| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 00:53:06
I've run a lot of urban campaigns where the player characters are either criminals or hang around with a lot of criminals. In general, I think I have a fairly good grasp of how to portray Realmsian underworld figures, as they have a good deal in common with Early Modern English ones and up to around 19th century on both sides of the Atlantic.
One thing has always puzzled me, though.
I'm aware that Faerun is far richer than medieval Earth. Average real wage appears to be at 19th century levels, possibly even equivalent to the brief era of prosperity around 1900. Trade is extensive, the rich are super, duper rich and unlike most of real history, less than 95% of people are subsidence farmers, pastoralists or hunter-gatherers.
All the same, not everyone is super rich. I've learned to ignore some of the D&D books that provide wages for various jobs and hirelings, because while some jobs are about right, others don't fit the information given in setting specific stuff.*
Every time we see a reference to an extremely low 'yearly wage' or something, we ought to consider that this probably only takes into account the coins he sees, not the value of other goods he might receive. A prime example is the farmer, who might not see many coins, but who provides himself and his family with enough food to live, which could be converted into a fairly high salary if we went by the city price of all the foodstuffs.
Nevertheless, it is not implausible that many people live on less than 1 gp per day for all their life. For some, much less. It is canon and I have no special reason to doubt it, that there exist in large towns and cities so called 'copperheads', i.e. transient, down-on-their-luck men who work for 1 cp per hour, maybe with lunch and dinner thrown in if they are lucky. That's a monthly pay of less than 3 gp.
Compare this to the price per dose for drugs in Faerun. Tekkil, a painkiller often abused in a similar way as morphine costs 5 gp per dose. That is, it costs more for a single dose than minimum wage for a month. Mordayn vapour, a hallucinogenic, costs 200 gp per dose.**
By contrast, a 'dose' of most street drugs throughout history and today on our Earth will be going for something that people who frequent the street can actually afford. The cost may be slightly more than a meal at a fast-food price, but it's less than enough alcohol at a bar to become drunk. While addicts may have difficulty affording enough to feed their habit, that's because addicts generally have very low income and tend to require doses multiple times over each day, not because the street drug is astronomical in cost for a single dose.
If the drugs that are listed as specific to the Realms are too expensive for low-ranking criminals or unfortunate street people to ever buy a single dose, what drugs do such people use? What drugs are available in 1 sp doses on the street corners? Where does one go with a single gold piece in one's pocket and a desire to forget everything for a good long while?
Now that I've finished the post, I can see that I should perhaps have kept it more general. This also impacts something I was thinking about in regards to herbs with medicinal properties listed in 3e books. While I can imagine someone charging a rich-looking adventurer these prices for them, many of the 'lifestyle' herbs would be of limited utility if ordinary people could not somehow pay the herbalist for them.
Given that at least some herbs are available with a few hours of gathering for people with the right know-how, shouldn't some of these minor herbs be much less expensive? Counting all the produce eaten by a farmer and his family, a reasonable monthly wage for one would be ca 30 gp, with almost all of that in consumable goods that go directly toward cost of living.
If a farmer's wife learned to pick certain herbs, isn't it advantageous for her to sell them to her neighbours in exchange for something that she would like? Pricing them at 5 gp or something similar obviously just makes it impossible for the neighbours to afford, which doesn't help anyone.
It's much more sensible for the farmer's wife to take anything which she could not herself gather in the same time in exchange. For example, if she can gather particular herbs in two hours, but is a horrible cobbler, she might be glad to take a pair of simple straw shoes for them, as making them would take her at least eight hours.
It just seems really off to me that just because certain plants have beneficial qualities that are more powerful than any we are used to in the real world (and we would thus call 'magic'), they have to be priced out of the market. Given that anyone who is taught to recognise certain plants can make use of them, they ought not be all that expensive while they last.*** And given that humans haven't yet managed to settle Faerun all that densely, a lot of plants would last pretty long, even if picked at a rapid pace.
*For one thing, you can't pay a professional soldier effectively the same wage as an unskilled day labourer, especially not if the value of loot on his typical foe is half a year's pay for him. Nope, not a chance.
**We'll ignore drugs which actually have some other uses than recreational ones, because it's plausible that these could still be sold even if addicts can't afford them.
***Sadly, as long as they only grow wild, the tragedy of the commons ensures that because no one owns them until they are gathered and because anyone who knows how to find them can trade them for something that would otherwise cost him more effort to get, there exists an incentive to gather as much as possible before others do so. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 16:29:09
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Indeed, Elyril is a lurid case of a severe drug addict in FR lore.
Mirabeta is, too. Or so are most Sembian nobles, most probably. Though Mirabeta is one that can be called a 'moderate' or 'responsible' user. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 00:12:44
-We know from the novel Black Bouquet that the clergy of Shar does just that, distributing drugs to 'cultists', who worship Shar but are not members of her clergy proper. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 00:34:56
Yaphyll made that concoction herself. When taken in small amount, it's hardly fatal. But for maximum results, Szass Tam forced her to swallow the whole thing, thus the dangerous effects. An entire bottle or jar...[I'll check it later to be certain.] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 22:06:05
In another novel, Szass Tam forced Yaphyll to consume some special substance (a leaf, I think) while she cast a potent divination. It was unclear to me whether this substance was just a rare component for a dangerous spell or if it had mind altering and/or phrophetic-hallucinating-insanity properties on its own which magnified the outcome (and risks) of an otherwise standard spellcasting. Yaphyll's babbling cryptically warned of the coming Spellplague, then she died rather promptly. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 22:00:31
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Aye, definately. It could be that certain drugs get a (bad) reputation and its prices are inflated by such enforcement agencies (of which I think certain clergy are the prime candidates).
