| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| varyar |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 01:35:45
Hey all.
I was wondering - aside from Powers and Pantheons and the 3E godbook, which Realms sourcebooks (or novels, for that matter) have information of interest about Savras? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 02:31:35
-Warian and Zel Datharathi were their names. The crystal, I don't recall what it was called- I don't think they actually had a proper name, and were simply called 'Datharathi Crystal'. Because it is (connected) to Pandorym, I call it 'Pandorym Crystal'. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 01:49:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I was just making a point that canonically there have been 'flying ships' seen in the UE, which is how I connect all this (there are also several in the Golden lands, thanks to BC's Darkvision novel).
Do you have a listing of the flying ship references in Darkvision, Markus? They would definitely come in handy with something I'm tinkering with at the moment [since I forgot those tidbits existed].
As just about everyone knows by now, I no longer have any sources, so no, no listing. Almost everything I post is from memory these days (and what I can glean from Wiki's).
IIRC, there were three ships which the main Durpari family (I forget their name) - the ones that controlled the bio-crystal trade (forget the name of that as well) - were sold by Halruaa, to facilitate getting to-and-from their mines, which were located on the far side of The Golden Waters (the Imaskari side). Durpar is strangely situated, and it is in two pieces separated by 'impassable' terrain (mountains and a sea), so it makes a lot of sense that they would need these, and I would guess there are more located throughout the south. The Halruaans gave (permanent 'loan') some to Lizardfolk as well, and there was an an 'old design' sold to Volo and his group in the Once Around the Realms novel (it was a re-built model from a junkyard just for skyships).
So two ways these get out - unofficially some older models get refurbished and sold to outsiders (since the Govt canonically keeps track of all the operational ones), and anyone the Halruaan gov't owes a favor to, or would like to have indebted to them, get 'loaners'. What that does is insure cooperation, because the folks that get them don't want to lose the gift (once they get used to having them, and lording it over everyone who doesn't). Its actually rather brilliant, on the Haltruaans part.
Homebrew:
I would also hazard to guess - especially considering Savras' heavy presence in Halruaa - that there is some sort of divination magic attached to every ship - a 'tracking device', if you will. I would go so far as to say they can also disable or blow them up from afar, as part of that same protection (Halruaans are anything but stupid).
So it stands to reason they could probably even locate those 'illegal' models that got out, unless the trackers were taken out as part of the refurbishing (but once again, knowing how smart the Halruaans are, I would say even this is part of their plan - they probably have a way of monitoring everything that occurs on their ships, so these 'missing' ships would make discreet 'spying devices', like modern military flying-drones). It is likely they can usurp control from whoever has them, whenever they want.
Just my take on them, is all. I recall we discussed this awhile back, Sage (on the WotC site), and we had concluded that the atmospheric ships were probably based on the Netherese attempts to create spelljammers.
Interestingly enough, the Mythalars seem to be able to hold an atmosphere, very similar to how the Helms work - perhaps they are also an outgrowth of that technological dead-end (for them)? You have to wonder why they didn't just fly their enclaves into space. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 01:26:19
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Netherese eventually gave up the process of developing flying/spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine the Halruaans probably incorporated so many of their own original ideas on those earlier models, that they literally became entirely new Halruaan-based models, each bearing very little resemblance to the original Netherese designs.
Er, very little indeed. For one, spelljamming ships aren't well fit for air support.
That doesn't explain why some groundling nations use spelljammers in their "aerial" navies -- like Ruathimaer [Starwings] being used in the defence of Evermeet, as Elves of Evermeet notes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 19:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Giant Bladdered Ships are Halruaan own development.
Actually, I don't recall there being any mention of bladders for Halruaan skyships. That's another example of art not matching description. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 15:52:15
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like City of Raven's Bluff and Bloodwalk are most of interest here?
The bit in City of Raven's Bluff is more about his history (this had little to do with what he is now) and one relic. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical about Scepter of Savras, i.e. his imprisonment.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Netherese eventually gave up the process of developing flying/spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine the Halruaans probably incorporated so many of their own original ideas on those earlier models, that they literally became entirely new Halruaan-based models, each bearing very little resemblance to the original Netherese designs.
