| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 16:59:00
Should it all be connected, or should every world have its own?
Mind you, if they only develop FR and no other world, this point become moot (I doubt they could do that, though, even if its their current plan).
I personally favor an interconnected model, as it was in 2e - I don't want different versions of Asmodeus and everyone else. Then I thought about comic's multiverses, and how their 'cosmic beings' are constant, even when they visit other dimensions....
But then I realized, even in comics, this isn't always a constant - Cosmic beings are (usually) specific to one multiversal continuity, but not to the greater megaversal continuity. The concept of a 'megaverse', BTW, has to be applied when one mutiverse 'meets' another (like the DC/Marvel crossovers). Marvel had Eternity, and DC has its own (unnamed) version... and strangely, they have been presented as both 'lovers', and brothers who hate each other (so they can't even keep continuity straight regarding crossovers).
And then there was Marvel's Beyonder, who existed (was 'born') outside of the Multiverse, and became a universe unto himself eventually (although this may have changed again- I can't keep up). So even though we have these cosmic, universe-spanning beings, they are not always constant outside of a specific number of realities.
So thats the rub - despite how cool it is to have these types of universal cosmic entities (and locales), there will always be someplace where these things don't exist, ergo its just easier to say every reality (Crystal Sphere) is separate.
On the one hand, it becomes easier to present universal, one-size-fits-all lore - like adventures/info set in other planes - but you increase the chances of creating continuity glitches exponentially. So what approach does everyone here prefer - separate, or Great Wheel/universal cosmology? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 17:51:56
Yeah, parts of it are pretty good, and I've reconciled most of the disparate lore.
I've been using a lot of numerology for my cosmology as well - everything revolving around trinities, and the mystical significance of five and six. I've also developed a trinity of life to explain away a lot of the Undead stuff - each person is composed of an Animus (the motive force derived from the material plane), the Spirit (the consciousness, which comes from the astral), and the Soul (the immortal, 'moral fiber' of a being that comes from the aether). It's the Body, Mind, & sou thing interpreted into D&D, and when anyone (or two) pieces are missing you get an undead. Each also corresponds to a different part of the mind - Your spirit is your conscious mind, your soul your subconscious, and your animus the reptilian brain.
I am also still trying to work out where each piece is 'stored' - it not how it normally works. The Body will probably be the heart, but the spirit is the shadow and the soul is one's reflection (hence why vampires do not cast reflections). Strangely, its really the animus I am having the most problems with - in order to make zombie (trope) lore work the animus should be in the brain stem. The spirit-in-shadow thing is a bit awkward, but it works; Its the 'free spirit' within everyone - the part that doesn't think, it just reacts to stimulus and seeks pleasure. Thus, it works for both fey-types and all the 'ebil shadow' lore we have (because the Shadow of a person is the easiest part to corrupt). Normally the 'dream state' helps fulfill all the subconscious fantasies, else they would manifest in the real world (so a serial killer becomes what it is because something is stealing its dreams).
A bit convoluted, but it all works for me. now I just have to see if it works on a game table. Thats just one example of how I managed to get 'the trinity' into my mythos. Three 'worlds' originally, then three dimensions (the main three planes), and then three states of existence - everything is built off of that. It wasn't just the True World that was shattered/sundered, it was the very essence of mortals. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 07:05:10
I like the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos model and intend to keep it in my game should it be changed back to the wheel/tree. |
| Marc |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 18:29:28
It's a brilliant idea, that Annam is Ao. I never liked that the Realmspace is ruled by one untouchable power, too monotheistic for me. In my cosmology that fix is perfect. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 18:09:58
Having a day to think about this, I think I am stretching things too far to make it work. Annam is just not ambivalent enough to be Ao.
Plus it gives way too much power to the Giantish/Dwarvish Overgod. Annam can remain 'The architect' in my customized cosmology, but Ao needs to be 'The Caretaker'. Someone who creates needs passion, but someone who administrates needs to be impartial.
So Annam remains more of a lower-tier Ordial (Prime-Ordial), and Ao remains an intermediate-level Overpower (simply an Ordial).
So we have Prime Ordials and Prime Evils. 
