| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Veritas |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 20:44:25
Forgive me if this was discussed before, a quick search didn't turn up a scroll on the topic.
Presuming one accepts that the changes to the Pantheons in 4e are accurate...
We've seen with 4e that longstanding elven goddess Sehanine Moonbow, wife of Corellon Larethian was revealed to be Selune.
Selune is define by her opposition to Shar, the night goddess. The novel, Evermeet also demonstrated, in part, Sehanine's opposition to the dark goddess who is very much her opposite number, Lolth.
If Sehanine is a guise of Selune, would Lolth then be a guise of Shar?
Shar and Lolth both oppose their counterparts (although Lolth less directly so.) Shar and Lolth have an affinity for darkness, secrets, and destruction. Both have reproduced at least once, only to end or reclaim power within their sphere. (Shar->Mask, Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaerun. Vhaerun was very similar to a drow Mask. Shar ended Mask, Lolth, at least in part, engineered the end of the drow pantheon.
Shar and Lolth have or are attempting to usurp control of magic.
It wouldn't be inconceivable that the Lolth of FR is Shar in another guise.
Also it would be the sort of evil horrible joke one would expect of the dark goddess(es) on one Viconia DeVir who abandoned Lolth only to follow Shar.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 22:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
-Araushnee/Lolth did know that Realmspace existed before she was cast from the Seldarine. She was expelled in roughly -30,000 DR. Araushnee/Lolth first learned that Realmspace existed in -24,400 DR.
Shouldn't that be "did NOT know"? if she was expelled in -30,000 Dr, and learned of it in -24,000, then she was expelled LONG before she discovered it. Pre-DR dates run from high to low, not the other way around..... Just thought that should be cleared up. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 19:17:56
quote:
Actually, I could see a point in separating her realm from the abyss. In doing so, she to a small degree separates herself from being a demon with all the responsibilities/ hindrances that might go along with all of that. Plus, it would be a move towards making herself a more powerful deity, as she is perceived as no longer just another abyssal lord... and remember when you're talking god-power, perception is key.
So, all of that... I get... her and Shar being the same....yeah, not buying it.
Hmm... I don't think that Lolth was perceived as an Abyssal lord rather than a deity, but even if she was (among humans and other races, that is, drow already knew her nature), mortals wouldn't know that she separated her Realm from the Abyss anyway, and they wouldn't care at all. Besides, tbh I don't think that being a demon brings responsibilities (and surely way less than she already had as a deity). So, I still believe that it was a chaotic stupid act from an in setting PoV (also, a disappointing conclusion. All that mess for what? ''Hey! I'm moving to another house!'') and a way to simply dish out more novels for WotC.
About the topic of this thread, I don't think it'd be fitting, as I've already said many times. Having Shar somehow related with Lolth and her betrayal? Sure! Having them being the same deity? That wouldn't add anything to the setting, IMO. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:12:57
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[...]what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? [...]
No point (beside WotC preparing the way to get rid of the drow pantheon in the most profitable manner). Seriously, she put at stake so many of her followers (hence power) to do what? Separate her realm from the Demonweb pits? Cool... That was chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil (also, I've never understood how it increased her power).
Actually, I could see a point in separating her realm from the abyss. In doing so, she to a small degree separates herself from being a demon with all the responsibilities/ hindrances that might go along with all of that. Plus, it would be a move towards making herself a more powerful deity, as she is perceived as no longer just another abyssal lord... and remember when you're talking god-power, perception is key.
So, all of that... I get... her and Shar being the same....yeah, not buying it. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 15:32:28
All of these revelations are very much a 4e thing. They are best to be avoided as they aren't true to the original Realms.
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| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jun 2012 : 02:31:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[...]what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? [...]