Yeah, just to use alcohol as an example again, if some people were making low-grade hooch and selling it, and some noble's son (maybe the prince's cousin) went blind as a result.... there might be strictures put in place to prevent people who don't have a license from manufacturing and selling such. Similar could happen with pretty much any similar abusable substance. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 20:14:12
Indeed, Elyril is a lurid case of a severe drug addict in FR lore.
The Sharran cults and cells around Faerun are likely to provide drugs that enduce feelings of paranoia and loss, as the collective emotion those drugs produce empower Shars portfolio of loss and forgetfulness. The presence of rivals in an urban environment demanding drugs (most clergies and governmental organisations fall in this category for Sharrans) would result in the cells operating clandestinely.
The magical powers of these cells give them an edge over smaller pushers of drugs. I expect that most drug traffic would very quickly be controlled by Sharrans in a city with their presence. As a Sharran cell tries to impose a hierarchy on drug profits, they'd have a significant advantage over regular traders with their threat of magic use. Compulsary suggestions, mind alteration and charm spells can quickly turn up dirt for blackmail and leverage on crime lords, who are wise to follow up upon Sharran demands. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 18:31:46
Ah, I could see clergy of Sharess handing out recreational drugs, those worshipping Talona simply handing out addictive poisons, followers of Tyr blindly seizing all contraband they encounter, and those worshipping Mask or Waukeen not caring about the drugs themselves as anything more than valuable commodities in lucrative markets.
I think anyone in his right mind should be apprehensive when offered some Moanderweed or Jergaldust.
Incidentally, one of the characters in Shadowbred is addicted to a substance named mind-dust. She constantly hallucinates, is delusional, paranoid, hatefully psychopathic, wobbles around manically, and is generally quite insane. These are all symptoms of mind-dust addiction, although the character firmly believes these manifestations are all signs and gifts of power from Shar. The book is written in such a way that even the reader cannot ever be sure. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 18:14:39
Aye, definately. It could be that certain drugs get a (bad) reputation and its prices are inflated by such enforcement agencies (of which I think certain clergy are the prime candidates). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 14:51:07
-I could envision the enforcement via an official government or the enforcement via an unofficial entity (crime lord, street gang, etc.) on specific types of drugs. Things along the lines of 'Our government is not going to import/allow the sale of some substance from this place as a measure to protect our own growers', or 'Our gang is going to hastle, harry and give anyone who buys a substance from anyone that is not us'. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You seem to already have all the answers you want, Icelander. Whether drugs are present in your campaign and what they might do really all boils down to "DM's discretion".
Well, I know how real world drugs should/would work.
And, yes, I can decide on my own where various plants grow in the Realms. I might even manage to have it make some sort of ecological sense.
On the other hand, I would prefer to have scribes point me to canon mentions of drugs that seem more like real-world ones than the fantastically expensive ones of LoD, if any such exist.
Also, I'm wondering if any substances ought to be illegal to sell, possess or consume, and if so, where and what substances? I think that Ed said something about other things than tobacco being smoked on a fairly regular basis, which probably means that all sorts of herbal pipeweed would not constitute 'drugs' in the Realms, but just different kinds of smokes.
I'm almost positive that there are no general laws against mind-altering substances, since it would have been mentioned if adventurers were regularly arrested over their Potions of Heroism or Vitality.
There might be idiosyncratic laws against individual substances that have grown very popular somewhere, much like laws against tobacco in the 16th and 17th century on Earth and later laws about gin or absinthe. I doubt they'd be common, though, as few polities could afford the massive enforcement it would mean to actually have such laws. Cormyr and Waterdeep could theoretically try, being fantastically rich, and as we know they have such rules against smokepowder, the enforcement side would be familiar to them.
I might want to ask Ed, of course. He is very busy, though, so I'd be lucky to get an answer in a year or two.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:32:23
You seem to already have all the answers you want, Icelander. Whether drugs are present in your campaign and what they might do really all boils down to "DM's discretion". |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 20:54:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Alchemy might accomplish anything; look at things like potion of giant strength, potion of superheroism, potion of haste, and of course all those wonderfully rare varied elixirs presented by Volo. Magic is power, and it can be concentrated into liquid or powder forms. I think the elixir of vitality is fairly representative of how much power "normal" alchemy can imbue to an end-user ... it can basically sustain a man at optimum alertness and health for nine full days without any negative effects.
Ah, okay. To be fair, I was using a distinction between 'alchemy' and 'magic' that might not have been fully clear.
Alchemy, the way I view it, is the skill of using natural (or unnatural, I suppose) materials that are in themselves magical to produce a finished product with given properties. It does not demand the ability to cast spells, only enough magical awareness to work with magical substances.
Most of the potions listed in magial item lists, however, while they may demand alchemical skills, are made by a real spellcaster, who uses his own magic to produce a substance. While he may use innately magical substances as incredients, the final result may be a lot more powerful than any of them could have been without his magic.
I see the very expensive potions, including Potions of Healing and suchlike, as the products of spellcasting ability combined with knowledge of either alchemy or herbalism, depending on flavour.
The more minor things, herbalism concoctions that are only slightly better than real herbs or alchemical compounds that duplicate something that more advanced chemistry in our world can do, are the sort I mean when I say 'alchemy'. Something less powerful than a typical spell, but more useful than real-world medicine, chemistry, etc. in the pre-modern period, because Toril has innately magical substances.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The distinction I'm making is that biochemistry is finely tuned and self-regulating, every substance which somehow alters or enhances normal function will come with a tradeoff and a price. Opposed to magic, which is an infusion of something supernatural that isn't required to observe such restrictions, magic changes normal rules by definition.