EDIT: On the other hand, I almost forgot that the Four dragon Kings (celestial dragons of oriental mythology) are all named Ao. In my HB cosmology I need five celestial dragon rulers for the five energies, so I just happen to need a fifth one (for sonic energy, which is the corresponding energy to life, or 'wood'). Thus, 'Ao' may just be a title and not a name (like 'the God'), and our FR Ao could be the missing fifth element (energy, actually). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 07:03:00
I had Gaea as the world serpent (who is also now sundered, along with her brother and lover Ymir - the essence of material matter), and Io is male (actually sex-neutral, methinks, but whatever), so I really don't know about that. Io can't be the world serpent.
On the other hand, in some of my earliest musings I referred to the highest order of Ordials as Drækons - and ancient Celstial word for 'being of immense power' - an Uber-primoridal). Those were more like the oriental dragons of mythology (not those D&D Lung dragons, which are mere shadows of the true celestial ones).
So the very first beings - the ones that represented the most primal concepts of the universe - are all 'draconic' (sort of - they think more along the lines of the 'reptilian brain').
Thus Ao, Ymir, Io, Gaea, Kronos, etc can all go by serpent/scaly aliases, since this is along the lines of how they were envisioned initially. Beings of incredible power and cold, calculating intellect. So the whole 'world serpent' thing could just be a confuscation of ancient truths rendered into modern myths.
On the other end of the spectrum - the opposites of the primordials - are the elder evils. Beings that existed before the universe as we know it was created. This would include Cthon and all the other cthulhuesque beings and critters (and the Far Realms is what the universe looked like before God/whatever created the multiverse from that chaos).
As for why Io created the dragons - they were to harness the energies of the maelstrom and mold them into something with structure, just as the giants were to harness the elements and shape the universe from that. They were supposed to work together... until something went wrong. The giants usurped the draconic dominion over the energies and tried to enslave the dragons. Five elements, five energies - each with its corresponding counterpart (although I understand that was another thing 4e screwed up). There were three parts to the first world - the heavens were to be ruled by the Drækons, the earth the giants, and the Underworld the Tanar (elemental beings, which we sometimes call Dgen, or 'genies'). Somehow a taint seeped into the world, and the giants and dragons went to war, and many of the Tanar were corrupted (became demons - Tanar-ri - literally 'corrupted elementals').
But now I am moving away from Giants, Dragons, Annam, and Ao and into fiendology, which is a whole 'nother huge subject. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 21:31:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*** Raise Scroll ***
This isn't precisely the thread I was looking for, but since it is connected to the line of reasoning that lead me to a new thought on a meta-cosmology, its as good as any.
So today I was going back to my concept of Ordials - those beings even more ancient (and powerful) then the Primordials. Almost like arch-primordials. I had borrowed Quale's concept of the demiurge and made it female. I need an male aspect for an archtect-like being... a 'builder'. The Demiurge is creativity personified, and represents the arts, but the Builder represents a more sytematic (and useful) approach to creation. This being would be Ao.
However, I still have a wee bit of a problem with the Giant pantheon, which I set way back to the pre-sundering days, and is one of the seven first deific pantheons to come into existence. I've already decided that the dwarven 'High god' is the same as the giantish All-father, Annam.
And then it struck me... I could make Annam Ao. 
The giants were created to help build the world - then an entire near-infinite plane (the Prime Material). What better workers then giants, eh? Then the Godwar happens and the world gets Sundered, and Ao/Annam goes off into his own demi-plane with his folk - one connected to the all the Primes so that he can continue to help build the worlds (now just Crystal spheres - the shattered remains of the 'one world'). This is the plane that the Fey eventually discover and flee to, and it becomes known as the feywild (a name the giants hate, because it was theirs first).
This means that back on Toril, a small bit of the original giantish empire exists as an 'echo'. This would have been the first Ostoria. Then at some point Mystryl 1.0 (or whatever) falls and we get another ToT/Spelllague event - I think this would have happened sometime around the founding of Nethril or perhaps a bit earlier (still working that part out). The usual happens (magical chaos) and lands get swapped around, and a big chunk of Old Ostoria gets transported to Toril (in the Heartvale region). This 'New Ostorio' eventually gets own, separate name - Jhothûn.
This helps explain the conflicts in the giantish lore - they were part of the pre-sundered world, then they were not part of the Feywild, and then they were part of Toril. The first races of giants - the Planer Giants - are larger and more powerful then their material descendents (we have two varieties of titans, Fomorians, and cyclops' in canon).
