths to 'come into existence' in the D&Dverse? Perhaps we can reinterpret things so it all works? What if the Baernloths are to the Omniverse what the Obyriths and Draedens are to the other universes? In other words, Over-Obyriths! They are a type of being above and beyond even multiverses. So the Obyrith universe is dying/decaying, and they can't figure out what to do (once again, they are CHAOTIC {as a group, but perhaps not individually}, and not used to working together), and then the Baernloths come along and 'showed them' the newly spawning D&Dverse*. Not sure why the Baernloths would do this, but whatever, they do, and they tell the Obyriths how (or help them) to breach the wall between universes. Perhaps Baernloth derive sustenance from conflict, and inter-universal conflict is the 'sweetest' of all. Who knows? Regardless, this puts the Baernloths back into the position of 'creators of the Obyriths', in that it was there doing that the Obyriths 'came about' in the D&Dverse, without having to disregard the 4e lore about them.
*In our D&D cosmology, it was a Shard of Pure Evil that penetrated the D&Dverse from the place the Obyriths came from. In scientific terminology, it almost seems like Black Holes and White Holes (the theoretical 'other end' to a Black Hole). So if we picture the D&Dverse as a bubble growing within the Otherverse (an infection of 'stability', or a 'Law Cancer'), and the Obyriths managed to stick a pin in that bubble (the Shard), then in a way, they may have hastened their own demise, while also allowing for their 'escape'. Think of it as one of those old movies were a group is trapped in a submarine (or a crew of a spaceship even), and the only way to get free is to 'blow the hatch'. This allows them to get out, and hopefully reach safety... but it also finally destroys the ship they are leaving behind. The 'rupture' created by the Shard created the equivalent of a Black Hole back in their universe.
In other words, if they used the 'Planestuff' of the Otherverse itself - pure, unbridled Chaos (Xaos) - to create the Shard of Pure Evil (and pure evil = chaotic evil), then they've released the raw material of their own dimension into ours, so the two are now mixing, and becoming diluted. Our gods (and beings of power, etc) are becoming 'corrupted' by it, but by the same token, their beings - the Obyriths (and anything else that may have 'come over') - are also being 'corrupted' by Law. Their plans to come here and take-over may have gone awry when they got here, and were so enamored by the place, they completely forgot their agenda (chaos, once again), and have all gone off in different directions to 'play with the new toys'. Some of them may even be leaning toward chaotic good at this point (because the 'Good vs Evil' axis didn't exist in their universe - morality is based in religion, which they never had). |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 15:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sounds like it was part of the 4e 'downsizing'.
Oyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff". Remember that wretched mantra?
And now in Rage of Demons, the tanar'ri lords take the obyriths' madness-inducing presence.
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 02:05:58
I imagine it's a pretty good way to annoy Asmodeus, though. The Lord Below has been faithful to the memory of his dead wife, and now an upstart tanar'ri mongrel dares to claim that the Lord of Baator sired him and, even worse, cheated on Bensozia?
Heads are going to roll.
...yeah, I never liked the whole 'Asmodeus was a cuckold' thing 4e introduced to be MATURE and EDGY. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 01:15:01
Nothing is wrong with saying he is unique - the same can be said of literally every Demon lord, archdevil, archdaemon, etc. They are all unique. My point is that its bad writing. How many - this guy switched sides and now is a boss of the opponent stories do we need? And even if you think that is interesting more than once or twice, can there possibly be a good argument to change the most well known demon to a devil? That's just crazy, especially since there are literally INFINITE demon lords that they could do it with. Too lazy to make their own characters though.
A comparable choice would be to add a paragraph to 5th edition stating that Elminster doesn't really server Mystra - he's been fooling her all along and really serves Bane. Oh, and Drizzt isn't a good guy - he's a spy for Baenre on the surface. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 01:04:26
Don't - I just can't imagine Ed changing. No reason to use a different system when the one been using for almost 30 works just fine. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 23:18:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have come from the future and in 7e, they did just that. good thing is that the family of Ed Greenwood got control of the realms and all it ever contained with only losing a few deities. and created their own gaming company that uses PAthfinder 4e instead of dnd
Nope - Ed's like me - he uses 2nd 'Ed'ition
and how do you know that pathfinder 4e isn't more like 2nd? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 20:39:45
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I understand (as a fellow grognard) where you guys are coming from, but honestly, i didn't mind the change because Graz'zt made no sense as a demon.
