| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 15:28:29
I almost always play some sort of spell caster in role playing games. However, in earlier D&D editions, when I play a spell caster, I am limited to only a couple spells per day. This I find incredibly unfair as to how a spell caster is played, especially at low levels. To me, it defeats the whole purpose of being a spell caster (I'm what they call a "spell hurler"  ).
So, does anyone have any homebrew or actual edition sources where it was not always like this (aside from 4e)? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 17:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Yes, but I do believe that mechanics should be solid enough to avoid this kind of problem. My problem with 3.5 is "absolute" mechanics;
Golem are IMMUNE to all magic
Wizard's lock prevents ALL lockpicking attempt
Knock opens ALL locks
Ironguard negates ALL metals
I tend to dislike many things that are irrevocable and final, independent of the target (except for a SR check here and there). Such rules leads to ridiculous loops, and wizard are the experts in that field. I heard that Pathfinder took great efforts to solve that problem.
Of course, most of this is avoided with reasonable players, which I have.
Or with just a bit of creativity. Anything immune to magic won't be immune to having a wall of iron dropped on it, or the stone floor it's standing on turned to mud.
Someone with ironguard is going to be in lots of trouble if he has to walk over a metal plate or grating covering an opening in the floor, or a metal bridge over a ravine, or even if he has to open a wooden door with metal handles on it.
And I don't see how magically keeping a lock from being mechanically opened is an issue. What's the point of the spell if it doesn't prevent lockpicking? Besides, that still doesn't preclude breaking the lock or door.
The effectiveness of those blocks for ironguard are debatable. The central question it would come down to is does it affect the character or anything he comes in contact with. So, for instance, if he picked up a rag and used the rag to open the door, would that function. Some DM's would rule one way, some another. Personally, I'd rule that it only affects the character himself and anything he was wearing/carrying at the time of the spellcasting, because the duration of the spell is so short (basically 2 or 3 minutes). |
| idilippy |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 01:41:07
Arcane lock and knock both changed in Pathfinder. Arcane lock is now rather less useful. If you use it on a lock it raises the Disable Device(skill encompassing open locks and disable device from 3.5e) DC by 10 for the lock while if you cast it on something without a lock the object grows a lock that is DC 20 to open. Knock lets a caster make a caster level check +10 to unlock a lock as if he had used the disable device skill, or it suppresses an arcane lock spell for 10 minutes. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 17:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or with just a bit of creativity. Anything immune to magic won't be immune to having a wall of iron dropped on it, or the stone floor it's standing on turned to mud.
Those are rather high level spells, and would require a large amount of prepared wall spells to slay a single golem. Stone to mud would slow it down a bit, but not much more. I'm not saying it is impossible, I find it weird that Elminster would be as incapacitated as a novice spellcaster. Make it a very high SR instead, like they did for Rakshasas.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Someone with ironguard is going to be in lots of trouble if he has to walk over a metal plate or grating covering an opening in the floor, or a metal bridge over a ravine, or even if he has to open a wooden door with metal handles on it.
Easily countered by having a single ally able to lift you or open a door. The spell is only 1 round/level anyway, but almost completely render all fighters useless. Make it so that magic metal that cost X gp is unaffected. X could be scaled with the spellcaster level to make it fair. At least, the level 25 fighter with his badass vorpal will be of some use against a single ironguarded wizard (besides punching and biting). Grapple could work, but theres freedom of movement which makes the caster IMMUNE to grapple (see? immune is bad).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I don't see how magically keeping a lock from being mechanically opened is an issue. What's the point of the spell if it doesn't prevent lockpicking? Besides, that still doesn't preclude breaking the lock or door.
The problem is that a spell cast by a level 3 wizard will completely thwart a level 20 rogue. The spell also prevent physical damage, making a wooden door as strong as iron. Make it a +20 for open lock skill checks or something, something reasonable for level 2 spell. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 16:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Yes, but I do believe that mechanics should be solid enough to avoid this kind of problem. My problem with 3.5 is "absolute" mechanics;
Golem are IMMUNE to all magic
Wizard's lock prevents ALL lockpicking attempt
Knock opens ALL locks
Ironguard negates ALL metals
I tend to dislike many things that are irrevocable and final, independent of the target (except for a SR check here and there). Such rules leads to ridiculous loops, and wizard are the experts in that field. I heard that Pathfinder took great efforts to solve that problem.
