| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 03:40:36
Lets go get some non evil drow females to dance nekid in a ring of dread and have some male drow rogues steal their clothes.
Namely Eilistraee and Vhaerun.
Presume for a moment that Vhaerun only was tricked by either himself or his sister and she stole his divinity and his portfolios reducing the MAsked Lord to an archfey and Eilistraee at the end of the game just gave up her divinity to Lolth and became an archfey as well.
both of them would be in the feywild. what if they fassioned two rods to the ring of dread similiar to the one in the hands of whats her name the crazy elf lich and then use them inside the ring of dread outside Neverwinter and steal back their divinity and portfolios. Assume they succede and become deities again.
would such a thing be feesable to help repair the rift for 5e realms?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 21:32:48
Yes, we had the same discussion. Still, while, say, Vhaeraun, would be more appealing for someone interested in having authority, if a male turned to Eilistraee she would accept him (even if not as a cleric, and yes, I realize it might be a turn off for males who'd like to join her because they could perceive this as being marginalized) and wouldn't consider him 'inferior'. The same should be done by her clergy, as information published about her (except her depiction in novels) doesn't suggest otherwise. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 21:17:17
-Heh, I think it was you and me who had this discussion like two or three weeks ago in another thread, regarding disconnect between the stated goal of Eilistraee to accept and 'convert' all Drow, regardless of gender, and the way her clergy operates, which would certainly presents a female bias that would drive a wedge between her and the attractiveness in which male Drow would see in her. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 21:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Kiaransalee, she is close, but she exists as an alternative to Lolth for evil females, just like Elistraee existed as an alternative for good females.
Eilistraee is an alternative for all the drow who want a different kind of life, not only female. As I said elsewhere, she is meant as a mother for ALL the drow, even if in the trilogy she is depicted as not caring about males (the not doing anything about her clergy considering males 'less than worthy', which, afaik, isn't justified by anything written in any sourcebook).
Accepting only female priestesses (or forcing males into the changedance) is a thing (a deity has the right to choose his/her agents as he/she likes, after all. Even though in Eilistraee's case, for what she wants to do -I must admit- it doesn't make much sense), not caring about males, relegating them to 2nd class followers is a whole different matter and, according to what I've read around, that is the picture one gets from the novels, one that doesn't fit Eilistraee.
If they are going to bring her back in the Menzo book, or in any way, I'd like to see this gone though. The fact that she takes only female priestesses is probably related to her concept as a mother goddess, but look at the mess it caused...
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:48:23
-Selvetarm is the only Drow deity who really didn't need to exist as a deity. He would have been better suited as a powerful semi/non-divine champion of Lolth, since that was all he basically was. The small group of male Drow who worshiped him outside the influence of the clergy of Lolth in his Spider-Demon guise could have been heretics who some other deity (ironically, maybe even Lolth herself) was empowering.
-Kiaransalee, she is close, but she exists as an alternative to Lolth for evil females, just like Elistraee existed as an alternative for good females.
-Ghaundaur, he's just kind of there, but he's so relatively distant that there's no pressing reason to remove it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:30:52
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They were events meant just to deprive the setting (even if only in canon) of something, making Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to ''die'' pointlessly and removing the only thing that made drow interesting in my eyes (they're just a 'for powah and evulz' race without any depth for me now).
Lisa Smedman as much as confirmed that she was instructed to kill off every drow deity save Lolth when she wrote Lady Penitent. I just really, really hope that whoever told her to do that has either pulled their cranium from their nether regions, or has departed the company.
HERE HERE, totally agree with the sentiment that hopefully their cranium is no longer in their nether regions or that they've departed the company. I liked Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Kiaransalee all big time.... probably as much if not more than I liked Lolth. Now, the other drow deities.... meh... but they're enough of a power that I wouldn't begrudge them the other deities as well to have a pantheon in comparable size to the dwarves, elves, etc... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:25:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah well, it can't be an entirely meaningless death if it inspires talk of naked females dancing around. 
Ayrik,
You gotta realize... these weren't naked females... they were nekid... the difference is one is a beautiful artform... the other is just trying to be narsty bad girls that be needin' a spankin'... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:44:48
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@LK:
I don't think the gods have a metaphysical law that tells something like: you must kill anyone who attacks you and you manage to defeat, but I get your point that we actually don't know (the events could've been more blurred -like no Vhaeraun's corpse shown- though, to highlight this fact).