The tradeoff isn't always crippling or even significant. A lot of chemicals provide us with benefits with few drawbacks, except ones that are rare enough for even security-obsessed organisations to sign off on them.
Over-the-counter painkillers aren't likely to cause any drawbacks significant in game terms or even noticable to a normal human, as long as they are not used in clearly dumb ways*.
By the same token, all sorts of stimulants exist which have limited side-effect when used for their intended purpose and in normal dosages. Even the dangers that they carry with them when abused are primarily of the sort that causes a '0.1%' chance of heart failure, concentrated on those with weak hearts, not always a significant risk to healthy adventurers who take greater risks daily.
A lot of armed forces use stimulants for operational purposes and though lawyers make much of impaired judgment under their influence, actual testing reveals that the impairment is monumentally less significant than the impairment of sleep-deprivation without any chemical assistance. While sustained use without rest will have much the same effects as sustained attempts to avoid sleep by any other means, i.e. fairly high odds of psychological problems and a skyrocketing failure rate and reduced awareness, 'sustained use' refers to a pretty long period. A couple of days without sleep will usually not have any significant effects.
I'm in an interesting position to evaluate empirical evidence on this, by the way, as I am an occasional user of various stimulants for purposes of recreation, study and work and I also have a prescription drug regimen that is functionally very similar to amphetamines, as well as some newly discovered parallels with cocaine.**
I've stayed awake for ca a week with caffeine only, with ca a weekend without any chemicals but sugar, fat and other nutritions, about five days with prescription stimulants and ca a weekend with non-prescription ones.
My experience is that I was capable of more concentration, better situational awareness and better judgment while on periodic stimulant doses than with any other method. This is borne out by test results. I have never had any side-effects from this other than a desire to sleep in the day after a turn of not-sleeping.
I've actually never had a hallucination of any kind, but I've gotten a lot closer on various opioids and other drugs used for hospital operations than with any stimulants or sleep-deprivation.
What I've learned beyond a doubt, at least for me, is that a lot of the time, using chemicals to alter the biochemistry of my body when I needed certain performance or to suppress certain natural reactions, was a hell of a lot better than not doing it. I've had my hand broken up and reset without painkillers and it's not at all better than doing it with them. Similarly, when I've not been able to sleep because I've had to perform some task, it's a hell of a lot better to chemically suppress the feeling of fatigue than just powering through it.
For one thing, you can't perform mental tasks well enough while tired, which militaries around the world recognise as they limit people with complex technical jobs from carrying them out for too many hours without rest and train officers to rest periodically so that their decisions are better when they have to make them. Chemicals can extend the time one can retain judgment and awareness without sleep and while they don't preserve 100% function forever, 80-90% function for a couple of days is a hell of a lot better than what we naturally get.
*Eating all the pills.
**Methylphenidate, in case anyone was curious.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This might be complicated in the Realms since the two are probably inextricably entwined; an alchemist's stimulant might be magically "inert" yet still achieve the impossible through means of the magic he uses to produce it. I think it's quite easy for people to get addicted to any substance, whether it be magical or not.
We must distinguish between physical addiction and a mental habit. People can get psychologically addicted to gambling or WoW, but that doesn't mean that these are addictive substances.
In our world, stimulants are rarely very physically addictive. In fact, some doctors have questioned the use of the term when the observed symptoms may be adequately explained by psychological dependency. In any event, if the substance is similar to ephedrine, amphetamines or cocaine, it will not be all that physically addictive.
On the other hand, if none of the above exist or are practical in the Realms, this substance could be something entirely unknown to our medical science. In which case it could be physically addictive.
If so, however, I'd need a good explanation for why a master alchemist would be using it. With about the same level of chemical know-how as alchemists in the Realms have shown*, we know from Earth that certain substances are easily made. Only if none of the plants and materials necessary exist or at least, are known to Faerunians, would it make sense to go with something much more dangerous than what Earth-humans use.
Or, of course, because it is much more effective, which makes up for the danger. Which is possible, but not likely. After all, the gnome had it with him in case he was engrossed in a project and needed some extra hours of full wakefulness and attention. It wasn't meant to make him superfast or keep him aware for weeks.
*Which is pretty damn high.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems unlikely a stimulant would contain coca since opiates are characterized by inducing a sleepy tired state. Murlak the Merchant might be getting himself addicted to speed, and he might begin to get very twitchy and irritable until he starts sleeping normally again.
Coca leaves contain a natural stimulant alkaloid. There's no opiate in them.
Speed is more-or-less a semi-synthesised version of ephedrine, which, in turn, is another natural stimulant alkaloid. The differences are numerous, of course, but the important part, i.e. keeping people awake, is present in all these substances.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Is Murlak's alchemist business partner an apothecary or a drug pusher, does he really have a comprehensive understanding of how his dust affects people? How would he react to hyperanxious and half-schizophrenic Murlak with paranoid bloodshot eyes angrily demanding to immediately purchase more of this dust after he runs out?
He's approximately a 12th level Illusionist, in D&D terms, and he's a master alchemist with a very good understanding of chemistry. He knows little about the human body, though, beyond a theoretical understanding appropriate to a natural scientist.
I hadn't decided whether the dust was his own invention or some common recipie, though. I would like it not to be his invention, as it makes a lot more sense to me as something that a lot of alchemists know how to do, just as any alchemist could distil alcohol, even if he could not necessarily make good wine. All it would take was a plant that included a natural stimulant and an alchemist could probably make a dust that included a lot more of that stimulant.