Er, very little indeed. For one, spelljamming ships aren't well fit for air support. One lucky hit -> feedback shock at a rather low height -> TPK... Monarch Mordent was a canonical illustration of this.
Netherese also had skimmers, but even though powered by air elementals, those weren't exactly flying vehicles, just speedboats fitting for a swamp.
Giant Bladdered Ships are Halruaan own development. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:12:38
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Actually, I think some sort of flying ship would end up coming out of any highly-magical and long-lasting magical human empire. Partly because we humans all want to be able to fly at some point in our lives, but there's also a rather large "hey non-wizards! And fellow wizards! Look what I can do!" aspect to it as well.
Well, we know the Halruaans reluctantly shared their flying ships with nearby nearby neighbours -- though likely only with Halruaan oversight, and largely because it would help to aid in the defence of their realm.
What's not to say that some nefariously-minded wizard or artificer, jealous of the Halruaan designs, divined the secrets behind their construction during this process of external lending, and has since sold that information for a handsome profit? 
quote:
So I imagine that places like Imaskar, Jhaamdath (which was magical, darn it, not psionic, and I don't care what 3e says!), some of the genie successor states, and maybe Nar and/or Raumathar would have had the occasional flying ship or its equivalent, if only because they would have provided the support for a lone inventor to whip one up in the Realmsian equivalent of his or her garage. It's just with Netheril that flying ships and flying cities really took off and it became widely known for.
I like the idea of Imaskari adapting their love of portals for flying ship designs. Or, perhaps, crafting elaborate flying hulls that could be used to ferry hundreds through their portal networks.
The Jhaamdath equivalent of flying ships could the basis for mindjammers in the Realms -- flying ships with specialised helms which are powered by psionic energy.
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:43:58
Actually, I think some sort of flying ship would end up coming out of any highly-magical and long-lasting magical human empire. Partly because we humans all want to be able to fly at some point in our lives, but there's also a rather large "hey non-wizards! And fellow wizards! Look what I can do!" aspect to it as well.
So I imagine that places like Imaskar, Jhaamdath (which was magical, darn it, not psionic, and I don't care what 3e says!), some of the genie successor states, and maybe Nar and/or Raumathar would have had the occasional flying ship or its equivalent, if only because they would have provided the support for a lone inventor to whip one up in the Realmsian equivalent of his or her garage. It's just with Netheril that flying ships and flying cities really took off and it became widely known for. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:30:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I was just making a point that canonically there have been 'flying ships' seen in the UE, which is how I connect all this (there are also several in the Golden lands, thanks to BC's Darkvision novel).
Do you have a listing of the flying ship references in Darkvision, Markus? They would definitely come in handy with something I'm tinkering with at the moment [since I forgot those tidbits existed].
quote:
I just think Savras has a very 'Mystic' (Vedic-like) vibe to him, ...
I recall his image from Powers & Pantheons suggesting a very similar notion in my mind as well.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:22:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are likely many other forms of flying ship utterly unlike Halruaan skyships; I can see using, as one-offs, some of the magically-driven ships from the Eber-whatsit setting.
Granted, it's prominent use on Eberron is largely due to the presence of the dragonshards, which are crucial components for the elemental binding process.
But I could see elemental-binding for powering flying ships likely becoming a curious innovation for the Realms. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 00:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Well, the Netherese did it originally, at least the models that the Halruaans now use. Who knows who else might have done so as well.
It's worth noting as well, that the early Halruaan models were actually adapted from older Netherese designs used during the Diaspora to reach that distant land.
The Netherese eventually gave up the process of developing flying/spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine the Halruaans probably incorporated so many of their own original ideas on those earlier models, that they literally became entirely new Halruaan-based models, each bearing very little resemblance to the original Netherese designs. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 23:20:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-All that is is levitation? What a gyp.
Yup, but it's a lot of levitation spells, not one big one. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 22:48:12
-All that is is levitation? What a gyp. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 21:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I would assume that, in principle, the premise behind Spelljammer ships and skyships limited to the planet's atmosphere are similar, if not related. Is there a genesis point, that we know of, regarding flying ships that are not Spelljammers? When they first were 'rolled out', who manufactured them...?