-I meant more along the lines of, if a deity is mortally wounded, lets say, his/her divine energy begins 'bleeding/seeping' out of them, and is absorbed by the nearest divine entity. If none is within some span of distance, the energy simply transports to the ether. Something like that. As far as I know, those specific rules don't exist, and I made them up off the top of my head, but that's what I meant- Eilistraee might have, as a matter of physical/metaphysical course, had no choice but to absorb Vhaeraun once wounded past a certain point. Like how through capillary action, two a larger drop of water will suck up a smaller one when in close proximity.
Got it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:38:26
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@LK:
I don't think the gods have a metaphysical law that tells something like: you must kill anyone who attacks you and you manage to defeat, but I get your point that we actually don't know (the events could've been more blurred -like no Vhaeraun's corpse shown- though, to highlight this fact).
-I meant more along the lines of, if a deity is mortally wounded, lets say, his/her divine energy begins 'bleeding/seeping' out of them, and is absorbed by the nearest divine entity. If none is within some span of distance, the energy simply transports to the ether. Something like that. As far as I know, those specific rules don't exist, and I made them up off the top of my head, but that's what I meant- Eilistraee might have, as a matter of physical/metaphysical course, had no choice but to absorb Vhaeraun once wounded past a certain point. Like how through capillary action, two a larger drop of water will suck up a smaller one when in close proximity. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:16:03
@OMH:
In fact i was neither judging the novels themselves, nor blaming anyone except the ones who made the RSE up (well, except for the happenings in which I feel Eilistraee and Vhaeraun acted out of their characters)
@LK:
I don't think the gods have a metaphysical law that tells something like: you must kill anyone who attacks you and you manage to defeat, but I get your point that we actually don't know (the events could've been more blurred -like no Vhaeraun's corpse shown- though, to highlight this fact).
And ofc I support the idea of an alliance between sister and brother (even if only temporary) as well. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Lisa Smedman as much as confirmed that she was instructed to kill off every drow deity save Lolth when she wrote Lady Penitent. I just really, really hope that whoever told her to do that has either pulled their cranium from their nether regions, or has departed the company.
That makes for no naked drow girls dancing in moonlight, and this is a Bad Thing. It also makes drow incredibly boring. Smedman left some 'outs' in her books - it would, in my opinion, behoove and benefit Wizbro to use them.
I wasn't blaming the author for the 'drowpocalypse', I know that she didn't just wake up a morning and decided to remove Eilistraee and Vhaeraun from the FR.
Still, IMHO (according to the things I've gathered around -like the ones in this scroll- since I didn't and won't read the novels), her writings aren't true to the characters. Of course, I don't know how much from it sprung from her mind and how much from WotC. So, with this, again, I'm not trying to discredit her. The novels could be very good afaik, if taken apart from characters behaving and dying in ways that, personally, I don't see fitting at all to what they are.
As for the outs, a fancy expedient can undo (almost) anything. It's up to them to use the loopholes and build E's and V's return around them and probably they're doing so.
Don't get me wrong, I know full well that the abominable concept of offing the drow deities was in no way Ms. Smedman's idea. I have no idea who came up with the idea, and in truth, I don't want to know...in case it is someone who has otherwise done good work, I would like my illusions left intact, thanks very much.
In an interview she did for the good folks over at The Chosen of Eilistraee, Ms. Smedman said she was given specific directions to kill off everyone but Lolth - these were not things she came up with herself. I believe she had the foresight to realize how hugely unpopular this idea would be, and so she left those 'outs' I mentioned, while at the same time fulfilling her writer's contract to the letter - an author has to eat, after all. Who can blame her? I think, in fact, we should be grateful that she was the one who wrote the books - had this been done in-house, the result could have bordered on the completely ruinous.
All Wizbro needs to do now is fix what they forced Ms. Smedman to break. And in fact, I think they should pay her to write the book that does it. She 'gets it'...I've not seen the evidence (yet, anyways) that Wizbro does. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:01:00
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Whatever, in that case Eilistraee would've sliced the form that blob of energy-Vhaeraun was assuming in that context. Still, as you said, It'd feel right if the whole save game and Eilistraee-Lolth dialogue scenes were just imaginary (and, in this way, the sliced Vhaeraun's corpse as well), also because two deities playing a game over a race would sound kinda weird to me if it was real.