What I wonder the most about is whether such a plant is common in the Realms, where it would grow, whether no such plant exists and the equivalent had to be synthesised* and so on.
As for how Karamazzar the Magnificent would react if Murlak told him he had to get more? He'd repeat his warning about not skipping too much sleep and then tell him where the raw materials were to be found. If he was brought more of those, he'd make more snuff.
*Which would, indeed, make it equivalent to speed, yes. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 18:21:07
Alchemy might accomplish anything; look at things like potion of giant strength, potion of superheroism, potion of haste, and of course all those wonderfully rare varied elixirs presented by Volo. Magic is power, and it can be concentrated into liquid or powder forms. I think the elixir of vitality is fairly representative of how much power "normal" alchemy can imbue to an end-user ... it can basically sustain a man at optimum alertness and health for nine full days without any negative effects.
If drugs in the Realms are made alchemically, as I'm sure some must be, then it might be reasonable to cap them with comparable limits - much would depend on the qualities of the reagents and the alchemist. Murlak's dust of wakefulness might be able to keep him going indefinitely, or perhaps for only about a week or two before adverse effects occur; he might fall into a comatose torpor for a full week afterwards, or begin to suffer from dreamlike hallucinations while awake until he stops using the substance and catches up on sleep.
If these drugs are made chemically then they could have all sorts of pharmaceutical effects just as they do in our world. I assume alchemy includes some chemistry, and that alchemists might be able to synthesize Realms-LSD, or perhaps they have ten dozen species of nightshade (each with differing medicinal affects) while we only have access to the one variety named atropa belladonna. Imagine the possibilities when necromantic magic gets applied to otherwise mundane ingredients.
The distinction I'm making is that biochemistry is finely tuned and self-regulating, every substance which somehow alters or enhances normal function will come with a tradeoff and a price. Opposed to magic, which is an infusion of something supernatural that isn't required to observe such restrictions, magic changes normal rules by definition. This might be complicated in the Realms since the two are probably inextricably entwined; an alchemist's stimulant might be magically "inert" yet still achieve the impossible through means of the magic he uses to produce it. I think it's quite easy for people to get addicted to any substance, whether it be magical or not.
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems unlikely a stimulant would contain coca since opiates are characterized by inducing a sleepy tired state. Murlak the Merchant might be getting himself addicted to speed, and he might begin to get very twitchy and irritable until he starts sleeping normally again.
Is Murlak's alchemist business partner an apothecary or a drug pusher, does he really have a comprehensive understanding of how his dust affects people? How would he react to hyperanxious and half-schizophrenic Murlak with paranoid bloodshot eyes angrily demanding to immediately purchase more of this dust after he runs out? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:51:58
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Are there equivalents to cannabis, coca leaves, khat, ergine, opium poppies and the numerous other Earth plants that have been used as intoxicants? Where do they grow? How are they used in different cultures?
-In Elves of Faerű, a plant known as "Dreamleaves" was detailed:
quote:
Dream Leaves are often used in Wood Elf rituals and ceremonies, most commonly vision quests, and to make contact with their animal spirit guides. A few other Druidic circles around the Realms also use these leaves for roughly the same purposes. In a few metropolitan areas, like Waterdeep, or Baldur’s Gate, Dream Leaves are also used by the rich, as a novelty, and by the downtrodden and disenfranchised, to escape reality for a brief period.
The plant itself grows about ankle high, in heavily wooded areas, under, or next to large trees. The plant consists of a central stem that is more akin to a vine than anything else, roots, a small bud at the top, and leaves that slowly grow over the course of the year. The central stem is reddish near the roots, and progressively gets greener and greener the further up you observe. It is quite thin, only being about a finger length in diameter. The bud at the top of the stem, which looks like a tiny, rust-colored acorn, is prickly, as to attach itself to anything that brushes against the plant. When the seed is mature, it grows a small five-petal red flower, which attracts animal life to it. The roots of the plant do not dig very deep into the ground. If multiple root tendrils are ingested, they actually induce nausea and vomiting (DC 5).
The small leaves that grow towards the bottom of the plant are green, with a yellow stripe going down their center. The leaves are roughly heart-shaped, with the tip facing outwards, although some variation exists from plant to plant. The plant is hardy, and does not hibernate during the winter, although it grows very slowly during this time.
The leaves of this plant are cultivated. They are dried in a variety of methods, depending on who harvested them, and then crushed into small flakes. It is in this form that their potent hallucinogenic effects can be tapped. Once the Dream Leaves have reached this point, they are considered a drug by most authorities.
Dream Leaves causes a sentient being to hallucinate, hear things, and feel a constant wave of vertigo and euphoria at the same time. Many describe the sensation as being in a dream, which is where the name is derived from. Those who are under the effects of Dream Leaves feel sluggish (-5 to Reflex Saves and Dexterity checks) and muddled (-5 to Intelligence and Wisdom checks). When used in excess, the drug becomes addictive, although when used sparingly, it does not (DM’s disgression).
The common method used by Wild Elves is to pour the shredded leaves in an open brazier, and lighting a fire underneath. This is done during many of their religious holidays, as well as coming-of-age ceremonies. Soon afterwards, the smoke from the brazier fills up the enclosed space, affecting those who breathe it in. Alternatively, a person can stick their face next to the brazier, and inhale deeply, taking in the smoke from the Dream Leaves. In both cases, the hallucinogenic effects begin in a few minutes (1d6 minutes), depending on how hardy the individual is (DC 10 every Round until failure), and last for an hour or two (2d6 X 10 Minutes).