He was a 'thinker'. A plotter & planner. Not 'chaotic-stupid'.
Demons (and especially demon lords/ladies/things) are not chaotic-stupid, that's a limitation you (not just you Markus, you in a more general sense) player/DM put on them.
I understand all this, but part of the 4e design plan (yes, I KNOW - we HATE it... its been 11 years!) was that each thing should be different and unique, to the point of making a LOT of stuff we liked simply vanish (the whole "unnecessary redundancy" CP like to harp-on about).
So demons got spun more towards how people were running them anyway. If anything they needed to address how people run devils, and bad guys in-general. No party should be able to defeat a dragon. Not an old-school ancient one, anyway. Maybe the wimpier (smaller) 4e variety. DMs tend to run EVERYTHING like 'chaotic stupid', which is why so many campaigns fall into the trap of being boring, endless dice-rolling sessions. Give me a bad-guy I can love to hate, and thats pure win.
Anyhow, getting back... do we really need both Duergar and Derro in D&D? Sure, as grognards we like it because its always been there, but if some company developed a new game and setting, wouldn't it seem kinda stupid to have two similar flavors of 'ebil dwarf'?
Once again, the persnickity, grouchy old fanboi (fangeezer?) in me hates everything they did. The DM in me, sadly, likes most of it. Seriously, what the hell was difference between succubi and erynies aside from the 'team' they played for? They can change the way they look! All fiends can! (I think... don't quote me on that LOL)
Yes, it means rewriting the lore, and they did an atrocious job of that (they didn't even try to explain the changes), but now in 5e they are trying to explain at least some of them. And we here at Candlekeep - many of us, anyway - have accepted that canon is canon, and we try to reconcile the different (often grossly contradictory) lore together.
What's so terrible about saying Graz'zt is a UNIQUE being, and for awhile he played for one team, and now he's playing for a different one? What people called him didn't matter to him one bit. All these Gods, arch-something, primal-this-&-thats, etc., etc., probably pay no attention to how mortals are trying to define them. They are each unique. Hell, even liches (another group that has 'ascended beyond death') are supposed to each be unique. We shouldn't be so focused on titles, especially in the higher 'tiers' of power. Once something is an outsider (even dead people), group affiliations are meaningless, because they can change overnight... or stick around for tens of thousands of years.
Lets go with some old lore (and I am walking into a mine-field here, because Planescape is one of my shortfalls) - many 'natives' to various planes are spawned by the 'planestuff' (The material of the Plane) itself. Fiends and Celestials, elementals, Dgen, etc. Fey (the smaller, pre-'elf' variety). Now, as things gain power, their minds become more sentient (is that even a thing?), and instead of just being re-absorbed and then spit-back out as a 'level one' (newb), they respawn as themselves; they remember who they were. This process probably gets better as they advance (so the lowest type might not recall much of anything, but their personalities become more 'solidified' as they 'level up').
The other planer rule-of-thumb is "things go where they belong". Gods building heavens (rewards) and hells (punishments) screwed most of that up, but in generic D&D (so the 'default' mode of the universe) is that you go to the plane that fits your alignment. So what if Graz'zt, while fighting the Demons for untold millennia, one day respawned in the Abyys instead? This would make perfect sense, because he carved out a realm for himself there. So he used to respawn in Baator, but now his 'cosmic link' has shifted to the Abyss. So, since mortals decide what group beings belong to dependent on 'where they are from', Graz'zt becomes a demon... even though he doesn't feel like he changed at all.
When I was a kid my father was a member of the local Moose Lodge (YES, that's a real thing!) I recall him considering becoming an Elk instead, for business reason (Elks tended to be in a higher 'social bracket', thus, more money). However, at the end of the day, he stuck with his friends. But if he did switch, would my father have suddenly become a different person? Nope - just his affiliations would have switched. Anyone just meeting him for the first time, however, would have thought of him as an 'Elk', not a Moose.