-I always viewed those scenes as figurative of the events that were taking place. Something would happen, and we'd see a scene on the sava board that reflected what happened, symbolically demonstrating the deities pulling the strings and manipulating their followers into the course of action(s) that everyone took, Eilistraee, Lolth, Kiaransalee, and all of the other deities involved.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Besides, as I widely pointed out, my point also that Vhaeraun's death wasn't necessary to Eilistraee for self defense.
In my book it'd be way more fitting if, after the battle, instead of killing outright her brother (and giving up 'redeeming' him, as the sacrifice thing she said in the passage suggested) Eilistraee worked a truce (and a temporary alliance) with him.
-Well, we don't know that. And, seemingly, that is where everyone's point of contention is. We only know that Vhaeraun intruded into Eilistraee's divine realm, and that Vhaeraun ceased to exist afterwards, seemingly having been killed by Vhaeraun in a violent confrontation he presumably started. We don't know if his death was necessary or not for Eilistraee to protect herself. Not only do we not know the specifics of the situation, but we also don't know the metaphysical rules governing how deities operate.
-I personally believe that a truce was agreed upon by the two, in which they realized that separately, the status quo would be maintained, but united, they believed themselves able to dethrone Lolth, and in the intrim between when Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee's realm and when the Masked Lady appeared to her followers, that is what happened. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 14:43:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Defending is not the issue, the cutting into little pieces is the greater concern about being out of character for Eilistraee.
-Given that deities aren't physical creatures, but are simply sentient globs of divine energy that don't have any true form, Eilistraee cutting Vhaeraun into "little pieces" is simply imagery to describe the fact that she fought, and killed, her brother. If the issue is the 'savagery' of cutting anyone into little pieces, we know that it is a non-issue, because such dismemberment would have only been proverbial, not literal.
Whatever, in that case Eilistraee would've sliced the form that blob of energy-Vhaeraun was assuming in that context. Still, as you said, It'd feel right if the whole save game and Eilistraee-Lolth dialogue scenes were just imaginary (and, in this way, the sliced Vhaeraun's corpse as well), also because two deities playing a game over a race would sound kinda weird to me if it was real.
Besides, as I widely pointed out, my point also that Vhaeraun's death wasn't necessary to Eilistraee for self defense.
In my book it'd be way more fitting if, after the battle, instead of killing outright her brother (and giving up 'redeeming' him, as the sacrifice thing she said in the passage suggested) Eilistraee worked a truce (and a temporary alliance) with him. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 14:34:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Defending is not the issue, the cutting into little pieces is the greater concern about being out of character for Eilistraee.
-Given that deities aren't physical creatures, but are simply sentient globs of divine energy that don't have any true form, Eilistraee cutting Vhaeraun into "little pieces" is simply imagery to describe the fact that she fought, and killed, her brother. If the issue is the 'savagery' of cutting anyone into little pieces, we know that it is a non-issue, because such dismemberment would have only been proverbial, not literal.
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
It would be out of character for Eilistraee to deceive.
-While I do not agree, it isn't out of character for Vhaeraun to deceive. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 13:01:16
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
They are as ready to hate their enemies as any other drow. I believe that some of their activities is a little inflated. When hordes of enemies come to cut down followers in pieces, they do not think about redeeming them. They understand that many are already past redeemal.
Goal of Eilistraee is to find those few who want something more instead of doomed cycle or those who seek salvation those few jewels in sea of bloating malice. Followers do not try as futile attempts as mass preaching. Chosen are looking for other in the crowds, testing them and then contacting, taking out few out of thousands. That, with risk of being followed to their sanctuary to be massacred.
It is naive to think that everything started from redeemed drow. The base of her faith is little group of dark elves who were transformed despite not having anything to do with their aggressive kin, who, after becoming drow, were left in minority hunted down by other drow and scattered all over Underdark, still grasping onto faith in her. They moved the wishes of Eilistraee, giving chance to few individuals and slowly growing in ranks, not scores of confused misfits.
