| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 14:38:14
When the Imaskari artificers of Lower Imaskar opened Bukhara Spires to another world to replace their decimated peasant population, the world they reached was evidently Earth or a very close mirror of it on another crystal sphere. Crucially, the inhabitants had no access to the Art, suggesting that the history of this world would probably resemble that of Earth closely*.
In seeking inspiration for names, minor or lost gods, cultural heroes, political or religious movements outside the norms of mainstream culture and so forth among the Mulan, I wished to narrow down the time period during which the Imaskar carried out their campaign of large-scale kidnapping on this Earth or Earth-like crystal sphere.
At first I thought of simply subtracting 630 years from the Dale Reckoning date given in GHotR, given that time passes at a similar rate for Elminster and Ed Greenwood and that in 1987 for Ed Greenwood, it was DR 1357. Being aware that many things might have interfered with the relative temporal rate in the intervening period, I considered it unlikely in the extreme that I should be so lucky as to find an exact correspondance, and this pessimism turned out to be correct.
Around 3,700 BCE most of the gods mentioned as being the gods of the two groups of Mulan are either nonexistent or merely number among the throng of similar gods worshipped around the eastern Meditarranean. There is, as yet, not really anything resembling Sumer and Akkad in Mesopotamia, let alone specifically Babylon.
There is some evidence that the two Bukhara Gates opened at different time periods on the Earth-analogue crystal sphere. On the other hand, another explanation, and perhaps more plausible, as well as fitting all the available evidence, is simply that during the 400 years that the Imaskari had the gates, they made several excursions and that since the end and the beginning of a 400 year period are very different, one might say that they took people from 'two different eras'.
In any case, I will examine whether there is a need to assume that some temporal manipulation was involved seperately. At first, I'll try to find out if the people of Unther and Mulhorand seem likely to have descended from any people who coexisted within a 400 year period.
Let's begin with the Mulhorandi, who come from a culture like Egypt. At what point in time was the pantheon of the area later known as Egypt on our Earth the most like the Mulhorandi pantheon as it appears to have originally existed?
Well, it was not -3,700 BCE, at least. By no stretch of the imagination could Ra be called a ruler of a pantheon or the father of the gods of the Mulhorandi until at least by -3,100 BCE and it would be more accurate to say that it happens late in the Old Kingdom era.
The retention of Ptath as an older founder of the pantheon, the relative importance of Osiris, the lack of Atum** as well as the incorporation of Hathor and Thoth into the pantheon places the most likely period sometime during the merging of the Ennead and Ogdoad cosmogonies, during the 22nd century BCE.
The evil nature of Set, instead of being one of the primary gods of rulership and heroism, and the importance of Isis, would both suggest a much later date. On the other hand, a careful reading of the history of the Mulan does not suggest that Isis was necessarily anything but a minor goddess at the time of Imaskar and it would actually make more sense if Set was highly regarded by his fellow gods, if possibly vain and ambitious, before the events of the Orcgate Wars and the succession crisis after Re.
The lack of Amun*** and the relative lack of foreign influences into the mythology suggests strongly that a later date than the New Kingdom is unlikely. While it is not impossible that this mythology post-dates the Hyksos and the Sea Peoples, the strong preference that Re and later Horus-Re was to show for technological and sociological elements that more properly belong to the era before those changes makes it unlikely. The heroic nature of warfare**** and the long time until Mulhorand developed a naval tradition both suggest a more isolated time.
Do any scribes have canon FR information that appears to contradict this? Or different thoughts?
Next post, Unther.
*More likely, Ra having come to represent an amalgamation of himself and Atum to most of the ancestors of today's Mulhorandi, with Ptah having taken on some aspects.
**Especially given how the linguistics and mythology of the kidnapped people corresponds fairly accurately with that of Bronze Age Earth, west and east of the Fertile Crescent.