No point (beside WotC preparing the way to get rid of the drow pantheon in the most profitable manner). Seriously, she put at stake so many of her followers (hence power) to do what? Separate her realm from the Demonweb pits? Cool... That was chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil (also, I've never understood how it increased her power). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jun 2012 : 02:25:22
Quite frankly, if they make Shar and Lolth the same... I think they've finally just lost their minds. Now, if they want to say Shar killed Lolth and took over her portfolios... that's different. But otherwise, what was the whole point of her making her own outer plane in the 6 novels? As someone else pointed out, their personalities and goals are vastly different. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:06:09
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
-Araushnee/Lolth did know that Realmspace existed before she was cast from the Seldarine. She was expelled in roughly -30,000 DR. Araushnee/Lolth first learned that Realmspace existed in -24,400 DR. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 12:05:11
quote:
I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
While from an in-setting point of view it is true that mortals have little real understanding about deities, as a reader I don't like this fact much. It holds potential, but on the other hand it looks like a tool for cheesy retcons to me, like: ''oh look, the Ladies of the Seldarine in truth never existed on Toril. They were other deities all along; it was the elves who were too stupid to notice it''.
I know that some people here proposed valid explanations to it, but this doesn't change the fact that -AFAIK- WotC didn't even bother to offer one, because they had that pretty weak excuse. I don't want this to happen again.
[/quote]
I completely agree with you on that. Its ridiculous to say that millions of elves over thousands of years didn't know who their Gods actually were.
This sort of mass deception hardly seems very " goodly" anyway. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 09:26:13
quote:
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon)
That's because her ways were leading her away from the path of the Tel'Quessir, not because she was already a demon.
quote:
I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
While from an in-setting point of view it is true that mortals have little real understanding about deities, as a reader I don't like this fact much. It holds potential, but on the other hand it looks like a tool for cheesy retcons to me, like: ''oh look, the Ladies of the Seldarine in truth never existed on Toril. They were other deities all along; it was the elves who were too stupid to notice it''.
I know that some people here proposed valid explanations to it, but this doesn't change the fact that -AFAIK- WotC didn't even bother to offer one, because they had that pretty weak excuse. I don't want this to happen again.
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| jerrod |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 04:10:59
In the novel evermeet, araushnee stopped being able to sense the presence of the elves already in toril before she was banished by the great betrayer(corellon) |
| Sightless |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:57:44
It would take an extremly large explanatory leap for them to valadly sell that they are both the same thing. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:43:09
I do want to step in and mention that, speaking canonically, we don't really know how DnD Next is going to handle the FR deity "reveal/merge" thing. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The stated position of WotC is that "if it's printed, it's canon" but that doesn't mean that the ways of the gods are as clear as black-and-white ink would have it. When it comes to the sourcebooks, all we're seeing is what mortals understand to be the case--that doesn't mean that it's correct.
I'd still maintain a little bit of disbelief/skepticism here.
Cheers |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:31:42
Araushnee was the elven deity of destiny and crafts. After she plotted to dethrone her consort, her punishment was banishment and the transformation into a demon. but she wasn't such before. Eventually, she managed to get her divine status back, overcoming what Corellon established for her.
Also, Lolth isn't about random destruction. She'd rather dominate things than destroy them.
Shar wouldn't mindlessly destroy either, her goal is the return to the nothingness that once was but her ways are subtle nonetheless (well, except the Spellplague consequences).
So, on this matter Lolth and Shar are far too different to be one single entity.
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| jerrod |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 03:14:09
We must remember that corellon identified araushnee is a spirit destroying entity...a true tanari. And she does like destruction for its own sake.keep ever in mind that no one knows where araushnee came from.she appeared just in time to seduce corellon before sehanine/selune could get him. By the way I hate hearing lolth referred to as anyone's aspect..since she was created before the world of toril in dnd. Maybe shar is the aspect. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:02:45
Oh, I wasn't aware that Selune once was the goddess of dreams. Thanks for pointing it out. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 13:59:14
In the novel Mistress of Night dreams play a large part in how Selune communicates with her followers.
Also she was once the Goddess of dreams, see page 51 of Netheril Empire of Magic. (And Shar was the Goddess of nightmares) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 10:13:42
Actually, Sehanine wasn't similar to Selune. They shared only the ''Moons'' area of influence and nothing else.