And that's what I see happening with Fiends. Or more specifically, arch-fiends (and arch-anything, for that matter - we've had Celestials become demons and devils too!) Outlooks change and the universe auto-corrects; that's all that is. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 14:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have come from the future and in 7e, they did just that. good thing is that the family of Ed Greenwood got control of the realms and all it ever contained with only losing a few deities. and created their own gaming company that uses PAthfinder 4e instead of dnd
Nope - Ed's like me - he uses 2nd 'Ed'ition |
| Demzer |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 13:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I understand (as a fellow grognard) where you guys are coming from, but honestly, i didn't mind the change because Graz'zt made no sense as a demon.
He was a 'thinker'. A plotter & planner. Not 'chaotic-stupid'.
Demons (and especially demon lords/ladies/things) are not chaotic-stupid, that's a limitation you (not just you Markus, you in a more general sense) player/DM put on them. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 10:02:57
I have come from the future and in 7e, they did just that. good thing is that the family of Ed Greenwood got control of the realms and all it ever contained with only losing a few deities. and created their own gaming company that uses PAthfinder 4e instead of dnd |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 07:49:10
quote:
Not until 4th E's Manual of the Planes was this change made. Up until this point Graz'zt was the most detailed and repeated demon in all of D&D and one of the biggest and most popular bad guys. Then they write one paragraph that completely reverses his nature after almost 30 years.
Notice that this did not happen until years after Gary was dead and buried. He never would have allowed it.
Unforgivable.
Just one more way they fkd D&D for no reason with 4th Edition. Well, at least they didn't start calling him an aberration.
It could theoretically get worse. WotC could turn Graz'zt into the 17th "Elf Sub-race".  |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 07:11:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And BTW, in High Drow (ancient, spoken Hamafae), the suffix 'zt' means 'betrayer' (akin to race-traitor). Just sayin'. 
This explains Drizzt
BTW, I guess that at this point is pretty much clear that they have retconned things for their 5e lore. And no, not only 1e to 3.xe lore has been retconned, much of the 4e lore that survived into 5e has been retconned as well (as a 4e grodnard, you can believe me about this).
Actually, there is a "Lore you should know" podcast were they say that they are retconning things for 5e because they want lore that makes sense for 5e, even if doesn't make sense for earlier editions. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 03:14:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I understand (as a fellow grognard) where you guys are coming from, but honestly, i didn't mind the change because Graz'zt made no sense as a demon.
He was a 'thinker'. A plotter & planner. Not 'chaotic-stupid'.
Demogorgon planned out the Savage Tide.
Abraxas is the demon lord of arcane secrets, arcane talismans and forbidden words.
Arzial is a demon lord of subterfuge.
Astaroth, demon prince of prophecy.
Eldanoth, prince of crime.
Fraz Urb'Luu, Prince of Deception.
Gresil, Lord of Abyssal Lore.
Haagenti, prince of alchemy and artifice.
The only lord of chaotic stupid is Yeenoghu. Demons in themselves are not chaotic stupid, considering that Jim Bob the Balor is only bested out by the party wizard in terms of sheer intelligence. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 21:58:33
I understand (as a fellow grognard) where you guys are coming from, but honestly, i didn't mind the change because Graz'zt made no sense as a demon.
He was a 'thinker'. A plotter & planner. Not 'chaotic-stupid'.
Granted, pre-4e didn't make the distictions that 4e did - that devils are more like the smiling, folklorish variety who like to make 'deals' for souls, whereas demons became more like their mythological counterparts - unthinking engines of destruction. they just ran with that, and it all makes sense to me.
So while my grognard (rabid fanboi) eye is still twitching from all the 4e lore-butchery, my logical self (gamer) likes how defined the lines became. Unfortunately, Graz'zt became a casualty of the more clear-cut divisions 4e insisted upon.
And as I said above, you can just ignore it all, because when it comes right down to it, Graz'zt was NEITHER of those things - he preexisted the concepts. Now, if mortals on various worlds (and in the planes) want to make up stories about what faction he belongs to, then more power to them. But like the Demons & Devils themselves, mortals came MUCH later - after Graz'zt was around for a very long time. In other words, Mortals don't know s***.