***Again, more likely his close identification with Ra and later Horus-Re.
****As opposed to the increasing marginalisation of heroic warriors at the hands of a mass of more-or-less professional military dominated by the bow. In addition, Egyptians after this era had been forcibly introduced to the capabilities of the recurve composite bow, meaning that it was no longer just an interesting foreign curiosity. Since the Mulhorandi of post-Imaskar would have had access to at least some of the infrastructure of the ruined cities, as well as plenty of wood in the Shalhood, we'd expect to see them developing good composite bows in numbers sufficient to arm a whole army early in their history. Instead, early Mulan warfare appears to have revolved around chariots, which means that composite bows were, if present, reserved for the warriors elite. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:20:57
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In the end, I don't necessarily recall anything in canon lore saying these other worlds had no magic... but something makes me think there may have been maybe in one of the deity books?? My personal preference is that the other worlds did indeed have magic though. In fact, to my mind it would be interesting if they had some kind of elemental arcane magic ala wu-jen... and that this magic eventually spread to Zakhara and Kara-Tur. Perhaps the Imaskari enslaved these mages to help build their empire.
If the inhabitants of the other world had magic and were thus powerful enough to resist the Imaskari, what would be the point of getting the slaves from there?
It wouldn't be any easier than simply trying to enslave a society they found in Faerun. In essence, they'd have built two massive and expensive gates just so they'd be able to do the same thing they could do at home.
From Grand History of the Realms, p. 18:
"These twin portals gave access to another world whose inhabitants had no command of the Art." [emphasis mine]
The only way that it makes sense that the Imaskari would not be afraid of resistance from this world is that the people there were unable to use magic at all. And that is indeed what the text says. The Imaskari knew all kinds of magic and they called it all Art. Batrachi, sarruk, their own, the wu-jen in the east, netherese to the north-west, elves, all were using 'the Art'. These humans from another world couldn't.
Some Prime Material worlds are more magical than others. It makes perfect sense that the Imaskari would have picked one with a zero or near zero residual magic levels, meaning that only the most powerful mages could work magic there at all. In that case, their own Artificers could, with preparation, work what would have seemed to the inhabitants 'miracles', but no one there had the slightest chance of being able to oppose them magically.
If they hadn't, it wouldn't have been economically viable to try to rebuild their population with slave taking. Attacking someone of comparable strength isn't a good way to steal things of value. You pick someone who can't defend themselves.
I can see that point (easier to take weaker slaves), and truly my main focus was on where the lore came from and how it was phrased just to see what spin can be placed on things. Based on the phrasing (since some will say that "the art" is wizardry, some will say its "arcane magic only", and some will say "its all magic"), there is a chance that there were priests capable of magic use. I'd prefer this notion, and maybe this is why the godswall was thrown up (i.e. they could catch them, bring them here, and the people were effectively cut off from their deity). Also, in theory, it could be stated that the captured people may have also known the secrets of the sha'irs, since they could have killed the sha'irs servants and effectively cut them off (after all the elemental lords of Toril are not the same ones as the world they came from). Might kind of explain where some of the more odd spellcasters in the realms came from.
Oh, and there could be other reasons to build the gates. Maybe the people on the other worlds don't know how to use planar magics. I can see the Imaskari making the gates keyed to only Imaskari use. So effectively, they come over in some remote area, raid, then leave "off-world". Their enemies have no idea who is attacking them. They can't find them afterwards for vengeance. If they capture whole population centers at a time, then it could be days before anyone even realizes that X city is gone and mounts a search. Whereas if they're in Toril, they're enemies are more likely to find them.
I don't see the worlds being worlds of no magic just because the Imaskari might get stranded. Thus my take that the magic users of the world probably weren't as "advanced" in their forms of magic as the Imaskari. But, the lore is there for each to do with as they will. I just like playing the game of seeing "how much can the canon wording tie my hands". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:06:17
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In the end, I don't necessarily recall anything in canon lore saying these other worlds had no magic... but something makes me think there may have been maybe in one of the deity books?? My personal preference is that the other worlds did indeed have magic though. In fact, to my mind it would be interesting if they had some kind of elemental arcane magic ala wu-jen... and that this magic eventually spread to Zakhara and Kara-Tur. Perhaps the Imaskari enslaved these mages to help build their empire.