Their flavor was quite different: Sehanine was the ''Lady of Dreams'', she who represented the mystic side of the elves; Selune is about travelers and -well- the Moons and the light. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 08:53:47
They don't seem similar at all to me. Lolth wants power...Shar wants to destroy everything and return existence to nothingness (an evil Shiva) If nothing existed how could Lolth rule it all? Their ethos and character are not at all alike.
I think Sehanine exists in other universes, but couldn't exist in the realms because she was too similar to Selune. (BY DECREE OF AO!) By Lolth is unique and allowed to enter the world. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:15:01
Is it already revealed which surface realms would be attacked by the drow? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 08:29:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Hm... Then, as you pointed, maybe a drow-Shade alliance might have the effect of rallying the ''good'' aligned powers of the Realms under a single banner (at least temporarily) and weaken the super-powerful and evil presences that rose on Faerun after the Spellplague, lessening the ''pseudo-grimdark'' feeling the setting acquired (at least, it did so from my point of view). This would be a consequence I'd welcome, even if the huge good vs bad war thing is a bit cliché and unoriginal.
IMO, it's very unlikely. Shade chooses its allies well---specifically, those they can easily manipulate, like the Sembians. The drow are hardly that.
Also, Telamont has no plan of sharing the bounty, so to speak. He wishes to rule the world, however ambitious that sounds, and having drow as co-rulers has never crossed his mind, and likely never will.
Lastly and most importantly, do recall that the goal of Telamont, and by extension, the entire empire of Reborn Netheril, does not actually jive with Shar's. What would the Most High rule if all the world turns into dusts? Ultimately, he'd one day sever his rather loose ties with the Goddess of Loss, partly for his selfish ambition and to avenge his wife's death. He had already defied Shar's will once. He could do it again.
Good point. Still,
quote:
Sure, as I wrote previously, I think it's likely that they would work separately too. But it doesn't change the fact that they'd work for the same goal and for the same ''boss'', shifting the balance of power even more towards Shar/Lolth and their ''evil side'' of the spectrum.
Maybe, an eventual ''Shlolth'' would have them working each on their own but for the same goal, unknowingly (even though some individuals, like Telamont, could realize it at a certain point) and this wouldn't change much about the practical result for the setting, as I see it.
@Sightless
quote:
A possibility exists, which I shall now give voice to. Lalth isn't truely interested in the weave, but in the unfolding of events that such a bid would create.
This is an argument holding A to be true, and then leading back to A.
If chaos is an overarching goal, along with domination, is it possible that she is attempting to ingender more chaos through the response that others will give when they find out she will try and capture the weave (argument from A to injunction 1).
The others response will further create chaos both among her followers, but above the surfice world as well, and increase the level of distrust placed on drow. Thus, making it increasingly difficult for more to flee and leave her following (both injunctions satasfied with Demorgons).
The resulting rereorganization of various kingdoms could be a power play on her part, to move things in an attempt to those that can, she believes, be more easily minipulated/ removing powerful members from position, etc (from injunctions to main argument, process of Transformational logic 1 used).
All being an illusion towards a goal, which might be to put others off their guard by thinking she's been handled, when she makes her actual move towards her intended goal (Return to A).
You can follow the argument through the logical short hand, or so I hope. Again, this an argument from an assumption, which is bound by all the short comings that such an argument always has.
This could be true, but I doubt that this Rise of the Underdark is being used by WotC as the basis for yet another RSE in Lolth sauce. Her grand plans are getting tiresome, at least to me. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:33:26
A possibility exists, which I shall now give voice to. Lalth isn't truely interested in the weave, but in the unfolding of events that such a bid would create.
This is an argument holding A to be true, and then leading back to A.
If chaos is an overarching goal, along with domination, is it possible that she is attempting to ingender more chaos through the response that others will give when they find out she will try and capture the weave (argument from A to injunction 1).
The others response will further create chaos both among her followers, but above the surfice world as well, and increase the level of distrust placed on drow. Thus, making it increasingly difficult for more to flee and leave her following (both injunctions satasfied with Demorgons).