To prove the point, there is fact of 'evil culture' when many are bred to believe that this is life that should be and any other lifestyle is weak. Eilistraeeans take those who do not agree with it, not every who will listen. Redeem every drow you see? Out of hundred on who you will try it ninety will betray you. This is simply not what you talk about.
In some topic in these forums, THO explained that Ed meant Eilistraee as a loving mother goddess for the WHOLE drow race.
As such, she strongly believes that no drow is hopeless for redemption, and that every drow should have the right to actually live joyfully, rather than merely survive.
So, she would surely seek for those shining jewels who manage to understand that they're in truth oppressed and forced to live a non-life under Lolth, and want an alternative. But not everyone can manage to understand this alone, when they're being, as I said, literally indoctrinated. And Eilistraee wants to make them understand, to redeem them, to offer them a life because the concept that ALL drow aren't innately evil and that they can create wonderful things is at the very base of her belief (remember that even the Eilistraee followers who founded Miyeritar were exiles from Illythir, after all). She would try, no matter how hard it is, to open their mind and to free them from the deception of her mother because she is (and rightfully in many ways) convinced that it is Lolth's oppression who causes the drow to commit such evil (and this is the reason of her anger).
When a GODDESS like Lolth influences so heavily a race, shaping their society to her liking and indoctrinating them, starting in their childhood (evil society you pointed out), it is reasonable to think that just VERY few individuals would have the willpower to realize that they are being used as -basically- slaves by their goddess to further her revenge goals and that they in truth have a choice. So accepting only drow who spontaneously seek redemption and killing/ignoring the ones who don't, instead of giving them a chance, trying to actively promote understanding among all drow (when possible ofc) and bringing them out of all this crap, wouldn't fit Eilistraee (and her followers who actually follows her teachings) at all.
Now, I'm not saying walk among mobs of drow and talk to them (i.e. mass preaching), but if an Eilistraeen met some Lolthites, why would he/she kill them when his/her purpose would be to redeem them? If after a battle some of hostile drows are alive but wounded, why would Eilistraeens finish them, instead of showing them a different way?
You can't 'redeem' the ones who already refuse Lolth lifestyle, you can just support them. The drow you can redeem are the ones who are convinced that they are tied to do what Lolth says to survive, and 'redeem or die' won't work with those, it would just further their belief that what they were taught is right. Eilistraeens strength (what makes them appealing) is in their will to live as underdogs for this cause. You might say: the drow won't change their mind and will just betray you. But most of them, at the end, will change idea, because any human-like being would refuse the kind of life they're forced into. They keep living so because they're manipulated to such a point to make them think it is the only way. If you change this in their mind they will see it is not.
I don't care if in reality this would be stupid or naive. In fantasy it can be not and could actually succeed. To make wonderful things happen is the purpose of fantasy. Eilistraeens without their idealism would just be people who seek escape from Lolth and the underdark and the whole battle for the souls of the drow wouldn't exist at all. Lolth wouldn't even have a reason to consider her daughter a rival if all she wanted to do was helping the handful of drow who're already refusing her mother to live in the surface.
The way you depict things, instead, what was said at the end of LP trilogy would be actually true. Eilistraee wouldn't be needed anymore because her followers, who were 'willing' to redeem (they were the only shining jewels), regained elven-hood and ''pure miyeritari''(the potential shining jewels) were redeemed as well*, and the 'unwilling ' were 'casted down' (eh...). Instead this is just BS: the cause for which so many gave their lives, the life and freedom of a whole race, ends in a ''YOU'RE DOOMED! ALL DOOMED!'' meaningless crap because the vast majority of drow were 'unwilling' to redeem (and of course, even the ones not yet born, or the children, or the ones who never heard of Eilistraee, or never pondered the possibility that they have a choice because their mind is filled with dogma were unwilling. Seriously...). Thus making Eilistraee's sacrifice kind of pointless (well not pointless, but unjust).
*Even though they were actually not redeemed because the ones of them who were transformed while in the underdark died by drow/underdark hazards hand, while still thinking that Lolth was right and hers was the only way, not understanding that they had a choice. This big sudden redemption, at least for the miyeritari, isn't in Eilistraee's modus operandi at all because it doesn't come from the individual, but it is forced.