If the inhabitants of the other world had magic and were thus powerful enough to resist the Imaskari, what would be the point of getting the slaves from there?
It wouldn't be any easier than simply trying to enslave a society they found in Faerun. In essence, they'd have built two massive and expensive gates just so they'd be able to do the same thing they could do at home.
From Grand History of the Realms, p. 18:
"These twin portals gave access to another world whose inhabitants had no command of the Art." [emphasis mine]
The only way that it makes sense that the Imaskari would not be afraid of resistance from this world is that the people there were unable to use magic at all. And that is indeed what the text says. The Imaskari knew all kinds of magic and they called it all Art. Batrachi, sarruk, their own, the wu-jen in the east, netherese to the north-west, elves, all were using 'the Art'. These humans from another world couldn't.
Some Prime Material worlds are more magical than others. It makes perfect sense that the Imaskari would have picked one with a zero or near zero residual magic levels, meaning that only the most powerful mages could work magic there at all. In that case, their own Artificers could, with preparation, work what would have seemed to the inhabitants 'miracles', but no one there had the slightest chance of being able to oppose them magically.
If they hadn't, it wouldn't have been economically viable to try to rebuild their population with slave taking. Attacking someone of comparable strength isn't a good way to steal things of value. You pick someone who can't defend themselves.
I can see that point (easier to take weaker slaves), and truly my main focus was on where the lore came from and how it was phrased just to see what spin can be placed on things. Based on the phrasing (since some will say that "the art" is wizardry, some will say its "arcane magic only", and some will say "its all magic"), there is a chance that there were priests capable of magic use. I'd prefer this notion, and maybe this is why the godswall was thrown up (i.e. they could catch them, bring them here, and the people were effectively cut off from their deity). Also, in theory, it could be stated that the captured people may have also known the secrets of the sha'irs, since they could have killed the sha'irs servants and effectively cut them off (after all the elemental lords of Toril are not the same ones as the world they came from). Might kind of explain where some of the more odd spellcasters in the realms came from. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 18:07:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In the end, I don't necessarily recall anything in canon lore saying these other worlds had no magic... but something makes me think there may have been maybe in one of the deity books?? My personal preference is that the other worlds did indeed have magic though. In fact, to my mind it would be interesting if they had some kind of elemental arcane magic ala wu-jen... and that this magic eventually spread to Zakhara and Kara-Tur. Perhaps the Imaskari enslaved these mages to help build their empire.
If the inhabitants of the other world had magic and were thus powerful enough to resist the Imaskari, what would be the point of getting the slaves from there?
It wouldn't be any easier than simply trying to enslave a society they found in Faerun. In essence, they'd have built two massive and expensive gates just so they'd be able to do the same thing they could do at home.
From Grand History of the Realms, p. 18:
"These twin portals gave access to another world whose inhabitants had no command of the Art." [emphasis mine]
The only way that it makes sense that the Imaskari would not be afraid of resistance from this world is that the people there were unable to use magic at all. And that is indeed what the text says. The Imaskari knew all kinds of magic and they called it all Art. Batrachi, sarruk, their own, the wu-jen in the east, netherese to the north-west, elves, all were using 'the Art'. These humans from another world couldn't.
Some Prime Material worlds are more magical than others. It makes perfect sense that the Imaskari would have picked one with a zero or near zero residual magic levels, meaning that only the most powerful mages could work magic there at all. In that case, their own Artificers could, with preparation, work what would have seemed to the inhabitants 'miracles', but no one there had the slightest chance of being able to oppose them magically.
