| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 20:08:43
While reading the latest of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles, I came across this interesting tidbit of lore from everyone's favorite unreliable narrator, Elminster: Given their wrath, anyone with coin enough and persuasive words—which does, yes, lead back to Sembia, and the mages of Shade who have become as weak as I have, reduced to tricking others into doing their work for them. Manipulation—and the gullible—are truly everywhere.”
So, what's happened to Shade that this might be so? How have they been stripped of their Art and power, I wonder?
EDIT: These articles are written in batches as I understand it, and turned in all at once before being published as the months go by. That said, could this be a first example of Ed "steering the Realms" in the manner of someone who's got some creative control over the Realms for 5E? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 11:38:11
I'm a fan, but I wouldn't wish otherwise. I just hope it's handled well. I prefer if the 'weakening' is caused by tense, internal conflicts among the members of the royal family. |
| coach |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 03:28:55
Shade/Shadovar seem to be the ingame Faerunian symbol of the out of game divide between new FR and old FR fans
new love em
old wish they were weakened or never have happened
and saying that obviously I hope Elminster is right and they are headed the way of the dodo
:)
|
| Firestorm |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 00:17:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Roll your eyes if you will Dennis, but the fact remains that Manshoon is NOT:
A Lich
A Vampire (ONE clone is)
A Shade
A Outsider
What he IS (according to Ed):
This cruel, calculating man heads the Zhentarim; its power and success are largely clue to his efforts, and its collective control of Zhentil Keep, the Citadel of the Raven (and through it, dominance over Thar and the cities of the Moonsea's northern coast), Darkhold (and through it, maintenance of the shortest overland trade route between the Inner Sea and Waterdeep) have made him very rich.
Manshoon, a noble of Zhentil Keep, slew his older brother Asmuth and seized control of the city's governing councils by skillful intrigue, staunch allies (such as Lord Chess, a lifelong friend), and the aid of that faction of the priesthood of Bane controlled by Fzoul Chembryl and of the beholder Xantriph. Manshoon's own alliances with Dark Nagas, and his manipulations of the Cult of the Dragon, increased his influence and bought him the time necessary to build his personal mastery of the magical arts without allowing stronger rivals to assume control of the city until he was ready to take it.
Take it he has, and has flourished; his spell library is thought to be the equal of Khelben Arunsun's, and his arsenal of magical devices and weapons the largest held by a single mage anywhere in the Realms(although it is scattered, hidden, and guarded by spells and monsters). He is known to possess a staff of the magi and wear black robes of the arch-magi, to wear a ring of spell storing and a ring of wizardry (that doubles fourth and fifth level spells), and is quite content to flee danger. Many have tried to kill him, and none have succeeded; he is careful, never lets his temper master his reason, and is always alert. He seems an unbeatable foe; others face danger to do his bidding, but he's "never there."
What he somehow turned into:
A crazy lunatic with split-body syndrome.
Ed has also hinted that the real Manshoon may be a puppetmaster directing all these lesser clones. We get a lot of NDA's on the subject. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 04:10:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that Manshoon actually fell upon a spell that was used long ago in Netheril.
I wonder if cloning magics actually have their origin with spellweavers/spell weavers. There's a wonderful Ecology of... article in one of the later 3.5E Dragon magazines that explains, inter alia, their mastery of cloning magic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 01:24:16
Being honest and being right are two different things. Malik usually falls on both categories, but often, just the former, because he has no other choice.
Remember, too, that even "silence" (which he often employs to stop himself form spilling the beans) can be misleading... |
| Sightless |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 00:46:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What do you do with a mask? You wear it (except in Cyrics case, he used it... as a sword).
@Fellfore - the big 3-module adventure path toward the end of 3e says explicitly that: that Shar orchestrated the whole thing (she manipulated Karsus and everyone else).
In the beginning Selune had 'power' and Shar had 'power' (divine energy/whatever), and Selune ripped her power from herself and threw it at Shar, which tore through Shar and ripped her power form her as well. then the two powers combined and formed Mystryl.
That is canon, form the War of Light & Darkness. From the time of that conflict up until Mystryl's death, mystryl had BOTH halves of the power. Shar had been waiting around a looooong time to get her's back. No Mystra ever had Umbral (shadow) energy - only Mystryl did.
Now we have to look at the Phaerimm - where did they come from? Wasn't it fortunate for Shar (in the long run) that these 'magic-eating grubs' appeared just in time to cause Karus to make a major blunder? And the grubs eat Arcane magic, not Shadow magic. Almost as if they were engineered to weaken anything Weave-based. It comes full-circle when the Shar-worshipping Shades (thats a bit redundant) return to Toril, and the first thing they want to do is clean up the mess that is the Phaerimm.