In canon, a spelljamming helm is manufactured only by a race called the Arcane, and it siphons off memorized spells to provide motive power. A spelljammer with an unmanned helm is going nowhere, except possibly straight down very quickly. Halruaan skyships are held aloft by a bunch of plates with levitation cast on them. A Halruaan skyship is less maneuverable and slower, but won't fall out of the sky if the helm is unmanned. And a skyship can become a spelljammer just by bolting on a helm.
The only real similarity is that spelljammers and skyships aren't bound to water.
Note: using a Halruaan skyship in this discussion, because while we know other flying ships exist in the Realms, the skyships are the only ones that we have any real info on. There are likely many other forms of flying ship utterly unlike Halruaan skyships; I can see using, as one-offs, some of the magically-driven ships from the Eber-whatsit setting.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:58:30
Well, I was just making a point that canonically there have been 'flying ships' seen in the UE, which is how I connect all this (there are also several in the Golden lands, thanks to BC's Darkvision novel).
I just think Savras has a very 'Mystic' (Vedic-like) vibe to him, but we know he was from Halruaa, so this is how I was able to glue my version to the canon one. 
Plus I needed an explanation for the whole weird 'third eye' thing down there (its from the DD series, so quasi-canon, but I wanted to use as much as I could). Bizarrely, the people who are known for it are the folks from Konigheim - the nation with the strongest ties to the Northmen. The Double-Diamond books really took weird to another level in that region.
Anyway, Savras has no canon (or even quasi-canon) connections to the UE - its all HB, so make of it what you will. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:35:36
-I would assume that, in principle, the premise behind Spelljammer ships and skyships limited to the planet's atmosphere are similar, if not related. Is there a genesis point, that we know of, regarding flying ships that are not Spelljammers? When they first were 'rolled out', who manufactured them...? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 19:27:11
Well, the Netherese did it originally, at least the models that the Halruaans now use. Who knows who else might have done so as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 05:09:57
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pure Homebrew:
The premise behind it was that Savras was the son of a Halruaan ship-mage, who did extensive trading in the Utter East (the ONLY mention of a flying ship in the OGB is from the Utter East). His mother was a native Mar Woman, so he was raised up to a certain age in the UE, until his father realized he had quite a bit of natural magical talent, and brought him back to Halruaa for training.
His father, BTW, had two families - one in each country, and traveled quite a bit between them. The Mar woman was aware of his other life, but the Halruaan wife knew nothing of his secret (it was a loveless, arranged political marriage, although he had children with her as well). He tried to hide the fact that his new protégé was his own son, but eventually the secret got out, which ruined his family's name (this is all fodder for DMs to play with - a skeleton in Savras' closet).
I'm pretty sure Ed has said that Halruaans weren't the only folk to build flying ships... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:36:08
Pure Homebrew:
The premise behind it was that Savras was the son of a Halruaan ship-mage, who did extensive trading in the Utter East (the ONLY mention of a flying ship in the OGB is from the Utter East). His mother was a native Mar Woman, so he was raised up to a certain age in the UE, until his father realized he had quite a bit of natural magical talent, and brought him back to Halruaa for training.
His father, BTW, had two families - one in each country, and traveled quite a bit between them. The Mar woman was aware of his other life, but the Halruaan wife knew nothing of his secret (it was a loveless, arranged political marriage, although he had children with her as well). He tried to hide the fact that his new protégé was his own son, but eventually the secret got out, which ruined his family's name (this is all fodder for DMs to play with - a skeleton in Savras' closet). |
| varyar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:15:40
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I never actually fully wrote-up the PrC, sorry. It's a five-level PrC with standard magician BAB and save score progressions, and the following abilities:
Divination Focus- Add total Acolyte of the Third Eye levels as a bonus to all Divination related spells (DC to succeed, DC to resist, etc.)
Detect Magic- 2nd Level; Unlimited use
Detect Thoughts- 3nd Level; Unlimited use
Prying Eyes- 4th Level; Unlimited use
True Seeing- 5th Level; Unlimited use
Scry- 5th Level; 1/Day
Cool, many thanks. Gives me some ideas for Sibylite Zaama. |
| varyar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We did some Homebrew stuff with him in the Utter East (saying he was a Mar who went to Halruaa for training), but thats totally non-canonical.