Here's the problem with all of that - whats the deal with Ulutiu? Obviously an archfey - some sort of beastlord I am thinking, going by his physical description in Twilight (in Realms of Infamy). I have to re-work that story to fit the over-cosmology, and it also should have occurred after the giants returned to Toril (so the Great Glacier isn't as old as people think). Also, this means Ao himself should have been exiled from Realmspace for a time, which seems really odd... but it could work for us. I am thinking this is why he did nothing about the Imaskari Godwall... he simply wasn't around then. It could also be why he had to hand the care-taking of the weave over to someone else (Mystryl).
What this line of conjecture does is make Ao more powerful (because now he is multi-spheric), but at the same time less enigmatic because of his human-like faults (he has made mistakes, and I still have to re-work the Ulutiu thing as more of an allegory). And lastly, it de-powers him just a tad, since obviously there are powers greater then him and things he can't control (like why he had to leave Realspace for a time). He is 'The Architect' - the designer of the physical worlds, All-father to the giants (and others), and 'high God' of the dwarves (who is above Moradin... Moradin may just be aspect). Lastly, it means that Abeir isn't really Toril's other half at all, since I have it where all worlds were one before the first Sundering. The Sundering was really two-fold - the shattering of the prime Material (into spheres) and then the exiling of the primordials to Abeir (so Abeir is more of a 'prison plane' - a place where all the 'unwanted junk' of the multiverse gets dumped). I figure this HAS TO BE SO, since the primordials are now loose all over the D&D multiverse, not just on Toril.
I am also leaning toward making Io his 'divine feminine' counterpart - The demiurge. Not sure about that one. I am not really feeling rolling the world serpent thing into creativity and the arts (but maybe... the scaly races seem drawn to the arts).
Anyway, just some more of my crazy thoughts about everything. I have to go out now, but I'll try to work on the Ulutiu angle when I return. 
Add the dragons as the other part of the tool, and you've got the other great builders. And As for where Ao was, part of the time he was ensuring that the plain of madness remained far far away from his creation.
My creation myth has wholes in it, but I think the sea of fallen stars wasn't an accident, but something that was part of the design all along. Of course, I might place creater significance into the world serpent than you do Marcus. I keep having to stop though, because there are information wholes, and places where the logic can't go, because I'm slow to simply create something because I don't want to wreck something that's cannon. At the least I don't wnat to create more contridictions. Well back to many arrows. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 20:14:09
*** Raise Scroll ***
This isn't precisely the thread I was looking for, but since it is connected to the line of reasoning that lead me to a new thought on a meta-cosmology, its as good as any.
So today I was going back to my concept of Ordials - those beings even more ancient (and powerful) then the Primordials. Almost like arch-primordials. I had borrowed Quale's concept of the demiurge and made it female. I need an male aspect for an archtect-like being... a 'builder'. The Demiurge is creativity personified, and represents the arts, but the Builder represents a more sytematic (and useful) approach to creation. This being would be Ao.
However, I still have a wee bit of a problem with the Giant pantheon, which I set way back to the pre-sundering days, and is one of the seven first deific pantheons to come into existence. I've already decided that the dwarven 'High god' is the same as the giantish All-father, Annam.
And then it struck me... I could make Annam Ao.
The giants were created to help build the world - then an entire near-infinite plane (the Prime Material). What better workers then giants, eh? Then the Godwar happens and the world gets Sundered, and Ao/Annam goes off into his own demi-plane with his folk - one connected to the all the Primes so that he can continue to help build the worlds (now just Crystal spheres - the shattered remains of the 'one world'). This is the plane that the Fey eventually discover and flee to, and it becomes known as the feywild (a name the giants hate, because it was theirs first).
This means that back on Toril, a small bit of the original giantish empire exists as an 'echo'. This would have been the first Ostoria. Then at some point Mystryl 1.0 (or whatever) falls and we get another ToT/Spelllague event - I think this would have happened sometime around the founding of Nethril or perhaps a bit earlier (still working that part out). The usual happens (magical chaos) and lands get swapped around, and a big chunk of Old Ostoria gets transported to Toril (in the Heartvale region). This 'New Ostorio' eventually gets own, separate name - Jhothûn.