And the Sharn in the novels simply bypasses EVERYONE's wards - even appearing in Telemont's inner sanctum with no problem at all. Obviously, Shadow/Arcane does no matter to the Sharn, and they are the only ones able to react so (everyone else is either of one camp or the other, and their magic reacts violently with the other). I believe the Sharn are somehow still using Mystryl's Weave - the one made from 'whole magic' (like the Karse stone).
And Shar is the Dark Moon, and Cyric is the Dark Sun, and we know at least one sun was destroyed during the WoL&D (an event repeated, BTW, in the Draconian creation myths), and I think a moon was destroyed as well (unless all that debris in space, and the tearfalls hitting the planet, are all the remnants of the first sun, in which case Shar's moon must still exist, hidden somewhere).
The 'tears of Selune' is just a very poetic way of saying that they were once part of something selune cared very much about. I wish I had more to go on, but thats all I got.
Oh... and 'star silver' (also called 'moon silver') is mined wherever a star (meteor) fell, which is why I think those pieces must have been from a moon, and not the original sun which was destroyed.
But now I am ranging far-afield from the thread topic. Just to bring it back - I think the Shades are just one more piece in Shar's chess game. Too bad she doesn't play Sava - she's going to need it against Lolth. 
I'm doing research on that as it involes the dragon creater God, and the whole crushing thing somehow. I don't know what just yet, but have some leads. I found the script hook for Dragon magazine and so can use that place now, still can't go to the main WOTC site yet. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 00:21:19
That's assuming that he was there and knows about the God telling him to do it.
And if he was there, and did here it, it would also be true if the person willingly killed bob, as telling someone to do something and there doing it, means that the person doing it is the one that is most responsible. Now, if someone asked him why did said person kill bob, then he would probably say that the God told him to. If he knew, which he'd probably not know. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 00:19:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't believe anything Malik says. <snip>
But malik can't lie! Thats the whole point!
Malik can only state the truth, or at least, what he believes to be the truth. When he places Cyric on a pedestal, then he is "speaking from the heart" (literally, in his case - he exchanged hearts with cyric). But when he makes flat-out statements about stuff, like history, then thats in-world facts he's spewing (or at least, the facts as people of Toril believe them to be).
No, it's facts as he believes them to be -- which is not the same thing.
And not being able to lie is not necessarily the same as telling the truth. If, for example, Cyric orders one of his followers to kill Bahb the Fighter and said follower does the deed, Malik could still truthfully say that Cyric didn't kill Bahb -- but even though Cyric didn't do the deed himself, he's still responsible for killing Bahb.
More to the point; if Cyric orders Joe the Assassin to kill Bahb the fighter but tells Malik that he had Wendy the Warlock do it instead, then Malik can report that Wendy did the deed instead of Joe. A man being honest doesn't stop him from being wrong. |
| Gustaveren |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 23:42:41
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Hopefully this is WotC turning the Shades into just another evil group.
Shades were kool at first then became annoying.
That is true
my players came to hate shade based encounters / plots even though we initially enjoyed such encounters / plots |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 01:50:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
My apologies to the OP. Sorry for the thread-jacking. This is a fascinating line of thought. I need to cogitate on this a bit. More thoughts on this later...
Thats why, if we ever do get the 2.0 version of Candlekeep, we need the ability to 'split threads' - I find that very useful on other forums.
That's a request I put in myself back when Alaundo was originally composing a "Wish List" for the functionalities of Candlekeep 2. I found it an immensely useful function during my Moderation duties for another board that I used to frequent. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 20:29:41
I was actually going to bow-out of this conversation, because I hate when these things devolve into 'heated' debates. However, Jeremy is right - Malik HAS TO tell the truth. If he tries to obscure any of it (by telling only part of the truth), he automatically blurts out the rest. he can't help it.
So it would go something like this...
"Cyric didn't kill Bahb, some other people did"
"errr... ummm... but those people work for Cyric, so Cyric is still responsible for Bahb's death... ugh!"
He tries many times in the novel to obfuscate the truth, and he simply can't, to the point of even telling on himself. Its not just that he can't lie - he is forced to always answer truthfully, which is indeed different.
However, as was already pointed out by myself and others, he is always answering with his own, possibly flawed, knowledge, and his own fanatical dedication to Cyric, which still manages to taint some of what he says. For instance, if he said, "Cyric is the greatest, most powerful god!" he would believe that for a fact, and would have no problem stating it.