Graz'zt can have a change of heart and move into the Seven Heavens tomorrow, and sooner or later some clueless basher will call him an angel. Thats just how it works. Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT - he scoffs at the very idea that he has a 'race'.
And BTW, in High Drow (ancient, spoken Hamafae), the suffix 'zt' means 'betrayer' (akin to race-traitor). Just sayin'. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 21:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s
Only in 4e+. Previous editions had his mother as Pale Night, and it's implied the Abyss itself fathered him. This fits with his clash against Orcus and Demogorgon; Demogorgon got where he is through seniority, Orcus through hard work and Graz'zt was born into it.
It also doesn't explain Graz'zt's siblings Vucarik in Chains, Lupercio, Rhyxali and Zivorgian.
That's also just me ignoring what I see as a needless overhaul of planar lore from 4e onwards, so take it with a pinch of salt.
This has no basis whatsoever as far as I know.
Lost Carverns - Not True
Monster Manual II - Not True
Iuz The Evil - Not True
Planes Of Chaos - Not True
For Duty And Deity - Not True
Book Of Vile Darkness - Not True
Hordes Of The Abyss - Not True
Even all the Dragon articles - Not True
Not until 4th E's Manual of the Planes was this change made. Up until this point Graz'zt was the most detailed and repeated demon in all of D&D and one of the biggest and most popular bad guys. Then they write one paragraph that completely reverses his nature after almost 30 years.
Notice that this did not happen until years after Gary was dead and buried. He never would have allowed it.
Unforgivable.
Just one more way they fkd D&D for no reason with 4th Edition. Well, at least they didn't start calling him an aberration. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 19:40:53
Draedens are our (D&Dverse) version of the Obyriths, who came from the Otherverse*. Apparently, as our (current) universe came into existance, many of them were rendered camatose, and layers within planes formed around them.
Now, this occurred after the destruction of the First World, because the lore states it occurred as an outgrowth of Planer structure forming around the Great ring. NOW, if we picture these 'Draeden' like giant space amoebas that are existing within the 'body' of the universe, and that they eat matter (which they do - they view the universe as their buffet), then they were probably something leftover from the Before-verse - the universe that was supplanted by our own. Draeden, therefor, may even be a type of Obyrith (a 'native' Obyrith, since they were trapped within the 'balloon' that was the new, growing universe). Because they were part of that, I think that somehow the shattering fo the Lattice of heaven is what 'sent them into shock', as it were. If they were like 'antibodies' in the body of the universe (so 'matter' is an 'infection' to them?), then it would be like a human getting into a major car accident - system shock all around. That's what the lore seems to indicate now, in hindsight. Unlike the Elder Gods, these were not something that were created by the 'mind of GOD' (consciousness of the newborn universe itself), but rather, a naturally-occurring phenomena with the universe. So the Gods were probably stunned by what happened , but beings like the Dreaden went into a coma (which ties directly into my thinking that the 'firmament' - the Prime Material - is really just the mortally wounded body of a supernal... and its slowly dying (think of it as being on 'life support' - unplug it from the machine that is the Great Wheel, and the whole thing just comes to an end).
Then the Obyriths show up - creatures from a universe that is being slowly supplanted by our own, ever-growing universe, and they start doing their own thing. So what if Graz'zt was fathered by a Draeden? One that became layer of the Abyss later on? Wouldn't it all fit together? All of Pale Night's children may have been sired by different fathers, but they would still be siblings.
*I use Otherverse normally to describe the place the aberrations came from. I use Before-verse to describe the place the Obyriths came from. I personally think they are the same place - that the Far Realms are all that's left of the before-verse, which is still collapsing, as the D&Dverse continues to expand into its space. This process has slowed a great deal over the millennia, but as to whether this is a natural occurrence, or something caused by the intrusion of the Obyriths is unknown (if the universe is a 'balloon', then the Obyriths literally shoved a pin into it). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 19:11:14
Bear in mind, that in the Time Before Time, everyone (at first) worked together. The alignment concepts didn't come until much later. When both death and time are meaningless, you really can't do much with 'evil'. Then the Shard of Pure Evil (which wasn't really evil, hence why I think of it as a Shard of Xaos) was pushed into the universe from the Obyrith verse (which I think of as the 'Before-verse'), and the concept of Xaos (Chaos, or PURE Evil) came into existence. At that point, as Beings became corrupted, sides were drawn-up and the Dawn War happened.