This helps explain the conflicts in the giantish lore - they were part of the pre-sundered world, then they were part of the Feywild, and then they were part of Toril (again... sort of). The first races of giants - the Planer Giants - are larger and more powerful then their material descendents (we have two varieties of titans, Fomorians, and cyclops' in canon).
Here's the problem with all of that - whats the deal with Ulutiu? Obviously an archfey - some sort of beastlord I am thinking, going by his physical description in Twilight (in Realms of Infamy). I have to re-work that story to fit the over-cosmology, and it also should have occurred after the giants returned to Toril (so the Great Glacier isn't as old as people think). Also, this means Ao himself should have been exiled from Realmspace for a time, which seems really odd... but it could work for us. I am thinking this is why he did nothing about the Imaskari Godwall... he simply wasn't around then. It could also be why he had to hand the care-taking of the weave over to someone else (Mystryl).
What this line of conjecture does is make Ao more powerful (because now he is multi-spheric), but at the same time less enigmatic because of his human-like faults (he has made mistakes, and I still have to re-work the Ulutiu thing as more of an allegory). And lastly, it de-powers him just a tad, since obviously there are powers greater then him and things he can't control (like why he had to leave Realspace for a time). He is 'The Architect' - the designer of the physical worlds, All-father to the giants (and others), and 'high God' of the dwarves (who is above Moradin... Moradin may just be aspect). Lastly, it means that Abeir isn't really Toril's other half at all, since I have it where all worlds were one before the first Sundering. The Sundering was really two-fold - the shattering of the prime Material (into spheres) and then the exiling of the primordials to Abeir (so Abeir is more of a 'prison plane' - a place where all the 'unwanted junk' of the multiverse gets dumped). I figure this HAS TO BE SO, since the primordials are now loose all over the D&D multiverse, not just on Toril.
I am also leaning toward making Io his 'divine feminine' counterpart - The demiurge. Not sure about that one. I am not really feeling rolling the world serpent thing into creativity and the arts (but maybe... the scaly races seem drawn to the arts).
Anyway, just some more of my crazy thoughts about everything. I have to go out now, but I'll try to work on the Ulutiu angle when I return. |
| see |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was all linked for several years without any of that happening.
And if I believed that the same people who were making decisions for FR, Spelljammer, other settings, and the planes for TSR were going to be in charge of the decisions five years from now, that past performance would reassure me. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 18:15:01
Thats something I thought of a long time ago - the Ultra-Lloth - but never found a good fit for it, so figured I'd just toss the name out there and let someone else run with it.
I've already HB-ed Araushnee as a dark-eleven Eladrin, from a time before the elves split-off from them (in Faerie/Tintageer), and she was a noble, and made royalty (the S'Eladrin) by Cor Ellion (then just a wildly popular member of the royal court of Titania).
So the 'loth connection didn't work for me. On the other hand, some uber-power (Lloth) of the Abyss may have absorbed the original Araushnee, which is how she became Lolth (which also resolves the minor continuity glitch of the duel-name created by RAS). Perhaps Zenassu was an ultraloth, or even a minion of an Obyrith Araushnee slew when she got to the Abyss? I now thinking that beastlords - those powers that hold dominion over specific genus of creatures - are all Obyriths, and that she slew that Obyrith/beastlord of arachnids and absorbed its power (thus becoming something akin to an Ultroloth).
Its a bit 'out there', but it works to marry my (and the canon) concepts of her to the Ultoloth thing (if you were so inclined to use it). By the same token, you could say Araushnee didn't really win that conflict at all...  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 16:15:30
Ah, I was really focussing on a tangent unrelated to Markus' other arguments. Musing upon the possibilities of Lolth originally being an unusually powerful Ultroloth, and based on nothing more than coincidental similarities in wording (Ultra-lloth). Lolth was also named Lloth in older writings, and some confusion about her name existed until Lolth was adopted as standard. I imagine an (exiled?) Arch-Yugoloth who embraced more Chaotic ways, seized the 66th layer of the Abyss, and opportunistically installed herself as goddess over a corrupted race of elves. In some ways this explanation would even offer a lot of answers to problematic alignment questions. And I don't see any real problem with "insectoid" loths adapting more "arachnid" appearance/themes, especially one who turns to (or is reshaped by) Chaos and the Abyss.