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| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 12:01:56
They are as ready to hate their enemies as any other drow. I believe that some of their activities is a little inflated. When hordes of enemies come to cut down followers in pieces, they do not think about redeeming them. They understand that many are already past redeemal.
Goal of Eilistraee is to find those few who want something more instead of doomed cycle or those who seek salvation those few jewels in sea of bloating malice. Followers do not try as futile attempts as mass preaching. Chosen are looking for other in the crowds, testing them and then contacting, taking out few out of thousands. That, with risk of being followed to their sanctuary to be massacred.
It is naive to think that everything started from redeemed drow. The base of her faith is little group of dark elves who were transformed despite not having anything to do with their aggressive kin, who, after becoming drow, were left in minority hunted down by other drow and scattered all over Underdark, still grasping onto faith in her. They moved the wishes of Eilistraee, giving chance to few individuals and slowly growing in ranks, not scores of confused misfits.
To prove the point, there is fact of 'evil culture' when many are bred to believe that this is life that should be and any other lifestyle is weak. Eilistraeeans take those who do not agree with it, not every who will listen. Redeem every drow you see? Out of hundred on who you will try it ninety will betray you. This is simply not what you talk about. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 11:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Actually, lifestyle of their communities already shown it is possible. Many evil drow squirm with disgust when they hear of 'drow-impostors' who preach of good life free of old ways. Tribes consisting of Eilistraeeans are fundamentally different just by showing that they can do what they do - live peacefully without need to kill each other for power or raiding on other races. Only the most faithful believe that they can convert even someone who charges at her with rabid saliva and ready sword. Reality of the Realms is much sadder.
This is conflict of preaching and at the same time survival against aggressive forces. Vhaeuraun came to assassinate Eilistraee. All she could do was defend against someone who is in his own power formidable foe. If he moved at last after so many schemes, that meant that he is done with pleasantries with no intention to parley. Risk was too great.
The drow perceives other races as weak, so they don't count in showing them that alternatives are possible because they think that their lifestyle drove them into weakness. Other drow, instead, could do it. They squirm with disgust at Eilistraeens because they are, well, indoctrinated by what is thrown at them since their birth. They are strongly convinced that the value of life, the dignity of the person is nothing and only power and authority over others, obtained with violence, deception and murder matters and makes people strong, because it is the only reliable way to survive (what Lolth imposes to them).
Eilistraee wants to change their mind about this by showing them kindness, beauty and joy, not forcefully, but if you kill anyone who's hostile then you're basically saying ''redeem or die'', not trying to make him/her understand, thus showing that he/she is actually right. It must be Eilistraeens to make the first step, you can't expect indoctrinated people to do that. It may look 'naive' or even stupid to you, but that is what makes them great in my eyes. They would not surrender to hate, adversities and prejudice to free the drow from what they were (unjustly in many senses) doomed to and further their goddess' goal.
If you deprive Eilistraee and her followers of this idealism (saying that only fanatics could hope to redeem the drow), you're really killing their flavor and feeling. They would just be tree-huggers who want to live in peace and dance naked in the woods (nothing against that ofc , still they wouldn't be appealing to me). While the 'reality' of the realms might be sadder, in a high fantasy world this should not discourage ideals like the ones Eilistraee promotes, but it should do the vice-verse.
If I wanted to hear about sad reality and pointless deaths, I'd watch the news of the day.
As for Vhaeraun, after the defeat Eilistraee could've talked him into a temporary truce instead of slicing him into pieces. After all, she had the upper hand. It would've been more fitting for her character and would've kept her feeling. She would've been ready to take the risk because that is what she is. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 10:51:51
Actually, lifestyle of their communities already shown it is possible. Many evil drow squirm with disgust when they hear of 'drow-impostors' who preach of good life free of old ways. Tribes consisting of Eilistraeeans are fundamentally different just by showing that they can do what they do - live peacefully without need to kill each other for power or raiding on other races. Only the most faithful believe that they can convert even someone who charges at her with rabid saliva and ready sword. Reality of the Realms is much sadder.