Sometimes, the chopped up Dream Leaves are put into tea bags, and can be brewed as tea. This is the method preferred by the rich, who are experimenting with the drug, because it is not overt, as other methods. When the brew is imbibed, the hallucinogenic effects begin in a few minutes (1d4), depending on how hardy the individual is (DC 10 every Round until failure), and lasts two to three hours (3d6 X 10 Minutes).
Finally, drug dealers often sell the poor and disenfranchised Dream Leaves rolled in paper. One end of the paper is lit with a flame, and burns. The other end is put to your lips, and inhaled from. The hallucinogenic effects, when “puffed” begin in a few minutes (1d6 minutes), depending on how hardy the individual is (DC 10 every Round until failure), and last for about an hour (1d6 X 10 Minutes).
On the black market, because that is only where Dream Leaves are available from, a single tea bag containing Dream Leaves costs about 25 SP, and a single “puff stick” costs 5 SP, though prices fluctuate with availability and time of year.
-In and of itself, it is a homebrew contribution, but one wouldn't have to stretch the imagination to imagine such plants existing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:34:23
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Healing magic, in my games at least, will repair actual trauma to the body, but in order to reduce intoxication, you need a magical effect designed to purge poisons. That being said, I've had PCs rich and careless enough of their assets to use Potions of Neutralise Poison as Quick-Sober pills. Less powerful versions that were focused on just alcohol or another drug would be more efficient, but if no canon source mentions them, even where they should have been used by powerful and influential people, should they exist in the Realms?
There was such a spell in 2E, in the old Forgotten Realms Adventures. Spendelard's Chaser was specifically intended to be used as a hangover cure, but it would also get rid of other poisons.
Page 55: "This spell was originally created in order to facilitate mental recovery from brewery research expeditions (in other words, as a hangover cure)." |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:17:50
Again, I think temples of the meriad gods in the realms play a large role here. They might have taken the distributions of drugs into their respective daily practises. This way they have become the main trafficers in drugs in most cities, giving them another way to bind them to their subjects... The prices to obtain drugs outside of the temple monopolies could have led them to skyrocket on black markets.
Anyways, many prices for goods in D&D are not meant to be realistic and you should definately introduce lower street prices for drugs if you go for a more gritty urban campaign. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 15:24:13
I found the Serpent Kingdoms smoke chemicals evocative, yes, but wow, they were expensive. Ironically, though, these exotic and sometimes powerful substances were, at least, not as expensive per weight as the LoD drugs.
Still, it's hard to imagine every single yuan-ti being rich enough to relax regularly with something that costs ten times the monthly earnings of a regular family and a hundred times minimum wage.
I'd need to create some versions of the smokes that had mild euphoric effects and cost less.
As for magic, I agree that it would be useful to richer people and those living in close proximity to spellcasters. Easy to tailor to the desired effect and without side-effects. Magical potions of bliss, escape from painful memories, etc. ought to be possible and not all that expensive, perhaps. At least, compared to other magical single-use items that mimic higher level magics.
One would think that alchemical and herbal concoctions would also allow for some tailoring beyond what is possible in our world, seeing as they revolve around using things that are magical in nature.
As for adventurer health and vitality, I've never treated magical healing as improving their constitutions beyond what they'd get from perfect medical care at our tech levels. Yes, someone who is treated by magic will not have any damage to his body from wounds or disease, but top athletes at any tech level will usually be those who escape that fate through luck or wealth anyway.
Healing magic, in my games at least, will repair actual trauma to the body, but in order to reduce intoxication, you need a magical effect designed to purge poisons. That being said, I've had PCs rich and careless enough of their assets to use Potions of Neutralise Poison as Quick-Sober pills. Less powerful versions that were focused on just alcohol or another drug would be more efficient, but if no canon source mentions them, even where they should have been used by powerful and influential people, should they exist in the Realms? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 00:22:20
I found the vapours and smokes used by the Yuan-Ti in Serpent Kingdoms described in an interesting and evocative way. Considering the polytheistic perspective people of the Realms have towards personal behaviour, I expect a laissez-faire atitude towards drug addiction and use. I see it having a rich history and a fairly stabelized market. Many factors might have influenced the rise of fall of drug prizes.
In Fearun I imagine that magic use could be capable of generating the same euphoric feelings of certain drugs. A mere cantrip can replicate a couple of minor sensations for an hour. The price for hiring even a low level spellcaster is rather high, so it would not compete favorably in low magic use areas. In sites with high magic use like temples, it could easily outcompete regular drug use, replacing certain needs searched for in drugs, like forgotfullness, bliss and fearlessness, by providing them (additionally) through spells.
The bless spell causes sensations similar to bliss, and I could see communities of people flocking to local temples to experience it a few times a day. The forgetfull forgiveness found around acolyte within of temples of Shar seems like a perfect place where drugs are used for trade, rituals, meditation on nihilism and mind alteration without any stigma. Yliril (sp.) the Sharran priestess in the Twilight War, was a heavy addict. Remove fear must have a profound effect on a persons mental state. These could have an addictive effect on those dependant on the bliss the spells provide.
Healing magic seems like it could fairly easily purge any negative effects from drug use. I've played with the rule that alcohol intoxication is similar to nonlethal damage: a sinle ale heals one hit point but gives a nonlethal damage. A cure minor wounds orison heals a single of of both lethal and none lethal damage, so a well timed cure light wounds can make a party last somewhat longer. :P
Perhaps Fearunian adventurers do need bigger doses of every drug they consume, as their bodies have been frequently exposed to healing magics. They've become generally thougher (better fortitudes) with level aswell. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 22:45:15
To relate this stuff directly to an ongoing game, let's take examples from my campaign.