Of course I'm not asserting this is the way it is. The entire notion is contraindicated by WotC's canon, the grand Seldarine soap opera, and all those terrible novels written by RAS. It's just an option I personally find more amenable for my version of the Realms, and I think some kind of backstory (or adventure) involving Lloth usurping the power of former-demon-god-of-layer-66 would be very interesting. Maybe it's not incompatible at all - the goddess Lolth might have usurped Lloth in times past, or treacherously betrayed her ex-Seldarine ally, and with or without some revisionist history it's not like she'd announce her greatest deceit to her drow worshippers. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 15:18:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm still pondering the possibilities of Markus' last comment ... ultra-lolth (ultra-lloth?) ... as some kind of daemon/yugoloth exile ...
Based on the language, I take his argumentation to be that all the goods have world avators, who then form lesser avators, when they want to. If a world avator is slain, like with Lolth in one world, it doesn’t mean that the God Lolth is slain, but that only that the one avator related with the world is slain.
Think of it as a tear system, main Lolth, then
World lolth, then
Lesser avator lolth.
Following this argumnentation, one could only kill Lolth, the overarching lolth, when they go to where she resides on the outer plains, and in so doing kill everyone els in the tear system.
I shall leave this hear for the moment, and not carry it any further.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 15:09:38
I'm still pondering the possibilities of Markus' last comment ... ultra-lolth (ultra-lloth?) ... as some kind of daemon/yugoloth exile ... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 12:25:08
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertOf course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
Your faith that the next time it would be a figure as marginal to FR as Orcus was to 2e FR is not one I share. For myself, when somebody working on the Greyhawk line six years from now brainstorms the idea, "Hey, let's have Vecna kill Bane and take his stuff!", I'd rather rely on, "Um, wait, that doesn't make any sense" as a defense than, "Um, wouldn't that upset the FR customers?"
How about you?
It was all linked for several years without any of that happening. |
| see |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 09:01:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertOf course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
Your faith that the next time it would be a figure as marginal to FR as Orcus was to 2e FR is not one I share. For myself, when somebody working on the Greyhawk line six years from now brainstorms the idea, "Hey, let's have Vecna kill Bane and take his stuff!", I'd rather rely on, "Um, wait, that doesn't make any sense" as a defense than, "Um, wouldn't that upset the FR customers?"
How about you? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 05:15:01
They are all connected to the Ultra-Lolth!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 04:44:22
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all.
At all? The whole Orcus-killed-by-Kiaransalee-and-becomes-undead plot done for Planescape sure looks like it made its way into my copy of Demihuman Deities . . . .
Of course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
But that wasn't even my point. Having a mechanism that links settings does not mean that events in one setting impact another. As Ayrik said, the Cataclysm did not affect the Realms
Even if I didn't like Spelljammer, Planescape, and the Great Wheel, I'd still find it a more elegant solution than trying to wrap my brain around how Lolth A is identical to but has no connection to Lolth B, who is identical to but has no connection to Lolth C, who is identical to but has no connection to Lolth D, and so on. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:16:36
The Blood War is something that takes places in the planes - the Prime Material is considered a 'neutral zone'.
That doesn't mean they have to play nice - it just means that fiends can ignore the edicts of their superiors while on the prime, and even work-together for mutual profit (even if that profit is just eating people or sowing destruction). Or, they can just rip each other to pieces like usual...
Just my take on it.
As for the Astral having a sea - I thought the whole plane was a sea - I've always thought that. I think the astral looks however the people traveling upon think its supposed to look, so if you have a boat, you're sailing. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of what you say Mournblade.
Except its Pirates of Darkwater, not Blackwater.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 20:48:26
I agree with Wooly's statement. Krynn's Cataclysm (apparently several of them) had no real impact on the Realms. If there's any real references to apocalyptic Greyhawk events (which I suppose have occurred, in theory) then I completely missed them. Even Planescape's Blood War remains almost entirely unknown in the Realms. Certainly, sometimes powerful entities manage to crossover to the Realms and bring a few of their problems with them, but they really don't generally accomplish anything of significance. |
| see |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 20:04:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all.