This is conflict of preaching and at the same time survival against aggressive forces. Vhaeuraun came to assassinate Eilistraee. All she could do was defend against someone who is in his own power formidable foe. If he moved at last after so many schemes, that meant that he is done with pleasantries with no intention to parley. Risk was too great. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 10:33:05
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Teachings of Eilistraee do promote peace and understanding. But that is nothing like other pacifistic faiths. Favoring peace over war does not make her or her teachings obsolete with killing in self-defense, especially in her situation. Violence is not always avoidable, especially in longterm redeemal. So many battles between drow faiths and organisations were cleared with sword in hands. It is understandable, since their turning away from Lolth will be met only with fury and revenge. Who else thwarts plans of mad power-hungry priestesses of Abyssal mistress in root when many don't even know about these dangers?
Vhaerun and his followers made pretty brutal expansions against elven people, one of them resulting in birth of Selvetarm. Many of evil drow activities on surface are his doings.
Sure, as I said, death is sometimes needed to survival. But once you defeated the very people you are trying to redeem, killing them rather than showing them acceptance or even giving the wounded shelter (like Eilistraee's dogma says) would make no sense if your goal is to change their mind. Eilistraeens should give the other drow proof that a different life is possible, the same as before the Descent. Instead, they would show that killing and violence are, most of the times, the only way to survive and that for some drow there's no hope to redemption and this is what Eilistraee is trying to remove from drow minds (Silverhair Knights are the living proof of that). Once Eilistraee defeated Vhaeraun (if things actually went as in the novels and they did not team up, even if temporary), she didn't need to kill him. And even though he's 'evil', he's not nearly as hopeless as Lolth. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 10:22:48
Teachings of Eilistraee do promote peace and understanding. But that is nothing like other pacifistic faiths. Favoring peace over war does not make her or her teachings obsolete with killing in self-defense, especially in her situation. Violence is not always avoidable, especially in longterm redeemal. So many battles between drow faiths and organisations were cleared with sword in hands. It is understandable, since their turning away from Lolth will be met only with fury and revenge. Who else thwarts plans of mad power-hungry priestesses of Abyssal mistress in root when many don't even know about these dangers?
Vhaerun and his followers made pretty brutal expansions against elven people, one of them resulting in birth of Selvetarm. Many of evil drow activities on surface are his doings. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 09:59:11
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Hope for followers, perhaps. But deity that betrayed Corellon over position of Greater Deity, transformed through forces of Abyss and demanding souls to devour each day by destroying any signs of affection and other good emotions trying to emerge from twisted by her teaching drow souls? Not likely.
Vhaeraun didn't do that (except the betrayal). I don't think she would try to redeem Lolth, but only because she's the source of drow evil and oppression. By killing Vhaeraun, instead, she not only went against her beliefs but also gave a bad example to her followers
Eilistraee wants the drow to UNDERSTAND that, unlike what Lolth with her indoctrination wants them to believe, they are free to choose their life, not constricted by utterly self destructive rules, free from the belief that individuals have intrinsically no value, the life that they forgot while shackled by Lolth's dogma and oppression.
Because the lifestyle of endless and consuming contrasts and ruthless killing (etc...) they were imposed since their birth isn't the only one that allows survival, unlike what they are convinced of.
She tries to make the drow undertsand it by showing them the joy of life, by kindly luring them (dance, song, beauty, acts of kindness...) to what she wishes for them and not by forcing it, not by VIOLENCE. This is because Eilistraee wants each drow to find his/her own personal way to freedom (which must come his/her understanding), to open his/her mind to different possibilities of life other than ''everyone's a potential enemy to dominate, torture, abuse and, eventually, kill in order to survive''.
By killing Vhaeraun, she shows them that this is not so possible, that trying to make someone who's hostile to change his/her mind is actually not affordable. Thing is, by killing drows who are hostile in their regards instead of trying -when possible (and it was possible when Vhaeraun attacked her)- to show them mercy and, somehow, acceptance isn't going to get Eilistraeens much success in redemption (sure, I see that sometimes killing is needed to self defense, like when a raiding party attacks but, for example, even in this case, once defeated, the wounded attackers left behind should not be killed); they would be telling the drow, even if indirectly, that what they do is actually hopeless.
I hope to have made my point clear.
quote:
Initially, only her raw power prevented open conflict between much weaker daughter and her. And cryptic promise of swift retaliation by Corellon if Eilistraee is to die was possible reason of Lolth not crushing her outright. However, it seemed that some of designers decided to ignore it when ordering execution, so, with great interest of many fans and that, they need to look for loophole to not dive into dirt.