While in Lyrabar, the Saerloon-born merchant Murlak Solstice found that with the number of important people he absolutely had to see himself, not to mention a few night-time escapades, he didn't have time to sleep. When the gnomish alchemist in his party noticed his ragged and sleepless face, he presented him with a snuffbox with some dust, instructing him to take a pinch now and then, when he felt tired.
Since they are both rich part-owners of a merchant house, the price wasn't important and the origin of the powder didn't matter much. On the other hand, if Murlak should want more, I might have to decide.
Is it worked from coca leaves? If so, where on Toril do they grow?
Is it artifically created powder, an alchemical compound of inert substances, a fantasy equivalent of amphetamine?
Is it something else? If so, a stronger stimulant than anything in the real world? With fewer side-effects or with a greater euphoric effects? Can it cause strange dreams, is it addictive, does it suppress the appetite, affect the sex drive, etc.? Where do the incredients come from? How expensive are they?
The Cormyrean-cum-Westgatean noblewoman Raenthala "Tala" Cormaeril, making a living as an adventurer due to her distaste for her family and Westgate society, would over the winter of 1372 DR frequent an establishment in a cellar of Ravens Bluff where she smoked something which made her euphoric and lethargic. She'd spend days in a haze of drug-induced semi-sleep and her life started to revolve around this drug.
In the real world, opium, but does that exist in the Realms? Where does it grow? Who sells it? Etc.
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| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:52:35
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I refer back to my original note in that there may not be a much research into this kind of thing due to the lack of research into the medical field as much as has been done in our world. After all, I can't see Faerun getting into any kinds injected drugs requiring a needle.
Syringes are not all that likely, no, but injection is just one method of using substances that are usually still effective when consumed by other means. People can inject substances derived from poppies or coca leaves, but they can also consume them in the form of powders, smoke them, chew them, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The average person also won't have easy access to a lighter.
Doesn't matter much, since fire is fire. There will be a fire burning in most camps and all inns, not to mention private homes.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The average person probably won't want to cook with such things in the same pan that their kids eat from.
Well, they make soap, brew beer and store meat for the winter somehow. All of which are far filthier processes than anything you are likely to have to perform with a plant before you can use it as an intoxicant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, I'd see the types of these "drugs" being more like what we see listed as cheap forms of inebriation for the masses already (i.e. alcohol, tobacco, maybe someone learns about certain mushrooms, maybe something that people might use in a sweat lodge or in candles).
The real world has, in addition to mushrooms, plenty of herbs, leaves or other plants with hallucinogenic, stimulating, relaxing, ephoric or other mind-altering properties.
The information in Lords of Darkness, however, did not mention a single substance which seemed likely to be used by any normal person in the world, because they were all more precious than gold and some more precious than diamonds. That's not something people often consume for fun or relaxation, unless they are god-kings or other monstrously rich folk.
Are there equivalents to cannabis, coca leaves, khat, ergine, opium poppies and the numerous other Earth plants that have been used as intoxicants? Where do they grow? How are they used in different cultures?
The information in LoD didn't actually help with any of that. It just had a list of preposterously expensive stuff that it is extremely unlikely would be widely used. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:28:57
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think part of the pricing would also be due to distribution and production methods. In a fantasy setting, widescale distribution of illicit substances isn't as easy as it is in the real world, and production of those substances could also be more difficult.
But why should these substances be illegal in a fantasy setting?
In our world, which substances are designated 'illicit drugs' and which are viewed as perfectly legitimate products appears to be mostly driven by historical accidents. Certainly there is no medical reasoning behind it, as can easily be discerned by a comparison of the empirical evidence about the risks and harm of some 'illicit drugs' to those of such legal substances as alcohol, nicotine or paracetamol.
More importantly than that, regardless of the views people in a fantasy world would hold about alcohol, tobacco or other recreational substances, very few pre-modern governments even had the option of such legislation. Something modern people have always had a lot of trouble grasping is the fact that the all-encompassing might of government is an oddity among political systems, existing in the form we know for less than two centuries.
There weren't a lot of laws for the very simple reason that there wasn't a lot of government. The number of clerks, bureaucrats, policemen, etc. was infinitely lower in most societies than it is today. About the only exceptions were city-states in the ancient world where all business was conducted in the name of temples or the king, with effectively almost everyone holding something we would call a 'government' job.
The vast majority of polities on Toril would not be able to enforce legislation about health and safety codes, sexual behaviour, recreational consumption or many other things that modern people sometimes take for granted is a governmental function. And, realistically, because these polities are so obviously not able to enforce such legislation, there will be few indeed who even think about such issues being something that rulers concern themselves with.
The idea of the local lord or the town council deciding what people are allowed to eat, drink or smoke would seem about as realistic to typical people living in such conditions as the idea that homeowners ought to set standards of courtship rituals among any and all animals living on their property. Even if someone thought it was a good idea, they'd immediately see it couldn't possibly be enforced.
Aside from this, why should transportation of recreational substances other than alcohol be so much more difficult? Canonically, nations around the Inner Sea transport grain from places of plenty to those lacking it. Ales are traded between distant countries, something that in our world would only become cost-effective in the late 20th century. A lot of inns and taverns, even ones in small villages, stock liqueurs, wine or spirits from hundreds and thousands of miles away, which, again, is not something you'd often see in real medieval or even Renaissance societies.