If they hadn't, it wouldn't have been economically viable to try to rebuild their population with slave taking. Attacking someone of comparable strength isn't a good way to steal things of value. You pick someone who can't defend themselves. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 14:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, at the beginning of all this its stated that the slaves taken had no magic. It sounds familiar.... but what source actually states that? I'm just wondering because... could it simply be that either they wouldn't bring over spellcasters as slaves OR that the particular spellcasting theory used by the slaves didn't work with the weave OR some similar type of thing.
Personally, I simply prefer that the Mulan peoples were from a more exotic world (as the Egyptian gods and Babylonian gods are worshipped in more than just Earth and Abeir-Toril).
The Grand History of the Realms states that the slaves were taken from a world where the inhabitants had no access to the Art.
This does not have to be Earth, of course, but it cannot have been too exotic, as a key point that led to its choice by the Imaskari was that unlike many other worlds, they did not have to fear an invasion by any force that could challenge them magically.
Of course, it is very true that there are likely many other worlds where these gods are worshipped. The Imaskari just preyed on those least likely to be able to defend themselves, i.e. those who for some reason could not access magic in their world.
Just wondering because I don't have the book handy, did it specifically phrase it that way "they didn't have access to the art". I ask, because that COULD be interpreted as fitting exactly some of the hypothesis' that I've put forward as well. They may not have had "wizards" (i.e. practictioners of the "art"), but maybe they had wu-jen.... and when those wu-jen were brought to Toril they had to rediscover how to make their magic work. Just a thought.
Oh, one other thought. Obviously as I've pointed out, these people could have been "wu-jen", but they also might have studied as sha'irs as well. However, when they were brought to Toril they lost access to their elemental companions (maybe such were killed, and the sha'ir didn't know how to contact the genies of Toril). Over time, the people of Toril rediscovered this lost art working with the genies of this Crystal Sphere. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 14:07:12
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, at the beginning of all this its stated that the slaves taken had no magic. It sounds familiar.... but what source actually states that? I'm just wondering because... could it simply be that either they wouldn't bring over spellcasters as slaves OR that the particular spellcasting theory used by the slaves didn't work with the weave OR some similar type of thing.
Personally, I simply prefer that the Mulan peoples were from a more exotic world (as the Egyptian gods and Babylonian gods are worshipped in more than just Earth and Abeir-Toril).
The Grand History of the Realms states that the slaves were taken from a world where the inhabitants had no access to the Art.
This does not have to be Earth, of course, but it cannot have been too exotic, as a key point that led to its choice by the Imaskari was that unlike many other worlds, they did not have to fear an invasion by any force that could challenge them magically.
Of course, it is very true that there are likely many other worlds where these gods are worshipped. The Imaskari just preyed on those least likely to be able to defend themselves, i.e. those who for some reason could not access magic in their world.
Just wondering because I don't have the book handy, did it specifically phrase it that way "they didn't have access to the art". I ask, because that COULD be interpreted as fitting exactly some of the hypothesis' that I've put forward as well. They may not have had "wizards" (i.e. practictioners of the "art"), but maybe they had wu-jen.... and when those wu-jen were brought to Toril they had to rediscover how to make their magic work. Just a thought.
This is weird too... I just searched the web and found this entry which looks to be from GHotR, but it doesn't say that the world had "no access to the art". Granted this might not be from the published form of the book as it is out on the web.
"Imaskari artificers open twin portals to another world and
magically abduct thousands of humans to serve as slaves. The
artificers then erect a planar barrier to prevent contact between
the slaves and their deities. Over time, the slaves intermarry with
the Imaskari, and their descendants become a race in their own
right that is later called the Mulan." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 13:43:28
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, at the beginning of all this its stated that the slaves taken had no magic. It sounds familiar.... but what source actually states that? I'm just wondering because... could it simply be that either they wouldn't bring over spellcasters as slaves OR that the particular spellcasting theory used by the slaves didn't work with the weave OR some similar type of thing.
Personally, I simply prefer that the Mulan peoples were from a more exotic world (as the Egyptian gods and Babylonian gods are worshipped in more than just Earth and Abeir-Toril).