So my use of him to back-up that portion of my argument - that Cyric is supposed to have the Shadow Weave - is a bit of a straw house. However, there is still something there - something going on between Shar, Mask, and Cyric. Do we even know if mask is a male? I mean, for a FACT? If not, and he/she and Cyric are both 'children of Shar', then the parallel between them and Lolth and her offspring can't be ignored. Even if Mask is male, it still makes sense - sex isn't really set in stone with deities. For all we know Cyric could be a version of Selvatarm (a fallen 'hero'), and then Mask and Vharaun... thats just a no-brainer.
So then Shar would need one more 'wayward' child - is there anyone in canon that was on 'her side', and now vehemently opposes her? Maybe Shar's 'Eilistraee' was Leira? And she absorbed her, just as Lolth destroyed Eilistraee.
This could just be another case of different races worshiping the same gods with different aspects.
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
My apologies to the OP. Sorry for the thread-jacking. This is a fascinating line of thought. I need to cogitate on this a bit. More thoughts on this later...
Thats why, if we ever do get the 2.0 version of Candlekeep, we need the ability to 'split threads' - I find that very useful on other forums. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 17:03:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If, for example, Cyric orders one of his followers to kill Bahb the Fighter and said follower does the deed, Malik could still truthfully say that Cyric didn't kill Bahb -- but even though Cyric didn't do the deed himself, he's still responsible for killing Bahb.
Given the nature of Maliks curse--which is, as I (dimly) recall, a compulsion to tell the truth--he's more likely respond with "Cyric had Bahb killed".
It depends more on the exact wording of the question, I think, which is why I liked reading about Malik because he was constantly working against the curse and getting frustrated by it. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 16:58:08
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
My apologies to the OP. Sorry for the thread-jacking. This is a fascinating line of thought. I need to cogitate on this a bit. More thoughts on this later...
Like I said to Markus: I don't mind. 
The topic is interesting to me and I like it when one conversation spawns another, related one.
That said, let us know in this scroll if you decide to start another scroll to pursue your thoughts on the subject. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 13:10:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't believe anything Malik says. <snip>
But malik can't lie! Thats the whole point!
Malik can only state the truth, or at least, what he believes to be the truth. When he places Cyric on a pedestal, then he is "speaking from the heart" (literally, in his case - he exchanged hearts with cyric). But when he makes flat-out statements about stuff, like history, then thats in-world facts he's spewing (or at least, the facts as people of Toril believe them to be).
No, it's facts as he believes them to be -- which is not the same thing.
And not being able to lie is not necessarily the same as telling the truth. If, for example, Cyric orders one of his followers to kill Bahb the Fighter and said follower does the deed, Malik could still truthfully say that Cyric didn't kill Bahb -- but even though Cyric didn't do the deed himself, he's still responsible for killing Bahb. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 12:56:02
My apologies to the OP. Sorry for the thread-jacking. This is a fascinating line of thought. I need to cogitate on this a bit. More thoughts on this later... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 07:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't believe anything Malik says. <snip>
But malik can't lie! Thats the whole point!
Malik can only state the truth, or at least, what he believes to be the truth. When he places Cyric on a pedestal, then he is "speaking from the heart" (literally, in his case - he exchanged hearts with cyric). But when he makes flat-out statements about stuff, like history, then thats in-world facts he's spewing (or at least, the facts as people of Toril believe them to be).
I agree that his belief that Cyric should have the Shadow Weave could possibly taint his curse (of no lying), but the other stuff he says (about Mystryl, Karsus, magic, etc) is stated as fact. The weird thing is, in that series, a chosen of Cyric is siding with the Chosen of Mystra, rather then Shar. I guess Cyric really is mad, and his seraph is a little nuts too; they are managing to piss-off both sides at once.
Also, in the scene where Aris is creating the temple of Shar out of the temple of Cyric, he is carving Shar's moon around cyric, and then decides that that is far too obvious. there is a whole part where he is contemplating a different take on the alter - one where the moon is 'hidden', to reflect shar's subtlety in all things. Now Aris, as we know, portrays the underlying aspects of a scene in his art - he captures the truth. His decision to 'hide Shar's moon' in her own alter is his way of saying even her own clergy are unaware of all that she is behind. Cyric's holy symbol may remain prominent (and a bit deformed), but Shar's must be camouflaged in such a way that her presence becomes subliminal. She cannot be overt, even in her own place of worship!
Then Aris is rescued before he can even begin drawing out his new idea for the temple, so the work never gets done.