This, along with Corellon stepping in at the end, is the reason because of some people believe that he actually managed to save both his children. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 09:26:31
Hope for followers, perhaps. But deity that betrayed Corellon over position of Greater Deity, transformed through forces of Abyss and demanding souls to devour each day by destroying any signs of affection and other good emotions trying to emerge from twisted by her teaching drow souls? Not likely.
Initially, only her raw power prevented open conflict between much weaker daughter and her. And cryptic promise of swift retaliation by Corellon if Eilistraee is to die was possible reason of Lolth not crushing her outright. However, it seemed that some of designers decided to ignore it when ordering execution, so, with great interest of many fans and that, they need to look for loophole to not dive into dirt. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 09:15:07
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
While the novel was not entirely good written, we should say that feuds of gods are much greater in enmity than mortal feuds. They exist for millenias and in case of E, V and L, family ties are really last thing that may prevent their violent battle with chance presented. It is naive to think that she still thinks of them capable of redeeming after so many time watching them, even if such idea crossed her mind in beginning of exile.
It is Eilistraee. She's strongly convinced that there's always hope to redemption and she will tirelessly try to make people understand that they do not have to just go 'for powah', because they have a choice, for a different kind of life is possible. It might look 'naive', but this idealism is one of the main traits of Eilistraee and if you remove it, you'll take away her feeling. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 09:07:25
While the novel was not entirely good written, we should say that feuds of gods are much greater in enmity than mortal feuds. They exist for millenias and in case of E, V and L, family ties are really last thing that may prevent their violent battle with chance presented. It is naive to think that she still thinks of them capable of redeeming after so many time watching them, even if such idea crossed her mind in beginning of exile. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 08:41:27
quote:
Chaotic doesn't mean she's willing to deceive. I would have a hard time to believe she even could deceive someone, that's how out of character it would be in my eyes.
I don't see her as a deceiver as well. In fact I said that probably it'd not be in her character. However, again, as I said, that was just an example (a weak one maybe, I admit) to not make Vhaeraun's defeat to look even more pointless than his sister's.
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When slicing is enough to kill. Normally it's not enough to kill a God. That's why she could intentionally slice him up, but not try to kill him. As simple as that.
And there's the possibility that she sliced him up unintentionally, in a rage. That's in character, because her description does say that she's furious in combat.
You get my point. If things are as they appear to be in the novels, then Eilistraee willingly killed Vhaeraun (and in such a bloody way). Even she confirmed it, with the sacrifice thing she said. By doing so, she gave up redeeming her brother and I see this as a problem because, quoting myself:
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That said, I strongly believe Eilistraee would've never given up redeeming his brother because it is one of her characterizing traits to believe that there's always hope to change someone's mind, to show him/her that a different kind of life is possible. And if she does that with apparently hopelessly indoctrinated Lolth priestesses, why would this not apply to her own brother?
Also, fury in battle is a thing. Behaving as a meat grinder is another. You can't slice up someone in ''unintentional fury'' (as you said). That'd be a thing that Garagos would do, but would be the opposite of Eilistraee.
I think I've made my point clear and we're just repeating ourselves now, though.
quote:
Lisa Smedman as much as confirmed that she was instructed to kill off every drow deity save Lolth when she wrote Lady Penitent. I just really, really hope that whoever told her to do that has either pulled their cranium from their nether regions, or has departed the company.
That makes for no naked drow girls dancing in moonlight, and this is a Bad Thing. It also makes drow incredibly boring. Smedman left some 'outs' in her books - it would, in my opinion, behoove and benefit Wizbro to use them.
I wasn't blaming the author for the 'drowpocalypse', I know that she didn't just wake up a morning and decided to remove Eilistraee and Vhaeraun from the FR.
Still, IMHO (according to the things I've gathered around -like the ones in this scroll- since I didn't and won't read the novels), her writings aren't true to the characters. Of course, I don't know how much from it sprung from her mind and how much from WotC. So, with this, again, I'm not trying to discredit her. The novels could be very good afaik, if taken apart from characters behaving and dying in ways that, personally, I don't see fitting at all to what they are.