At all? The whole Orcus-killed-by-Kiaransalee-and-becomes-undead plot done for Planescape sure looks like it made its way into my copy of Demihuman Deities . . . . |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 17:13:15
I would like a return to the Great Wheel but I would like to see the 4e elememts of Feywild kept. I always played with a faerie realm being parallel.
The Elemental Chaos is a good idea as well. If they kept the great wheel and made all the elemental planes merge I am OK with that, but I really Dislike the Abyss being part of it.
By far the WORST thing 4e did cosmology wise was the Astral Sea. I guess it worked to shoehorn Spelljammer, but I found the actual ocean part of it to be jarring. It was an excuse to play Pirates of Blackwater with D&D. Please just bring the Astral back as it was. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 17:06:10
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I’m no fan of returning the Great Wheel to the Realms, but for those that are would a sort of blending of the Great Wheel and the Great Tree work?
For example, you could say that the Realms are part of the Great Wheel, it’s just that the names for certain of the planes are different in the Realms then in places like Krynn or other worlds.
Something like that?
That is ALWAYS what I have done. Every deities domain can be reached by the great wheel, but only the planar travellers and deities know that. Though Bane lives on the Barons of Doom and Despair, THAT is part of Acheron of the great wheel.
I was doing this before I played in the realms in middle school when I used all the viking and greek gods. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:44:28
This is why I pasted my own concept of Archtypes (derived from the early planer/god books in D&D, concerning non-human deities) over the model of the Great Wheel.
Every deity lives somewhere in the Outer Planes (non-deities live in the inner planes... usually), but those deities in the Outer Planes are really the archtypes. For some worlds, it simply ends there (this is how it works for Demi-humans on most - but not all - worlds).
Then there is the local cosmology, which is like a local neighborhood. This is (normally) set-up and governed by an Overgod. Most worlds have these (but once again, there are numerous exceptions - GH being the most well-known). This means that "what happens on Toril stays on Toril" (or Krynn, Mystara, Aebrynis, Vegas, etc)
When a deity (archtype) gains a presence on a world, it sends a single uber-avatar (greater Manifestation) to that local cosmology to govern its affairs there. This Manifestation is like a combination governor and clone, and is self-aware and only remotely connected to the original. But like a clone, it will eventually gain quirks and other personality traits over time, and start to differ from the original. A lot of these changes are brought-about by mortal belief, because mortal Faith alters the cosmology (and gods) to fit those beliefs (which is why divinity is a double-edged sword). If a deity dies on a certain world, that just means its manifestation is vanquished; if the deity was part of an archtype, then it has a chance to respawn (but normally only if mortals were unaware of the deicide - mortal belief itself would prevent the return).
This is also what makes it so dangerous for worlds to rely on the default cosmology (some say the True cosmology...): local cosmologies act as a buffer, and things in the Great Wheel remain much more 'constant' then they do in the local cosmic neighborhoods. When a being like Vecna tries to make changes to their status in a world without a local cosmology, it affects the entire multiverse, which is a VERY bad thing (and Io - the presumed overgod of Greyspace - is an uncaring reptile).
However, under normal conditions, there are enough worlds that do not have local cosmologies and just use the wheel (along with most demi-humans) to help stabilize it - one world's belief's changing cannot alter the cosmos all by itself - it would take a majority of the worlds using the default (Great Wheel) cosmology to believe those exact same things, and that is nearly impossible (which is what makes the Great Wheel so damn stable, despite the ability of mortals to alter the reality within the outer planes).
Inner planes are stable regardless - mortal belief has no effect on them. Only a major cross-world, multiversal event could alter its structure (as happened recently), because primordials are NOT deities, and mortal belief has no power over their domains.
I am unfamiliar with 4e cosmology, so forgive me if I am repeating what is currently canon (or disagreeing with it). I think the Elemental Maelstrom IS the natural condition of the universe, and the separated (Inner) planes were the result of the godswar and the imprisonment of most primordials. As we know from our RW science, certain energies and chemicals react violently when thrown together - their power increase exponentially. I think the primordials were all separated in Inner, Quasi-, and Para-elemental planes to keep these beings apart, and deny them much of their combined power. This restructuring (and partial imprisonment) would have to have been the work of extremely powerful (cosmic) beings, like overgods and higher - all working together.