I'm just saying, a writer doesn't waste page count on stuff like that unless he is making some sort of point (just as movies do not put in unnecessary scenes... except maybe after the credits..) - when you have limited space you use it wisely to tell your story, and obviously Troy felt "Shar stays hidden behind all things" was an important point he was going for.
Anyhow, I am now looking forward to the Shar/Lolth thing, simply because I am curious as to how this eternal struggle will play out, and whether Cyric actually is a major player in the 'end game'.
And btw, I don't like Cyric - I don't use him at all in my games (I still use Bane and myrkul), so this isn't some sort of 'Cyric fanboi' wet dream. I truly hate the little turd. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 06:57:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But now I am ranging far-afield from the thread topic.
I don't mind. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 06:34:14
I wouldn't believe anything Malik says. He's the Seraph of Lies in the first place. Plus, all servants of whatever deity make it a point that their patron stands ABOVE everyone else. As for the symbols...Well, Shar's a black disk with a deep purple border; and that disk could easily be interpreted as the black sun, or moon, being Selune's evil twin. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 05:57:13
Could the Fane of Shaadow's be a part of Shar's moon? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 04:45:03
What do you do with a mask? You wear it (except in Cyrics case, he used it... as a sword).
@Fellfore - the big 3-module adventure path toward the end of 3e says explicitly that: that Shar orchestrated the whole thing (she manipulated Karsus and everyone else).
In the beginning Selune had 'power' and Shar had 'power' (divine energy/whatever), and Selune ripped her power from herself and threw it at Shar, which tore through Shar and ripped her power form her as well. then the two powers combined and formed Mystryl.
That is canon, form the War of Light & Darkness. From the time of that conflict up until Mystryl's death, mystryl had BOTH halves of the power. Shar had been waiting around a looooong time to get her's back. No Mystra ever had Umbral (shadow) energy - only Mystryl did.
Now we have to look at the Phaerimm - where did they come from? Wasn't it fortunate for Shar (in the long run) that these 'magic-eating grubs' appeared just in time to cause Karus to make a major blunder? And the grubs eat Arcane magic, not Shadow magic. Almost as if they were engineered to weaken anything Weave-based. It comes full-circle when the Shar-worshipping Shades (thats a bit redundant) return to Toril, and the first thing they want to do is clean up the mess that is the Phaerimm.
And the Sharn in the novels simply bypasses EVERYONE's wards - even appearing in Telemont's inner sanctum with no problem at all. Obviously, Shadow/Arcane does no matter to the Sharn, and they are the only ones able to react so (everyone else is either of one camp or the other, and their magic reacts violently with the other). I believe the Sharn are somehow still using Mystryl's Weave - the one made from 'whole magic' (like the Karse stone).
And Shar is the Dark Moon, and Cyric is the Dark Sun, and we know at least one sun was destroyed during the WoL&D (an event repeated, BTW, in the Draconian creation myths), and I think a moon was destroyed as well (unless all that debris in space, and the tearfalls hitting the planet, are all the remnants of the first sun, in which case Shar's moon must still exist, hidden somewhere).
The 'tears of Selune' is just a very poetic way of saying that they were once part of something selune cared very much about. I wish I had more to go on, but thats all I got.
Oh... and 'star silver' (also called 'moon silver') is mined wherever a star (meteor) fell, which is why I think those pieces must have been from a moon, and not the original sun which was destroyed.
But now I am ranging far-afield from the thread topic. Just to bring it back - I think the Shades are just one more piece in Shar's chess game. Too bad she doesn't play Sava - she's going to need it against Lolth. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 04:18:45
Maybe Cyric was to replace Mask? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 03:48:12
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Ive postulated before that each Mansoon clone has a bit less soul than the last. Nobody ever
said anything. I even think I mentioned it to Ed with no comment.
No matter how careful you are, when you pour water from one glass into another again and again...you lose some water. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 02:10:26
Ive postulated before that each Mansoon clone has a bit less soul than the last. Nobody ever
said anything. I even think I mentioned it to Ed with no comment. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 00:23:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Interesting... could it be that each copy has a little less 'soul' (humanity)? That the original wasn't nearly as diabolical (evil + crazy)?
I am about halfway done with book 3 of the WotAW trilogy, and this time the books states it outright:
quote:
From chapter 11 (3rd page from the end) of The Sorcerer
The Weave had filled Karsus to bursting and killed him on the spot, and it had split into the Weave and the Shadow Weave.