Of course, most of this is avoided with reasonable players, which I have.
Or with just a bit of creativity. Anything immune to magic won't be immune to having a wall of iron dropped on it, or the stone floor it's standing on turned to mud.
Someone with ironguard is going to be in lots of trouble if he has to walk over a metal plate or grating covering an opening in the floor, or a metal bridge over a ravine, or even if he has to open a wooden door with metal handles on it.
And I don't see how magically keeping a lock from being mechanically opened is an issue. What's the point of the spell if it doesn't prevent lockpicking? Besides, that still doesn't preclude breaking the lock or door. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 16:38:05
Yes, but I do believe that mechanics should be solid enough to avoid this kind of problem. My problem with 3.5 is "absolute" mechanics;
Golem are IMMUNE to all magic
Wizard's lock prevents ALL lockpicking attempt
Knock opens ALL locks
Ironguard negates ALL metals
I tend to dislike many things that are irrevocable and final, independent of the target (except for a SR check here and there). Such rules leads to ridiculous loops, and wizard are the experts in that field. I heard that Pathfinder took great efforts to solve that problem.
Of course, most of this is avoided with reasonable players, which I have.
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 16:18:58
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Don't get stuck on this specific example, of course it was an error for the DM, but sometimes a DM is taken by surprise (especially new ones). The point is, infinite low level spells could be abused. Imagine a world where purify food and water can be cast at will by any priest of level 1 or higher, famine would not exist. No ordinary dungeon wall would resist a patient level 1 wizard with acid splash. Cure minor wounds, mending, even cantrip, they all could be abused in many situations, and that's just the level 0 spells.
I think the problem falls more on the player and spaming the spells that were generously given by the DM and not necessarily the at-will aspects of cantrips. The player that abuses that sort of stuff just needs a good punch in the face. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 13:45:07
Don't get stuck on this specific example, of course it was an error for the DM, but sometimes a DM is taken by surprise (especially new ones). The point is, infinite low level spells could be abused. Imagine a world where purify food and water can be cast at will by any priest of level 1 or higher, famine would not exist. No ordinary dungeon wall would resist a patient level 1 wizard with acid splash. Cure minor wounds, mending, even cantrip, they all could be abused in many situations, and that's just the level 0 spells. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 13:33:32
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways.
That's more of a problem with the DM than with the players. It would take a billion spellcasters working for hours to create more water than the dungeon drains can handle just from cantrips. One wisard probably couldn't create enough to fill a carpet.
I do agree that no spell should ever be at-will, though. Anything can be abused to death if you can use it without limit.
What I do is give every wizard a number of free cantrips equal to his level. If they want more cantrips, they can cast Cantrip. That doesn't add much at lower levels, but it does add more flavor and more for the wizard to do before hitting level 5. I DO allow high level characters to give themselves a permanent Cantrip spell, giving them unlimited cantrips from then on, but by the time they can cast Permanency, their Cantrip spells already last all day and they no longer have any reason to rely on cantrips for anything more than being lazy.
Besides, Elminster has a permanent Cantrip spell. That's why he never needs matches to light his pipe - he just uses his finger.
And given that it would have probably taken the wizard months outside the entrance of that dungeon repeatedly casting the cantrip.... didn't the creatures on the inside maybe notice some water rising (assuming it didn't drain off somehow)? Not one would think to go look? Hell, if I was that DM, that would have been the doom of the wizard, because basically all the spread out creatures start asking one another "hey lets go find out".... and all of a sudden a horde is coming out of the dungeon entrance to make toothpaste out of the wizard. |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 22:43:01
The idea has been around a very long time. I have been in more than one group which used that rule, going back to 1e. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 03:29:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
In 2e I house rule that wizards benefit from intelligence the same way clerics benefit from wisdom when it comes to extra spells. I also have heard of, but not tried, a house rule making cantrips a nonweapon proficiency so that with intelligence checks wizards can do tiny cantrip things all day and have a magical feel. With just the int bonus spells a first level specialist wizard could have 3-4 spells available, while a nonspecialist would have 2-3, few enough that they have to be careful when they expend them, but enough that they aren't one and done. The cantrips proficiency ensures that a wizard can still do wizardy things with magic like lighting pipes or doing minor tricks, no matter how few 1st level spells they have.