That means the Inner planes were all artificial (to the natural universe), and Somehow this once invulnerable structure was made fragile, and was shattered when Mystra fell. This is why I think we don't know the whole story - I think what happened on Toril (and within Realmspace's cosmology) didn't do all these things by itself - there are too many fail-safes in-place. I think this was a well-coordinated plan, enacted on a myriad of levels (and worlds), that all came together.
Since we don't know what was behind it all - who were the real players and who were just pawns - then we don't even know if the outcome was the one they wanted... obviously it wasn't Shar's. In fact, there may have been so many uber-baddies from various worlds involved that they may have all been disappointed, as each tried to back-stab the others and steal the ultimate power for themselves.
On the other hand, Asmodeus seems satisfied with the results. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:05:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity.
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all. I don't think that's something to be concerned about.
I provide a decent enough analysis of this system in my entry for the Code of Conduct -- Section D.1. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 15:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by see
I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity.
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all. I don't think that's something to be concerned about. |
| see |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 09:56:10
I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 18:53:30
I'd just say its like dialing a radio...
If you know the 'station' you want (familiarity with your destination is even covered in the D&D books), you can dial right to it (Elminster has presets!). But if you are just 'browsing' and trying to find something along the lines of what you want (a blue rose, for instance), you would have to slowly 'dial' your way through the frequencies to find it. Coincidentally enough, Gunpowder does not work in Amber (just like in FR), so one Amberite had to spend a lot of time searching various realities until he found a variant that did (until he did, it was thought to be impossible... but nothing should be impossible in an infinite multiverse).
So jumping to specific locations in not impossible (in fact, I read an Omni magazine article back in the 70's that said much the same about artificial wormholes), but knowledge of the destination before hand is key, and if your data is incomplete, you can ere greatly (and some worlds are anathema to life itself, so its a dangerous game to play). This is why the 'slow but steady' approach is considered the best by cautious planeswalkers. You have to physically BE in these worlds for a few moments (or longer), and some worlds could kill you in a heartbeat.
Suppose you are looking for that blue rose, and it turns out its located in Hell, or the Abyss - wouldn't that suck? You'd find it, but you may not live to enjoy it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:10:38
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
To answer this question I shall use an analogy, which will help, but will not be perfect, because all anaologies are never perfect. When bats wish to extend the length of their echo location, they can't simply jump across frequencies. they have to slowly adjust from one to the other.
-Works for me. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 19:56:49
Agreed, information is indeed lacking. I took my first assumption as stated in a previous post, from the glass prison, as well as what I know of the older cosmology and it's relations to near and far eastern cosmology. My entire argumentation hinges upon these points. I shall admit that I am rather partle to this conception of the verse, of the beam, for a whole host of reasons. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 18:57:51
Interactions between worlds have been hugely downplayed in the sources while the god-abode outer planes -- a matter of mystery and uncertainty to all, as Ed has repeated -- were unduly dwelt over and made to seem more certain than they are. A full description of how the Realms multiverse seems to work would include both these sides; we're lacking so much information about the world-links that I don't know how it would go, or quite what is and isn't contingent rules-artefact material. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 17:55:29
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It should work like it did in The Chronicles of Amber. You could not get from any one plane to any other - you had to travel through many other realities first.
-Using this concept, how would that work if you throw out the notion of any kind of "planar geography" like I do, and rationalize different planes as simply different 'frequencies'? That one can't simply go from frequency 1 to frequency 3 without first switching over to frequency 2 and 'establishing' oneself there first?
To answer this question I shall use an analogy, which will help, but will not be perfect, because all anaologies are never perfect. When bats wish to extend the length of their echo location, they can't simply jump across frequencies. they have to slowly adjust from one to the other. Why? Because, they are trying to obtain a frequency set that's ideal for bouncing off the object in question and returning to them to creat a comprehendible schema in their brain.
Now, let's return to what I've said about plains for a moment, holding what I believe to be true. The spheres, within the greater sphere still have a single point of reference where they are attached to. this point of reference, foci, or axis, is the central beem that serves as the relational point for all the greater plains. If the model as stated in my previous post holds. One cannot simply travel to one point to another point in the verse to another point in the verse, as somce points in the verse would in fact lie in between. I can further elebarate if necesary. |
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