The Grand History of the Realms states that the slaves were taken from a world where the inhabitants had no access to the Art.
This does not have to be Earth, of course, but it cannot have been too exotic, as a key point that led to its choice by the Imaskari was that unlike many other worlds, they did not have to fear an invasion by any force that could challenge them magically.
Of course, it is very true that there are likely many other worlds where these gods are worshipped. The Imaskari just preyed on those least likely to be able to defend themselves, i.e. those who for some reason could not access magic in their world.
Just wondering because I don't have the book handy, did it specifically phrase it that way "they didn't have access to the art". I ask, because that COULD be interpreted as fitting exactly some of the hypothesis' that I've put forward as well. They may not have had "wizards" (i.e. practictioners of the "art"), but maybe they had wu-jen.... and when those wu-jen were brought to Toril they had to rediscover how to make their magic work. Just a thought. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 13:34:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You need to study the Realms in-depth to understand the dynamics there.
In Ed's original, which Old Empires was based on, the Mulan had a type of magic that was a blend of Arcane and Divine, which means their Arcane casters recieved spells from their gods (it was loosly based on how magic was viewed in ancient Egypt).
Ergo, when the Mulan came from Earth, they did not have their gods (at first), and were therefor incapable of the type of magic they encountered on Toril.
Since 3e just fudged 'Southern magic' into regular magic, this point has become a bit lost.
No, arcane southern magic was never divine based in anything I've ever read. They just used a different script for defining how their magic worked. This would be akin somewhat to a mathematician writing his texts in say Latin and a modern day American with no experience in Latin trying to read them. They still had the same basis behind them, just the ability to interpret them was the problem. They also had no problem interpreting the spellbooks of other regions, but when transcribing them they'd use their own "symbols".
That all being said, I'd have no problem with their arcane spellcasters having a form of magic that couldn't draw upon the weave whenever they came over. Maybe the Imaskari were having to bring along "weave batteries" whenever they raided this other world, or maybe the Imaskari were using a form of magic that didn't depend on the filtered form of the weave but rather the raw well that Mystra drew from.
In the end, I don't necessarily recall anything in canon lore saying these other worlds had no magic... but something makes me think there may have been maybe in one of the deity books?? My personal preference is that the other worlds did indeed have magic though. In fact, to my mind it would be interesting if they had some kind of elemental arcane magic ala wu-jen... and that this magic eventually spread to Zakhara and Kara-Tur. Perhaps the Imaskari enslaved these mages to help build their empire. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 07:02:32
I've always wondered about this particular oddity...
In -1,561 DR, Netherese warriors from the southern part of their empire fight giants using a phalanx formation.
Now, the phalanx formation is no problem. In the real world, it is simply a very effective combat method that requires some very specific sociological, economic and political conditions for it to be effective. Broadly speaking, phlanxes have rarely, if ever, endured in systems where the men fighting in them are not men of property with a stake in local government, fighting next to men that they know and who have a similar background.*
In addition, if there are good horses around, the overwhelming odds are that the men who otherwise would be able to become good citizen-soldiers in the phalanx will be seduced by the heroic image of looking down on terrestial combatants and the barbaric notions of glory inherent in the man-to-man mobile combat of cavalry.
Because of this, city states are the best ground for a real phalanx to grow from and it has to happen either before horses became the most important thing on the battlefield or as a deliberate counter-move to that fact by city states in areas with few horses or no tradition or riding. We know that in areas of city states of the equivalent, where there were people of sufficient property and stake in the community, have independently developed the phalanx or something so similar as to be identical. Sumerians from 25th to 21st century BCE, Hellenes from 8th to 3rd century BCE, Swiss 15th to 17th century CE, etc.
The adoption of a longer spear and the elimination of the spear allowed the use of less motivated soldiers, which in turn led to the first mercenary phalanx, but it must be stressed that this transforms the phalanx proper into a heavily specialised arm which is exceptionally vulnerable to any combined arms approach and really only viable when facing opponents that stubbornly refuse to change their way of war.