The Realms are a lot more cosmopolitan than any part of the real world until the 20th century. Trade is obviously booming, with all sorts of things being worth shipping long distances. What could possibly make it less worthwhile to ship some of the other types of recreational chemicals than alcohol or nicotine?
As for production, a lot of recreational chemicals effectively grow naturally and may be farmed with no more effort than farming any other kind of specialist crop. Many types can even be grown in herb gardens, by almost any farmer as a sideline.
I refer back to my original note in that there may not be a much research into this kind of thing due to the lack of research into the medical field as much as has been done in our world. After all, I can't see Faerun getting into any kinds injected drugs requiring a needle. The average person also won't have easy access to a lighter. The average person probably won't want to cook with such things in the same pan that their kids eat from. So, I'd see the types of these "drugs" being more like what we see listed as cheap forms of inebriation for the masses already (i.e. alcohol, tobacco, maybe someone learns about certain mushrooms, maybe something that people might use in a sweat lodge or in candles). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 11:36:07
'Drug addiction' is also touched in The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy. One of the main characters 'travels the crimson road,' as people put it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 18:09:12
Simply being illegal has never stopped traffic of drugs or other contraband on our world, it just shifts it to unofficial channels. The commodity is always in demand, thus there's always potential profit. The only real question is who makes this profit - the state, crown, corporation, cartel, police, mafia, church? Taxes must be paid, it's only a matter of who's acting as the taxman. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 17:50:12
-A very good point about the legality of drugs. In a setting where Charm , Hypnotize and other spells addle and otherwise alter the minds of others (often unwillingly), so what if a mundane substance, natural or manufactured does the same thing? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 17:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think the drug prices listed in the books are, indeed, the "adventurer's price"--i.e., if you as a PC want to acquire one of these substances, you're probably going to be charged this amount. Regular people might be charged substantially less, or have to make up their debt in other ways (services to the pusher, be they resource, violence, or romantic in nature).
I find the practise of listing 'adventurer' prices infuriating. What tell-tale signs are people using that allows them to unerringly spot the difference between 'adventurer' and 'regular folk', especially if they are going to class travelling merchants, minor street criminals or initerant workers as 'regular folk'?
In my experience, the difference between merchants and adventurers is often just that with some people it's better to introduce oneself as a merchant whereas with others, you might emphasise your deeds of derring-do. Any successful adventurer will mostly act and certainly learn to bargain in a manner more or less identical to that of travelling merchants. At worst, the less imaginative of them might have to act and bargain like seasoned mercenaries.
What none of them can afford to do for long is be so naive and ignorant that they'll consent to paying inflated prices for the same goods. It is true that this is stereotypical behaviour for farm boys and lasses out in the wide world for the first time, claiming to be 'an adventurer' and imagining endless riches and fame just around the corner. It is, however, equally true that most of those who start out that dumb will end up dead in short order.
Consider the real world. Those people you'd describe as 'adventurers'; the Burtons, Casanovas, Saint-Germains or any number of less well known figures were not usually saps who paid inflated prices for inferior goods. In fact, not only did they have the requisite contacts and savvy to know full well where to go for value for their money in a wide range of foreign locales, they were much more likely to be the ones taking advantage of other's gullibility than vice versa.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There is a certain purity scale to consider, too. If a drug has been "cut" with various alternative herbs and chemicals, then it might be substantially cheaper--and much, much more dangerous to the user. I think it's assumed PCs will be trying to buy "the good stuff," and it's left to DMs to reduce the price if they're looking for tainted goods.
Granted, many more potent drugs are sold cut.
On the other hand, all that does is allow the seller to present the same amount of product as seemingly more. If one 'dose' has a given effect, then cutting it by half means that you'll simply need twice as much to get the same effect. Essentially, unless the uncut version is stronger than you need for a desired recreational effect, cutting it just gets you a diluted concoction too weak to match what the buyer is looking for. Assuming any competition at all, the seller can't do that.
The listed effects, then, are for a dose of the drug, according to Lords of Darkness. The potency of the active incredient will determine whether a dose is typically pure or cut with something else.
One of the primary problems I have with the prices as listed is that it seems that someone didn't realise how incredibly little is required to constitute a dose of most drugs. A 'dose', defined as enough to cause a given effect, would be a single joint, one line, one syringe, etc. in real world terms. That's not even half a gram, usually.
One consequence of the listed prices is that all the drugs in LoD are at least an order of magnitude more expensive than gold by weight. In fact, the cheapest is 40x the price of gold by weight, more or less. Well, either that, or these are so much weaker than all kinds of naturally occuring plants in our world that a dose is actually a huge amount. Yet, even if you were to rule that a dose of tekkil powder is somehow an ounce, it would still be more expensive than gold by weight.
Does that make sense to anyone? I mean, I can imagine fads for such hyper-expensive things springing up among the decadent rich for a few months, but why bother putting those into the book, then? Where are all the common drugs? If a street thug uses drugs, what drugs does he use? Because I know he's not using something that is much more expensive than gold. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 17:20:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think part of the pricing would also be due to distribution and production methods. In a fantasy setting, widescale distribution of illicit substances isn't as easy as it is in the real world, and production of those substances could also be more difficult.
But why should these substances be illegal in a fantasy setting?
In our world, which substances are designated 'illicit drugs' and which are viewed as perfectly legitimate products appears to be mostly driven by historical accidents. Certainly there is no medical reasoning behind it, as can easily be discerned by a comparison of the empirical evidence about the risks and harm of some 'illicit drugs' to those of such legal substances as alcohol, nicotine or paracetamol.