That was actually written up as an article in Dragon, back in the day. I played a half-elf fighter-mage who took great advantage of that.
Interesting, maybe I got the idea from Dragon then, or read about it on a forum somewhere from someone else that got the idea from Dragon. |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 22:44:40
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
The 2Eish game I played in had a spell point system based on your casting stat and constitution. It was 4d6 drop the lowest for stats, with a higher adolescent suicide rate amongst potential adventurers than you'd imagine normally. Spell costs were exponential, so while there were still issues at low levels, if you cut back on your "highest level" spells, you had plenty of points to keep doing magic all day. It also made it very easy to just cast magic missile if you didn't have anything special planned. And, yeah ... a ninth level spell could effectively be traded in for 81 castings of magic missile. It just took 81 rounds of castings.
You could get the same effect by using the Channeler rules from Spells & Magic. You can drop it into any edition of D&D as-is, though you might want to determine in advance how certain feats will affect it. Some of the options resemble the magic feats enough, you can just say they require the feat. |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 22:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways.
That's more of a problem with the DM than with the players. It would take a billion spellcasters working for hours to create more water than the dungeon drains can handle just from cantrips. One wisard probably couldn't create enough to fill a carpet.
I do agree that no spell should ever be at-will, though. Anything can be abused to death if you can use it without limit.
What I do is give every wizard a number of free cantrips equal to his level. If they want more cantrips, they can cast Cantrip. That doesn't add much at lower levels, but it does add more flavor and more for the wizard to do before hitting level 5. I DO allow high level characters to give themselves a permanent Cantrip spell, giving them unlimited cantrips from then on, but by the time they can cast Permanency, their Cantrip spells already last all day and they no longer have any reason to rely on cantrips for anything more than being lazy.
Besides, Elminster has a permanent Cantrip spell. That's why he never needs matches to light his pipe - he just uses his finger. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 14:56:21
The 2Eish game I played in had a spell point system based on your casting stat and constitution. It was 4d6 drop the lowest for stats, with a higher adolescent suicide rate amongst potential adventurers than you'd imagine normally. Spell costs were exponential, so while there were still issues at low levels, if you cut back on your "highest level" spells, you had plenty of points to keep doing magic all day. It also made it very easy to just cast magic missile if you didn't have anything special planned. And, yeah ... a ninth level spell could effectively be traded in for 81 castings of magic missile. It just took 81 rounds of castings. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:14:42
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
This sounds like lack of experience on the DM's part. Anything a character can do to attempt to abuse the system should be easily countered by a mildly creative DM. Heck, have the created water mix with some unknown chemical in the dungeon to create an acid which doesn't gain strength until the PC is halfway through the dungeon. 
Agreed, but it also show the impact of having players who will make anything to find loops, even though it might break the game/quest in the process. Some DM will actually reward thinking outside the box like this.
Just like having infinite Acid splash will make sure most doors and walls will never be a problem.
The point is, the more options you have, the higher the chances to find holes and loops. 3.5 has a lot of option, a lot.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:12:28
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways.
I'd allow a mage to try that, but without something like a decanter of endless water, he's going to be magically exhausted before he's filled a single room.
Besides, one strategically placed shaft leading to an underground river, and you're never flooding that dungeon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:10:03
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
In 2e I house rule that wizards benefit from intelligence the same way clerics benefit from wisdom when it comes to extra spells. I also have heard of, but not tried, a house rule making cantrips a nonweapon proficiency so that with intelligence checks wizards can do tiny cantrip things all day and have a magical feel. With just the int bonus spells a first level specialist wizard could have 3-4 spells available, while a nonspecialist would have 2-3, few enough that they have to be careful when they expend them, but enough that they aren't one and done. The cantrips proficiency ensures that a wizard can still do wizardy things with magic like lighting pipes or doing minor tricks, no matter how few 1st level spells they have.