As for the outs, a fancy expedient can undo (almost) anything. It's up to them to use the loopholes and build E's and V's return around them and probably they're doing so.
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They didn't? O.o I thought it's kinda obvious that they did.
quote:
Tell it to the author.
I was trying to explain you, Imp, what I meant by saying that the novels were just meant to take off the Dark Seldarine. Of course it is obvious that they did, but they didn't feel as a natural development of the struggle between Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and their mother. This RSE felt like a machination intended to brutally resolve this contrast (beside removing two very interesting deities) which should instead never end because it gives depth the drow as a race, but to build up nothing.
Do you see what I mean now?
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| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 08:00:18
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They were events meant just to deprive the setting (even if only in canon) of something, making Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to ''die'' pointlessly and removing the only thing that made drow interesting in my eyes (they're just a 'for powah and evulz' race without any depth for me now).
Lisa Smedman as much as confirmed that she was instructed to kill off every drow deity save Lolth when she wrote Lady Penitent. I just really, really hope that whoever told her to do that has either pulled their cranium from their nether regions, or has departed the company.
That makes for no naked drow girls dancing in moonlight, and this is a Bad Thing. It also makes drow incredibly boring. Smedman left some 'outs' in her books - it would, in my opinion, behoove and benefit Wizbro to use them. |
| Imp |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 04:49:01
quote:
Probably, but I'm not so sure about it(she's chaotic after all).
Chaotic doesn't mean she's willing to deceive. I would have a hard time to believe she even could deceive someone, that's how out of character it would be in my eyes.
quote:
If you sliced someone into pieces, then you'd be willingly killing him/her.
When slicing is enough to kill. Normally it's not enough to kill a God. That's why she could intentionally slice him up, but not try to kill him. As simple as that.
And there's the possibility that she sliced him up unintentionally, in a rage. That's in character, because her description does say that she's furious in combat.
quote:
Even if a novel is meant to take off some characters, it should do it by giving them justice.
Tell it to the author. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:26:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah well, it can't be an entirely meaningless death if it inspires talk of naked females dancing around.
 |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:22:33
Ah well, it can't be an entirely meaningless death if it inspires talk of naked females dancing around. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:12:02
quote:
It would be out of character for Eilistraee to deceive.
Probably, but I'm not so sure about it(she's chaotic after all). Still, I meant it just as an example (as I specified) to offer an alternative to a meaningless death.
quote:
Who said she gave up?
Eilistraee said sacrifices are to be made (or something along those lines) even though, in this case, sacrifice could've been avoided.
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But can be an unfortunate and unintentional consequence.
If you sliced someone into pieces, then you'd be willingly killing him/her. If you willingly killed him/her, you'd be giving up redeeming him/her. As simple as that.
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They didn't? O.o I thought it's kinda obvious that they did.
They were events meant just to deprive the setting (even if only in canon) of something, making Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to ''die'' pointlessly and removing the only thing that made drow interesting in my eyes (they're just a 'for powah and evulz' race without any depth for me now).
Even if a novel is meant to take off some characters, it should do it by giving them justice.
These ones didn't (not judging how they were written, or how they can be enjoyable. I'm saying that the events could've been different). [
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| Imp |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:04:36
quote:
It would've been waaay more fitting for both of them (at least in my eyes) if they decided to temporary team up and Vhaeraun's corpse was, for example, just fake, something planned because they, for some reason, wanted to deceive Lolth about this matter.
It would be out of character for Eilistraee to deceive.
quote:
The death of the attacker isn't necessary to self defense.
But can be an unfortunate and unintentional consequence.
quote:
That said, I strongly believe Eilistraee would've never given up redeeming his brother because it is one of her characterizing traits to believe that there's always hope to change someone's mind, to show him/her that a different kind of life is possible. And if she does that with apparently hopelessly indoctrinated Lolth priestesses, why would this not apply to her own brother?
Who said she gave up? It's kinda hard to redeem a dead guy and Eilistraee thought that her brother was dead (true or not), so she really didn't gave up, but just couldn't do it.
quote:
The way things appear to be, instead, Vhaeraun ''died'' even more pointlessly than his sister and in a stupid way. This just adds up to the feeling that the books were written only to remove them from the setting.
They didn't? O.o I thought it's kinda obvious that they did. |
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