'Evil' (Lawful Evil) fought on the side of good during that conflict. Good & Evil would not 'bump heads' until after the Creation of the Great Wheel & the Crystal Spheres, which was in the aftermath of the Dawn War. When Gods began fighting over 'Good & Evil', it was really just a whole bunch of individual battles between parties that were holding grudges - that was the Godswar... and it actually had very little to do with alignment, either. 'Good' gods fought other good gods, and evil gods fought other evil gods. But it was mostly a 'Good vs Evil' thing, unlike the Xaos (Dawn) War.
Thus, in those ancient, primordial (antideluvian?) times, there were no 'Devils & Demons'. That came later. Trying to figure what 'camp' truly ancient beings belong in is like trying to figure out what political party neanderthals would have belonged to. Its just silly. When Graz'zt became Graz'zt, he wasn't either of those things, because those were NOT 'things' at that time.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
Youtube Video
Only in 4e+. Previous editions had his mother as Pale Night, and it's implied the Abyss itself fathered him. This fits with his clash against Orcus and Demogorgon; Demogorgon got where he is through seniority, Orcus through hard work and Graz'zt was born into it.
It also doesn't explain Graz'zt's siblings Vucarik in Chains, Lupercio, Rhyxali and Zivorgian.
That's also just me ignoring what I see as a needless overhaul of planar lore from 4e onwards, so take it with a pinch of salt.
While I hated EVERYTHING about 4e when it came out (after all, IT destroyed MY Realms!), I have grown to love their take (mostly) on the Planer structure, because it delved into those ancient Beings and connections.
While I used to just ignore Pale Night (and other Obyriths), now I see them as something incomprehensible - truly neither good nor evil. More like 'amoral', if it can even be called that. They have their own agenda, and 'morality does NOT apply (the concept didn't even exist in their universe).
I happen to really like Pale Night as Graz'zt's mommy. In fact, I have placed Pale Night as the mother of a number of beings that D&D (canon) doesn't, like Lolth (Lilith). I have it (homebrew alert) where she was actually accepted into Corellon's little, private 'club' back then - she was a Seldarine! (its just a club - 'race' wasn't even a thing back then so get over it, elf-lovers!)
The problem is, nearly all of her children became 'evil' in time, because of their heritage. Not so much evil, as I've said, but rather, ambitious and amoral, which is viewed as an 'evil' by the rest (non-evil) universe. 'Might makes Right' probably came from the Obyriths - its the only 'law' they respect. If you have the power to do something and no-one can stop you, then you should just do it. What others think just doesn't not matter. That's their outlook. That also means that if something more powerful than them comes along, and does something to them, they just accept it - that's just how things work to them. Having power means not having to justify any of your actions.
So the way I look at it, for the first time ever, the Obyriths were 'of one mind' when they pushed the Shard of Pure Evil into the D&Dverse. But the truth is, they were just working together for expediency sake. They do not like or dislike each other any more than any other being they would have met 'on the other side'. So maybe Pale Night was drawn to Corellon's brightness. For a time, anyway, until she grew bored. Their 'agenda' fell apart right after they completed their objective, and they are 'all over the place' now. They are called fiends because they do not live by anyone's else laws, codes, or standards. But the truth is, they do whatever they wish, and they care as little for 'the fiends' as they do anything else that sparks their interest. One day they can treat a group of lesser beings with benevolence, and the next, destroy them all.
Some of them may still be working towards their original goal of destroying the D&Dverse, but most of them (and remember, the lore says the majority of Obyriths DIED before they ever reached our universe)that are still around probably are just having fun with their new playthings. They are ALIEN, and unfathomable.