That was actually written up as an article in Dragon, back in the day. I played a half-elf fighter-mage who took great advantage of that. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:04:10
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways.
This sounds like lack of experience on the DM's part. Anything a character can do to attempt to abuse the system should be easily countered by a mildly creative DM. Heck, have the created water mix with some unknown chemical in the dungeon to create an acid which doesn't gain strength until the PC is halfway through the dungeon. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 19:20:16
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Wow, that's pretty crazy power-wise. Did non-spellcasters get something interesting (besides Feats) as they leveled too?
They did, but I do not expect all the changes I made to be perfectly balanced. They are really designed for my gaming table and current players, who will not try to find holes in the mechanics to maximize damage output. We just wanted to give new stuff to classes to allow them to compete against uber-PrC. Most of the changes were taken from (or heavily inspired from) numerous sources of DMs who tried the specific exercise of rebalancing 3.5. I also wanted to avoid level ups that give nothing at all, like sorcerers and clerics even levels.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:19:52
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I almost always play some sort of spell caster in role playing games. However, in earlier D&D editions, when I play a spell caster, I am limited to only a couple spells per day. This I find incredibly unfair as to how a spell caster is played, especially at low levels. To me, it defeats the whole purpose of being a spell caster (I'm what they call a "spell hurler" ).
So, does anyone have any homebrew or actual edition sources where it was not always like this (aside from 4e)?
3rd edition went a long way towards removing this hindrance at low levels by giving 1st level wizards a free feat. Scribe Scroll. Wizards typically don't spend a whole lot on equipment, so usually half their starter money can get spent cheaply on low level spells. Also, given that at starter levels the party fighter is getting smacked and almost dying after the 2nd or third fight, this should help the party wizard last long enough to get to 4th level and up, whereupon they may start stockpiling cheap wands, etc... |
| Diffan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 17:25:02
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways.
Yea, that outcome would never happen in a game I run. Water drains somewhere and at some point, it drains too fast for the 'flood' to be a serious issue.
EDIT: I had pondered just how much water something like this would take. A 5th level Cleric can produce 10 gallons every round, which totals about 100 gallons a minute. Now, compare that to a 20' pool that's 48" high and takes 9,400 gallons to fill, it would equate to approx One and a half hours to fill casting that spell continuously. And that's for a pool designed to hold the water. A dungeon has doors, cracks, faults, openings, and the stone itself absorbs a good portion of the water too. I just don't think it's feesable for a caster (even a mid- to high-level one) to attempt such a stunt. Additionally, I would also impose a Concentration check for the caster because performing a repeated exercise (no matter how simple) will no doubt wear on your focus. Thus I'd make DC checks every hour until they fail. Once that happens, it'll take a substantial amount of recover time to try so again.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
In my homebrew mechanics, wizards gain automatic still and silent spells for low-level spell (up to 3rd level spells at level 15-ish) and clerics gains the ability to cast these levels without having prepared them in advance. Sorcerers gain a bonus to any spell CR and caster level for 1 casting per CHA modifier +3 per day as a swift action.
I basically re-wrote every basic classes from 3.5, making up par to some stronger prestige classes that came out in the later years of the edition.
Wow, that's pretty crazy power-wise. Did non-spellcasters get something interesting (besides Feats) as they leveled too? |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 17:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, I was toying with the idea that as a mage (or spellcaster) gets more powerful, they often rely less on their lower level spells and thus, I had an idea of making them at-wills at some point. Perhaps something like at 12th level your 1st level spells become at-will, at 16th level your 2nd level spells become at-will, and at 20th level, your 3rd level spells become at-will.
In my homebrew mechanics, wizards gain automatic still and silent spells for low-level spell (up to 3rd level spells at level 15-ish) and clerics gains the ability to cast these levels without having prepared them in advance. Sorcerers gain a bonus to any spell CR and caster level for 1 casting per CHA modifier +3 per day as a swift action.