More importantly than that, regardless of the views people in a fantasy world would hold about alcohol, tobacco or other recreational substances, very few pre-modern governments even had the option of such legislation. Something modern people have always had a lot of trouble grasping is the fact that the all-encompassing might of government is an oddity among political systems, existing in the form we know for less than two centuries.
There weren't a lot of laws for the very simple reason that there wasn't a lot of government. The number of clerks, bureaucrats, policemen, etc. was infinitely lower in most societies than it is today. About the only exceptions were city-states in the ancient world where all business was conducted in the name of temples or the king, with effectively almost everyone holding something we would call a 'government' job.
The vast majority of polities on Toril would not be able to enforce legislation about health and safety codes, sexual behaviour, recreational consumption or many other things that modern people sometimes take for granted is a governmental function. And, realistically, because these polities are so obviously not able to enforce such legislation, there will be few indeed who even think about such issues being something that rulers concern themselves with.
The idea of the local lord or the town council deciding what people are allowed to eat, drink or smoke would seem about as realistic to typical people living in such conditions as the idea that homeowners ought to set standards of courtship rituals among any and all animals living on their property. Even if someone thought it was a good idea, they'd immediately see it couldn't possibly be enforced.
Aside from this, why should transportation of recreational substances other than alcohol be so much more difficult? Canonically, nations around the Inner Sea transport grain from places of plenty to those lacking it. Ales are traded between distant countries, something that in our world would only become cost-effective in the late 20th century. A lot of inns and taverns, even ones in small villages, stock liqueurs, wine or spirits from hundreds and thousands of miles away, which, again, is not something you'd often see in real medieval or even Renaissance societies.
The Realms are a lot more cosmopolitan than any part of the real world until the 20th century. Trade is obviously booming, with all sorts of things being worth shipping long distances. What could possibly make it less worthwhile to ship some of the other types of recreational chemicals than alcohol or nicotine?
As for production, a lot of recreational chemicals effectively grow naturally and may be farmed with no more effort than farming any other kind of specialist crop. Many types can even be grown in herb gardens, by almost any farmer as a sideline. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 16:57:09
I think part of the pricing would also be due to distribution and production methods. In a fantasy setting, widescale distribution of illicit substances isn't as easy as it is in the real world, and production of those substances could also be more difficult. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 15:11:50
(A caveat: my points here are as someone with little drug experience--never used them, never cared to, don't know anyone who uses them much. Mostly we're looking at what I've absorbed from books, movies, and my enjoyment of shows like Weeds and Breaking Bad.)
I think the drug prices listed in the books are, indeed, the "adventurer's price"--i.e., if you as a PC want to acquire one of these substances, you're probably going to be charged this amount. Regular people might be charged substantially less, or have to make up their debt in other ways (services to the pusher, be they resource, violence, or romantic in nature).
There is a certain purity scale to consider, too. If a drug has been "cut" with various alternative herbs and chemicals, then it might be substantially cheaper--and much, much more dangerous to the user. I think it's assumed PCs will be trying to buy "the good stuff," and it's left to DMs to reduce the price if they're looking for tainted goods.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sleyvas touched upon TSR/Wizbro's generally conservative publishing policies. After a history of much controversy over the inclusion of devil worshipping, "lurid artwork", and all the rest ... I'm sure Wizbro is careful to ensure they publish only the most inoffensive milktoast "family entertainment" stuff.
Heh heh. [thinks about some of the scenes he's written]
But there's a good point here:
quote:
The last thing they'd want is some sort of lobby activism attacking D&D for being a "guide about how to run criminal organizations".
A company has to maintain its IP, and intentionally pulling pins on hand grenades like drugs or sexual violence or other extremely unsavory topics is not a particularly wise choice to make. As a novel writer, I have been actively discouraged from including drugs in my work: up until about ten years ago, drugs were strictly taboo, but it's opened up to allowing their use, so long as they aren't glorified or presented in a positive light (which I think is fair--even the most morally reprehensible movies don't go that far).
As far as Wizards' policy (and I don't think Hasbro is really that involved here), it seems to me they've notably relaxed the content code from the TSR days. In the 80s/90s, we wouldn't see things like drugs, or non-normative sexuality, or anything but a strictly conservative moral code in our Realms fare. Since, I've seen the vision broaden even in my work with them (which dates from 2003-2004).
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 14:44:24
Sleyvas touched upon TSR/Wizbro's generally conservative publishing policies. After a history of much controversy over the inclusion of devil worshipping, "lurid artwork", and all the rest ... I'm sure Wizbro is careful to ensure they publish only the most inoffensive milktoast "family entertainment" stuff. The last thing they'd want is some sort of lobby activism attacking D&D for being a "guide about how to run criminal organizations". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 12:48:14
This comes down to the mechanics of why the game designers introduced the drugs system into the campaign. I believe its intended as a money sink as well as a roleplaying prop. Personally, I have issues with drugs (what they've done to family and friends) and am therefore less inclined to want to include them in my games. However, you make some very valid points that I'd never thought about BECAUSE I never looked at them as something to include in the game. What I'd say is that the introduction of divine healing has a factor in why drugs are not as prolific. Because most villages have a healer who can literally heal most major wounds, the need to develop extremely powerful pain killers has been less widespread. That being said, the fermentation of alcohols has obviously been discovered, and I'd personally say that "perhaps" in the realms alcohols might tend to replace most narcotics as the means for a commoner to "lose himself" for a bit. There might also be certain plants that have been found to have some kind of "mood enhancing" properties (tobacco is certainly around, and perhaps they've discovered other things to burn). So, it might be easy to see things that in OUR society as somewhat acceptable (drinking and smoking) as being considered nasty vices in the more puritanical portions of the realms. |
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