So, there is nothing wrong with Netherese using the phalanx. Low Netheril quite simply likely had local councils or headmen which were more important in day-to-day running of the society than any distant arcanists of High Netheril. These men and their male relatives would have been fine phalangites.
No, the problem is why the Netherese call their generals 'Strategor', their formation of shield, spear and panoply soldiers 'phalanx', their elite professional warriors 'myrmidar' and single combat 'monomachia'. Why, in short, do these particular Netherese use recognisable Greek terms?
Modern Chessentans do the same in some ways, of course. But what relationship is there between these Netherese and modern Chessenta?
Are the modern Chessentans consciously imitating Netheril? If so, why? They are not the closest former glorious civilisation and they are not one that is likely to resonate with Chessentans.
Strategor Matick dies some 57 years before the Untheri invade the eastern provinces of Jhaamdath. In that conflict, it is likely that Chessentan national identity was, to some extent, formed. But Matick can't have been imitating anything he saw in that war, because it was after his last stand, not before it.
On the other hand, Unther first conquers the land called 'Chessenta' in -1,771 DR, or 150 years before the birth of Matick. It is possible that stories from that war might have reached whomever initiated the martial traditions in Netheril that resulted in Strategor Matick and the last stand of him and his myrmidar.
It is also possible that the land that the Untheri called Chessenta originally encompassed less than the modern land of Chessenta and that there were already city states under the protection** of Jhaamdath where modern Cimbar, Airspur, Soorenar and Akanax are. The time between 1,771 and 1,506 DR could have consisted of nearly constant warfare between the well-organised Untheri armies and local men who alternated between guerilla harrying and defending the relatively narrow land gap between the Maerwatch and the Adder Swamp with phalanxes against much larger armies of heroic chariots and less-enthusiastic infantry and archers.
It is certain that something delayed the Untheri between establishing a province named Chessenta and until they pushed through the Akanal frontier into Jhaamdath some 267 years later.
If this was so, the frequent and heroic stands of the proto-Chessentans against the encroaching Untheri might well have become the talk of warriors through Faerun, particularly those who had access to scrying magic. In this case, the Netherse choosing to model themselves on them to some degree becomes logical.
*Desperate courage and the throw of the dice for death or glory can be done by young men without nothing to lose and everything to win. The steady wait for death, the mechanical precision of footwork and rhythm and the necessity for absolute trust in the neighbours in the line, as well as the need to fight in 'cold blood' and not in a rage, these combined to make the phalanx utterly foreign to how humans are naturally disposed to behave in a violent confrontation.
**Or at least tolerance. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 20:30:33
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Speaking of Turami, didn't they have a civilization in the Methwood? Do you think the Mulan of Unther had any cultural influence from that civilization?
On re-reading everything I can about the Methwood, I'm inclined to believe that some of the hunter-gatherers who lived around the southern shore of the Inner Sea did form a society there.
It would have endured from ca 2,000 DR (or slightly earlier, even) until after the Untheri had lost their bug for driving out the less 'pure-blooded' from their lands. At that point, the innumerable perils of living next to a bunch of decaying portals would have begun to outweigh the suck factor of travelling through the lands of a militant, religiously-fanatical, racial-purity-obsessed imperial people.
I'm guessing that this happened some time before the Orcgate War, but after the beginning of war with the Jhaamdathans. While the first Untheri apparently had some fairly rabid prejudices against 'primitive' people, including the halflings and the Turami culture that used to occupy these lands, maybe they couldn't sustain the same level of rancour toward a people who had for centuries been free from the need to spend all their time on survival* and perhaps developed high standards of learning, craftsmanship, arts and magical lore.
These Turami, by now probably very wise in portal lore and the keepers of who-knows-what secrets, might then have dispersed through Chessenta and Unther, with a preference for areas ruled by the more humane or at least disinterested nobles.