Pardon my ignorance - who are the Mars?
The Five Kingdoms' natives are the Mar, a pseudo-Asian Indian-like people [which makes sense because the pseudo-Indians in Kara Tur are on the other side of the mountains]. You'll find what little exists on them in sources like Faces of Deception and the Double Diamond saga.
Ah, many thanks! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:13:11
-I never actually fully wrote-up the PrC, sorry. It's a five-level PrC with standard magician BAB and save score progressions, and the following abilities:
Divination Focus- Add total Acolyte of the Third Eye levels as a bonus to all Divination related spells (DC to succeed, DC to resist, etc.)
Detect Magic- 2nd Level; Unlimited use
Detect Thoughts- 3nd Level; Unlimited use
Prying Eyes- 4th Level; Unlimited use
True Seeing- 5th Level; Unlimited use
Scry- 5th Level; 1/Day |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 00:53:53
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We did some Homebrew stuff with him in the Utter East (saying he was a Mar who went to Halruaa for training), but thats totally non-canonical.
Pardon my ignorance - who are the Mars?
The Five Kingdoms' natives are the Mar, a pseudo-Asian Indian-like people [which makes sense because the pseudo-Indians in Kara Tur are on the other side of the mountains]. You'll find what little exists on them in sources like Faces of Deception and the Double Diamond saga.
|
| varyar |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 20:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I have to look for it when I get home, but sure.
Cool, thanks in advance. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:49:10
-I have to look for it when I get home, but sure. |
| varyar |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:42:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We did some Homebrew stuff with him in the Utter East (saying he was a Mar who went to Halruaa for training), but thats totally non-canonical.
Pardon my ignorance - who are the Mars?
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayIt was the whole 'third eye' thing - the Utter East has people down there like that, and we were trying to connect everything to other Realmslore.
Can't remember all the details, but Mystics that worshiped Savras tattooed an eye on their foreheads, and at a certain point (epic tier?), they would perform a ritual that would make the eye functional (at will - most of the time it would still appear as a tat). The eye granted True sight, and other abilities would be grained at higher levels (It was actually setup to be a PrC, but I don't think we ever got around to it).
Once again, all homebrew. Thought maybe you could use some of that.
Definitely! Thanks much for the notes.
(I'm working on a story where three of the main characters are an invoker, a priestess of Savras and a paladin of Azuth, and the All-Seeing Eye is fairly obscure, so any information or speculation about him helps a lot.)
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus-Acolyte of the Third Eye, of which I have the PrC information.
Can you post it here? I'd love to see what you came up with. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't remember all the details, but Mystics that worshiped Savras tattooed an eye on their foreheads, and at a certain point (epic tier?), they would perform a ritual that would make the eye functional (at will - most of the time it would still appear as a tat). The eye granted True sight, and other abilities would be grained at higher levels (It was actually setup to be a PrC, but I don't think we ever got around to it).
-Acolyte of the Third Eye, of which I have the PrC information. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:47:31
We did some Homebrew stuff with him in the Utter East (saying he was a Mar who went to Halruaa for training), but thats totally non-canonical.
It was the whole 'third eye' thing - the Utter East has people down there like that, and we were trying to connect everything to other Realmslore.
Can't remember all the details, but Mystics that worshiped Savras tattooed an eye on their foreheads, and at a certain point (epic tier?), they would perform a ritual that would make the eye functional (at will - most of the time it would still appear as a tat). The eye granted True sight, and other abilities would be grained at higher levels (It was actually setup to be a PrC, but I don't think we ever got around to it).
Once again, all homebrew. Thought maybe you could use some of that. |
| varyar |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 13:00:58
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like City of Raven's Bluff and Bloodwalk are most of interest here? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 06:59:19
There are mentions. Many don't go past "...oh, and Savras, too", but Volo's Guide tells about the Scepter of Savras, and City of Ravens Bluff a few bits on pre-capture Savras.
Cult of the Dragon just shows his faithful make very thorough spies. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 06:01:39
Hoondatha has the right of it -- Bloodwalk.
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