The resulting rereorganization of various kingdoms could be a power play on her part, to move things in an attempt to those that can, she believes, be more easily minipulated/ removing powerful members from position, etc (from injunctions to main argument, process of Transformational logic 1 used).
All being an illusion towards a goal, which might be to put others off their guard by thinking she's been handled, when she makes her actual move towards her intended goal (Return to A).
You can follow the argument through the logical short hand, or so I hope. Again, this an argument from an assumption, which is bound by all the short comings that such an argument always has. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:11:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If Lolth and Shar are the same, then why would "Sholth" be trying to build another Weave, when she's already made one?
The characteristics of the normal Weave and the Shadow Weave are opposite in many ways. Shar is obviously unable to modify the qualities of the SW that it may also have qualities of the W. The two Weaves cannot be merged. Having understood this limitation, she must have thought it imperative to either kill Mystra and take over the W, or create another W via the works of an aspect (Lolth). Sounds likely, but I personally don't like it. I'd rather have them engage in a cat fight than be one and the same. In the same way I'd rather have the Shadovar and the drow kill each other than be allies.
[Edit: Spelling] |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:02:22
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Hm... Then, as you pointed, maybe a drow-Shade alliance might have the effect of rallying the ''good'' aligned powers of the Realms under a single banner (at least temporarily) and weaken the super-powerful and evil presences that rose on Faerun after the Spellplague, lessening the ''pseudo-grimdark'' feeling the setting acquired (at least, it did so from my point of view). This would be a consequence I'd welcome, even if the huge good vs bad war thing is a bit cliché and unoriginal.
IMO, it's very unlikely. Shade chooses its allies well---specifically, those they can easily manipulate, like the Sembians. The drow are hardly that.
Also, Telamont has no plan of sharing the bounty, so to speak. He wishes to rule the world, however ambitious that sounds, and having drow as co-rulers has never crossed his mind, and likely never will.
Lastly and most importantly, do recall that the goal of Telamont, and by extension, the entire empire of Reborn Netheril, does not actually jive with Shar's. What would the Most High rule if all the world turns into dusts? Ultimately, he'd one day sever his rather loose ties with the Goddess of Loss, partly for his selfish ambition and to avenge his wife's death. He had already defied Shar's will once. He could do it again. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 04:26:16
Which still doesn't mean that they are one. it is not uncommon for mother daughter pairs to be worshiped as one, especially in the east, but the two being distinct intaties. To me it would be equally compelling, no, more compelling if Schar was responsible for the creation of Lolth, in some way not known to the elves. As a response, correct me if I'm wrong, to Selune's creation of the original Mystra.
Interestingly, Mystra means holder of secrets, in response to the statement above regarding the character of mystery in magic. In fact, Alcamy was originally called the revealing of secrets as part of the mystery; but enough of that. To me there doesn't seem enough logical consistency, at least with what data I have, to see them as one in the same. Is it possible that they are, maybe, but in doing so, there is either a lot of data missing, or a drastic alteration in the character of the primace lines. Tht'a of course, that the creators are following a logical argument in this matter. It's just that I've usually been able to notice one in most of what the Relms has done. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 02:04:54
-While I do not particularly like or agree with the concept, it certainly makes the degree of 'anger' that Shar and Lolth exhibit towards those heretics who worship Shar and Lolth as one (in or around Thay, I believe it was) all the more compelling, for they know the 'truth'... |
| Sightless |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 17:08:43
1. Gods dieing doesn't seem to hold the same weight ever since Bane came back. I'll leave that there, and just say that.
2. It seems distinctly possible that Lolth could have faked her own death. I mean, make it appear to have been slain in the demon webed pits. It wouldn't suprise me at all for that to have occured. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 15:56:49
@ Markustay
quote:
I don't think they should be one and the same, but I do think there should be a(n ancient?) connection. The idea that Shar 'whispered dark things' in Araushnee's ear I find... interesting.