I basically re-wrote every basic classes from 3.5, making up par to some stronger prestige classes that came out in the later years of the edition. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 17:12:13
I heard of a DM, maybe here at the keep, who just allowed level-0 spells to be cast at-will. His players ended up flooding a dungeon with create water, got the xp for the drowned monsters, and collected the loot with a water-breathing trinket.
Anything at-will can be abused in some ways. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 17:02:58
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Reserve feats are the way to go for at-will weapon-like abilities for casters in 3.5. Many of them are really good even at higher levels. The force one is best for fighter-mages, and I think you can shoot mini lightning bolts all day with the electricity one.
Acidic Splatter is a nice 25-ft. ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 per level of the highest level acid spell you have prepared. I think it can be used for a lot of other out-of-combat applications too (like burning through locks or melting the bars of a cell).
Fiery Burst is probably my least favorite even though it's a 5-ft burst of 1d6 damage per level of the highest fire spell you have prepared. But I can see it has it's uses. I think I don't like it because of the Saving Throw involved.
Storm Bolt is the electricity one is pretty close to the Fire-based one but I like it more. I think this comes from my bias toward electricity damage instead of Fire though.
Suffice to say, the Reserve Feats were a great application of ideas to make low-level mages stretch their spells out during the day.
My favorites are those for healing and ability damage, saves so much spells between fights.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
My favorites are those for healing and ability damage, saves so much spells between fights.
Amen to that.
@ Erendriel: As far as homebrew ideas, I had made all Cantrips at-wills, though they were still bounded by the number of cantrips they could use. And that went for any class that had access to cantrip-magic (Duskblades, Bards, Clerics, DRuids, etc..) Also, if a Cantrip did damage (often 1d3) I would just max the damage out. For some reason, I have a strong hatred for 1d3 mechanics.
Also, I was toying with the idea that as a mage (or spellcaster) gets more powerful, they often rely less on their lower level spells and thus, I had an idea of making them at-wills at some point. Perhaps something like at 12th level your 1st level spells become at-will, at 16th level your 2nd level spells become at-will, and at 20th level, your 3rd level spells become at-will.
Pathfinder took a more direct route, granting per/day abilities for their Wizards via School powers. If say, you took the Evocation school, you had some sort of spell attack thats usable X/day and as you gain levels, you can pick 1 spell that can be cast multiple times to shoe affinity for that sort of knowledge.
Also, Spell Points from the Unearth Arcana book is an alternative way that magic works that draws less from the 'weakling mage' factors of low levels and allows more flexability with spellcasting.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 16:26:05
Reserve feats are the way to go for at-will weapon-like abilities for casters in 3.5. Many of them are really good even at higher levels. The force one is best for fighter-mages, and I think you can shoot mini lightning bolts all day with the electricity one.
My favorites are those for healing and ability damage, saves so much spells between fights.
|
| idilippy |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 16:06:08
In 2e I house rule that wizards benefit from intelligence the same way clerics benefit from wisdom when it comes to extra spells. I also have heard of, but not tried, a house rule making cantrips a nonweapon proficiency so that with intelligence checks wizards can do tiny cantrip things all day and have a magical feel. With just the int bonus spells a first level specialist wizard could have 3-4 spells available, while a nonspecialist would have 2-3, few enough that they have to be careful when they expend them, but enough that they aren't one and done. The cantrips proficiency ensures that a wizard can still do wizardy things with magic like lighting pipes or doing minor tricks, no matter how few 1st level spells they have. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 15:58:05
Many share that thought, and many efforts were made in late 3rd edition books and then 4th edition to limit that feeling of weakness for low-level casters. I believe that casters are interesting as peak damage dealers, or peak buffs/debuffs, in the essence that they have to restrain their power to unleash it at the right moment. A fighter will (and should) be able to sustain an average performance all day, but a wizard will have only a few moments of glory during the day. The whole problem is balancing the fun-factor with overall power balance.
So no, I do not have any homebrew rules to solve this situation, because if I did give an viable option to casters to be effective every single round, then nobody would want to play fighters anymore. We do start new characters at 4th level, so casters gain access to about 10 spells quickly, but gishes (fighter/mage) are more frequent than pure-casters. |
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