Some would have had descendants who simply intergrated wholly into either society, most likely as artists and craftsmen. Others would have trekked all the way to Jhaamdath, quickly making Turami there not only an underclass of field labourers, but an important part of the middle-class as well.**
I've got an idea of making some of their most powerful mages the founders of the Untheri Enclave, a society of mages dedicated to studying the mysteries of magic, Imaskari and otherwise, but not evil or acquisative in nature. It fits, both geographically and 'story-wise'.
I'd put their emergence at around the uprising of the Northern group of Mulan Theurgic Adepts under Thayd. It would provide excellent cover and the titanic planar energies involved would not have been kind to the portals in the Metos. Likely enough, the Turami wizards earned the gratitute of Enlil for their help against the evil wizards of the North, allowing them to form the Enclave without undue interference.
*The Metos fortress included renewable stocks of food. While limited to supporting a society of 5,000 (suggesting that the Turami there learned birth-control on a societal scale, always a valuable lesson), it would have given the Turami immense amounts of extra free time and the innumerable secrets of the fortress would have provided them with incentive to explore, learn and change their society, in sharp contrast with a bountiful natural source of food (which often leads to societal stagnation, because there is no incentive to change). Perhaps decay in the portals that led to some of their food supply was the precipitating factor for their exodus from the Metos.
**From these would also come the notion of an ethnic and cultural identity seperate from Jhaamdath, a vital point in their eventual establishment of Turmish. I also expect that the Metos Turami, while perhaps not a society founded in aggressive posturing and raiding as an economic staple (as Proto-Indo-European societies seem to have been), had lost the cultural stigma against violence that seems to have characterised the Turami of the coast and the Akanul. My theory is that the Turami, when they arrived at the Inner Sea some time between 8,000 to 4,000 years before Dale Reckoning (most likely before -5,800 DR, but not too long before), had religious traditions strongly opposed to violence. The Metos population, living in an Imaskari fortress, would have become less devout, even adopting philosophic agnosticism or atheism (with many of them coming to adopt new gods in their exodus from the Metos). As such, they were not as pacifistic as the original population. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 20:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, at the beginning of all this its stated that the slaves taken had no magic. It sounds familiar.... but what source actually states that? I'm just wondering because... could it simply be that either they wouldn't bring over spellcasters as slaves OR that the particular spellcasting theory used by the slaves didn't work with the weave OR some similar type of thing.
Personally, I simply prefer that the Mulan peoples were from a more exotic world (as the Egyptian gods and Babylonian gods are worshipped in more than just Earth and Abeir-Toril).
The Grand History of the Realms states that the slaves were taken from a world where the inhabitants had no access to the Art.
This does not have to be Earth, of course, but it cannot have been too exotic, as a key point that led to its choice by the Imaskari was that unlike many other worlds, they did not have to fear an invasion by any force that could challenge them magically.
Of course, it is very true that there are likely many other worlds where these gods are worshipped. The Imaskari just preyed on those least likely to be able to defend themselves, i.e. those who for some reason could not access magic in their world. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 19:52:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Canon stands as official until over-written by newer lore.
So you are correct, Icelander - I ran into similar difficulties as well. Tom's work was brilliant and unbelievably detailed for its time, but it is showing its age.
As for the Mulan language - I would think it is a fairly new tongue ('new' being very subjective - by Earth-standards it would be 'ancient'), and a combination of several Mediterranean languages, Alzhedo (with Roushoum/Uloushinn), Taangan (derived from the K-T proto-language), and possibly several other minor sources, like Turami & Gur (Raumvari), and other non-human and off-world tongues as well.
By the time of the campaign setting, it would be an entirely new language. Only non-human languages would remain fairly static over centuries.
Mulhorandi and Untheric are actually likely to have remained unbelievably static over the centuries. Not only are they liturgial languages used in religious ceremony, but the gods worshipped in the language actually walked their lands and carried out all business of government in the language.