This is at a point in the book when Malik is trying to setup a cathedral to Cyric inside Shade, and is constantly referring to Cyric as "the Dark Sun" (son?) Then Yder (Shar's High Priest and a Prince of Shade) has the temple reconsecrated (or whatever evil deities do - defiled? double-defiled?) to Shar, and places Shar's symbol around Cyric's...as if he is within her... like a womb.. Its as if he was being 'nurtured' by her... groomed for something else, something greater. And Malik also claims the Shadow Weave "is Cyric's birthright"... and Malik CANNOT lie. We also have to remember that Cyric was an orphan... "he never knew his parents" (this is stated in his back-story in Hall of Heroes).
It was actually Aris who did the relief 'art' in the temple, but from the rest of the trilogy we know that Aris has an uncanny 'knack' for capturing the truth in his sculptures, which is even more telling.
Throw in the fact that Shar's symbol is specifically called 'the dark moon' (I think Troy gave something away there... something I have suspected for quite some time), and its all coming together. I am starting to get the idea that 4e was an 'intermission' of sorts - that the story begun in 3e (really at the moment of Karsus' Folly) will continue in 5e, and hopefully we will see some of these things play-out in the Rise of the Underdark story-arc. 
Wait. What? Does this imply Shar's meddling in Karsus' intended apotheosis? I was under the impression her divine war with Selune and Mystra began in the dawn of time. Was Karsus the catalyst for the creation of the Shadow Weave? Was there some behind-the-scenes influence? Was Cyric just Shar's patsy? Layers upon layers. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 18:28:54
That’s a pretty good summary, Markus. Looking at it within the Realms (and excluding WotC and their decisions), I think you’ve made a pretty compelling case for Shar’s grand plans. I like your point about Cyric’s parentage being in question, which hints at dark plans from the get go and how you’ve tied this one together. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 17:28:26
It could also be that Shar's symbol being placed around Cyric's shows her intent to eventually subsume him. Malik's statement could be his own opinion, and/or what he believes to be true. Keep in mind that Cyric has a greater hatred for Mystra than any other deity, and would thus see anything that negatively impacting her as something that should be his.
And Shar's symbol has been the dark moon for quite some time.
There's really nothing to support there being anything here other than some artistic license. Especially since WotC plans have changed rather radically since this trilogy came out. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 16:37:11
Interesting... could it be that each copy has a little less 'soul' (humanity)? That the original wasn't nearly as diabolical (evil + crazy)?
I am about halfway done with book 3 of the WotAW trilogy, and this time the books states it outright:
quote:
From chapter 11 (3rd page from the end) of The Sorcerer
The Weave had filled Karsus to bursting and killed him on the spot, and it had split into the Weave and the Shadow Weave.
This is at a point in the book when Malik is trying to setup a cathedral to Cyric inside Shade, and is constantly referring to Cyric as "the Dark Sun" (son?) Then Yder (Shar's High Priest and a Prince of Shade) has the temple reconsecrated (or whatever evil deities do - defiled? double-defiled?) to Shar, and places Shar's symbol around Cyric's...as if he is within her... like a womb.. Its as if he was being 'nurtured' by her... groomed for something else, something greater. And Malik also claims the Shadow Weave "is Cyric's birthright"... and Malik CANNOT lie. We also have to remember that Cyric was an orphan... "he never knew his parents" (this is stated in his back-story in Hall of Heroes).
It was actually Aris who did the relief 'art' in the temple, but from the rest of the trilogy we know that Aris has an uncanny 'knack' for capturing the truth in his sculptures, which is even more telling.
Throw in the fact that Shar's symbol is specifically called 'the dark moon' (I think Troy gave something away there... something I have suspected for quite some time), and its all coming together. I am starting to get the idea that 4e was an 'intermission' of sorts - that the story begun in 3e (really at the moment of Karsus' Folly) will continue in 5e, and hopefully we will see some of these things play-out in the Rise of the Underdark story-arc. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 14:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
The "Real" Manshoon made an appearence in the first of the Spellfire
novels, according to Ed, and he hides in the same place that only the
Weave touched in "Tears So White".
I imagine that was the Manshoon that grieved the Shadowsil. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 01:19:03
The "Real" Manshoon made an appearence in the first of the Spellfire
novels, according to Ed, and he hides in the same place that only the
Weave touched in "Tears So White". |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 08:39:49
It's Godborn.
Yes, Rivalen may, as all the other Shadovar. However, given what we've seen in the excerpts---Rivalen was practically immune to Brennus's most powerful spell---I suppose he'd be keeping his new status for a relatively long time... |
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