For all we know, Lolth and Auril - who we now know to be the [i]Queen of Air and Darkness - may be sisters, or related in some other way. There may be a whole extended family thing going on with Shar (I theorized Graz'zt may have been a drow originally).
If this is done right (and NOT heavy-handed), this could prove to be one of the most interesting FR stories ever told. however, it has far more potential of turning into a continuity nightmare - I hope they are on top of it.
I agree. Having Lolth related to Shar could be interesting if it doesn't cause getting rid of one.
quote:
As for Lolth dying in the Demonwebs - that is a bit of a problem, but it is partially covered by WotSQ (they discovered the original demonweb pits - in the Abyss - abandoned and mostly a ruin). A single aspect of her may have been kept active in GH (where she never fell silent), and that aspect was killed in the DwP, while the greater portion of her power continued its 'gestation' and metamorphosis into a greater power elsewhere.
A little shaky, I know, but that's all I got.
Actually, this is a quite simple explanation that would work without utterly replacing Lolth in the Realms. It'd be fine to me.
@ Veritas
quote:
Again, I also don't believe that if Lolth and Shar turn out to be different faces of the same goddess, that this necessarily means the drow and Shade Enclave will ally. Both Shar and Lolth have had servants work at cross purposes (For an example concerning Shar, see the Twilight War trilogy). The goddess may have several tools working independently to reach the same ultimate end.
Sure, as I wrote previously, I think it's likely that they would work separately too. But it doesn't change the fact that they'd work for the same goal and for the same ''boss'', shifting the balance of power even more towards Shar/Lolth and their ''evil side'' of the spectrum. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 15:43:00
I don't think they should be one and the same, but I do think there should be a(n ancient?) connection. The idea that Shar 'whispered dark things' in Araushnee's ear I find... interesting.
For all we know, Lolth and Auril - who we now know to be the Queen of Air and Darkness - may be sisters, or related in some other way. There may be a whole extended family thing going on with Shar (I theorized Graz'zt may have been a drow originally).
If this is done right (and NOT heavy-handed), this could prove to be one of the most interesting FR stories ever told. However, it has far more potential of turning into a continuity nightmare - I hope they are on top of it.
As for Lolth dying in the Demonwebs - that is a bit of a problem, but it is partially covered by WotSQ (they discovered the original demonweb pits - in the Abyss - abandoned and mostly a ruin). A single aspect of her may have been kept active in GH (where she never fell silent), and that aspect was killed in the DwP, while the greater portion of her power continued its 'gestation' and metamorphosis into a greater power elsewhere.
A little shaky, I know, but that's all I got.  |
| Veritas |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 15:11:44
Just a brief comment about Lolth above, The Lolth for Greyhawk was slain in the Demonweb. It becomes more difficult to say that a deity disappears from a single sphere if its killed in its home plane (as opposed to being erased from the sphere). Again, I also don't believe that if Lolth and Shar turn out to be different faces of the same goddess, that this necessarily means the drow and Shade Enclave will ally. Both Shar and Lolth have had servants work at cross purposes (For an example concerning Shar, see the Twilight War trilogy). The goddess may have several tools working independently to reach the same ultimate end. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 15:00:15
The aspect thing can work for me, as long the original deity and the aspect are kept separate and not re-merged into a single entity. We could say, for example, that the aspect can gain independence if what he/she stands for is strong enough.
That's because Deities represent concepts and when they introduce some divine equivalence some of these concepts get lost and with them, flavor. The Selune-Sehanine identity, for example (AFAIK), took away the Lady of Dreams and Mystery facet of Sehanine, which is a way stronger and more important aspect of her to mystic people like elves than her relation with the Moon.
As for deities' bodies, I agree with you. Deities are outsiders, so they are embodied ideas and their appearance is related to how the observer perceives those ideas. One for all, beauty. However, some ideas are objective and appear equally to every observer. Like the idea of a race.
That said, I wouldn't like if divine beings didn't have a real identity and were instead just divine power flowing from a recipient into another according to the rise and fall of gods. That would greatly diminish my interest in them because, after all, if they represent concepts then what define them shouldn't be loose, but precise and definite. |
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