So I don't think the 4e lore contradicts older lore - we just need to reinterpret all of that "in light of new information" (some of which may also prove false over time). In fact, from what I understand (from conversations with Shemmy), most of the 'knowledge' of the universe is badly tainted by the viewpoints of its authors. history itself has been rewritten thousands of times. Plus, timelines have even been altered. The ONLY known library in existence that houses all TRUE knowledge is kept by the yugoloths! Because they are the biggest liars (in a universe filled with liars), they HAVE TO maintain the truth, for themselves, otherwise they would not be ale to keep track of all their own lies.
So, sometimes we get anew glimpse of 'the truth', and other times, we are just being fed a new platter of lies.  |
| Gyor |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 18:40:00
http://www.succubus.net/wiki/Lynkhab
See what I mean, for a demon lord Lynkhab is weirdly selfless. Even the forms she takes and the power she manifests is based on the desires of others, easy for Good beings to get some value out of her. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 17:14:59
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The most powerful, it's between Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt. The wisest I'd say Dagon, or Haagenti. The oldest tanar'ri is Demogorgon, obyrith I don't know, older than all of them is Ulgurshek, a dreaden (living layer).
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
Mslchanet was a Demon Prince with her own layer, but she switched sides to serve Asmodeaus and ended up a Devil in 4e, but now that Succubi aren't demons or devils, who knows what Malcanthet is anymore. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 17:10:36
I think Lynkhab is the most likely to be an agent of good, her curse can lead her to doing some good. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 12:45:58
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s
Only in 4e+. Previous editions had his mother as Pale Night, and it's implied the Abyss itself fathered him. This fits with his clash against Orcus and Demogorgon; Demogorgon got where he is through seniority, Orcus through hard work and Graz'zt was born into it.
It also doesn't explain Graz'zt's siblings Vucarik in Chains, Lupercio, Rhyxali and Zivorgian.
That's also just me ignoring what I see as a needless overhaul of planar lore from 4e onwards, so take it with a pinch of salt. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 09:41:56
How about Lilith? She's pretty ancient. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 09:07:49
Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 15:57:52
Someone (maybe me) should compile all of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles together.
Just found this over at Wizards. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 14:22:11
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Abyss formed around Ulgurshek while it was sleeping, obyriths are older only if they are older than the Abyss. 4e obyriths seem to be from another older universe and have the baernaloth role, but in regular D&D cosmology I don't think so.
I can't part the two timelines...to me they have to run linear and together or I'm likely to drop the whole thing. As I said, I don't consider 4e a ret-con...but instead treat it as "the current view of things" for the Multiverse. Sort of like the whole "the world is flat...oh...wait, it is ROUND!  " thing.
So, as I said before, I don't LIKE some of the things that happened (I don't like Asmodeus having been a simple Angel...and Graz'zt having been one of his servants)...I try to reconcile it all. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 14:15:37
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
Dragon 357 gets into it further, placing his imprisonment as being directly caused by or engineered by the baernaloths after he learned too much about his and the obyriths origins and went looking for the baern. It and FC:I also pretty clearly dovetail on a version of the Heart of Darkness yugoloth origin mythology from 2e.
IMO Bechard is clearly talking about the baern, given the later reference with Cabiri in FC:I and the allusion to the 2e 'loth creation mythology.
Dragon 357...check! Thanks for the heads up. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 13:39:14
Sounds like it was part of the 4e 'downsizing'.
Oyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff". Remember that wretched mantra? |
| Quale |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 08:14:54
Abyss formed around Ulgurshek while it was sleeping, obyriths are older only if they are older than the Abyss. 4e obyriths seem to be from another older universe and have the baernaloth role, but in regular D&D cosmology I don't think so. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 08:07:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
Dragon 357 gets into it further, placing his imprisonment as being directly caused by or engineered by the baernaloths after he learned too much about his and the obyriths origins and went looking for the baern. It and FC:I also pretty clearly dovetail on a version of the Heart of Darkness yugoloth origin mythology from 2e.
IMO Bechard is clearly talking about the baern, given the later reference with Cabiri in FC:I and the allusion to the 2e 'loth creation mythology. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 04:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
I would say that the Demons could easily be said to have come to Abyss (the Obyriths ARE demons) from elsewhere...their own universe...especially as we do not know how the Obyriths came to be created Bechard could be remembering his own birth in another universe.
All in how you look at it eh? |
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