Languages change imperceptably with each generation, but there were only two generations at the top of the religious and secular hierarchy in Mulhorand and Uther, the first from -2,488 DR to -1,071 DR (-734 DR in Unther) and the second from then until 1358 DR. Two generations isn't a lot of time for change and, indeed, we see these two nations retaining their culture to a much greater extent* than any other nation around them.
What you would expect to see rather than linguistic evolution at the top levels of these societies is their languages coming to influence a lot of their neighbours and then developing rapidly away from the original language as soon as direct control over these areas is lost. And, indeed, this is what all canon points to for these languages in the Realms.
*This isn't to say that it takes direct divine intervention for such stasis to develop. Real-world Egyptian society (and language) didn't change much more than Mulhorand has done from 3,700 BCE to ca 600 BCE, a period of over three thousand years. A culture of tradition maintained by a strong priesthood, combined with a form of writing available only to those trained in the traditions first, can work wonders. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 19:37:30
Canon stands as official until over-written by newer lore.
So you are correct, Icelander - I ran into similar difficulties as well. Tom's work was brilliant and unbelievably detailed for its time, but it is showing its age.
As for the Mulan language - I would think it is a fairly new tongue ('new' being very subjective - by Earth-standards it would be 'ancient'), and a combination of several Mediterranean languages, Alzhedo (with Roushoum/Uloushinn), Taangan (derived from the K-T proto-language), and possibly several other minor sources, like Turami & Gur (Raumvari), and other non-human and off-world tongues as well.
By the time of the campaign setting, it would be an entirely new language. Only non-human languages would remain fairly static over centuries. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 19:16:44
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article from Dragon Annual #4 is absolutely canon. Just because some designers chose to ignore it or were ignorant of its existence doesn't change that. That’s not to say that it’s infallible, but in the absence of contradicting lore the article should be held as the authority on the subject of languages in the Realms.
Hmmmm....
As I said, I have no problems with those parts of it that do not contradict other lore.
On the other hand, there are some fairly major issues with it, now that some 6,000 years of history that were not yet revealed at the time it was written have come to light, as well as more accurate dating and a more comprehensive picture of the history of Faerun's early human groups.
I don't plan to actually invalidate any of the languages, but I do plan to state that some languages had been categorised together because of certain similarities, but that these similarities actually reflect both having been influenced by the same thing at a later date or even what appears to be some form of convergent evolution.
For example, we now know that Alzhedo dates to approximately the same time as the first settlement of the Raurin by the Imaskari and thus considerably pre-dates all the other 'Rauric' languages. We also know that unlike the languages that give its name to the two subfamilies under the 'Rauric' family, Alzhedo long pre-dates the Imaskari slave-taking on Earth (or an analogue).
It seems, therefore, that the origins of Alzhedo and most probably Midani as well, are not connected with the origins of Mulan languages. Their classification with them is based on certain similarities, a canon explanation for which has not yet been found, but should not imply a common historical origin.
By the same token, the language group called 'Uluo' includes the language of the Ulutiuns and the languages of the Netherese and related cultures. Considering that the Ulutiuns are canonically stated to be a new arrival from Kara-Tur, post-dating the other groups speaking these languages by a couple of millenia, it seems impossible that the classification reflects the kind of close common origin than traditional language families do. This seems to be a geographic classification more than reflecting a true linguistic relationship*, with a more accurate representation splitting the languages into a Netherese family, an Ulutiun family and a fairly extensive group of creoles between them, reflecting members of the proto-Ulutiun who settled in more hospitable climes during Netherese times.
If these kinds of interpretation are not considered to be a violation of canon, I can certainly still use much of the article. If this is going further than interpreting, into stating canon to be wrong, however, then the past 13 years of canon have invalidated much of the article already and only those parts of it that apply to the Heartlands are likely to be very useful.
*Earth-scholars have revised quite a few language families of the last couple of decades because they discovered just such mistakes, so it's likely that Faerunian sages have the same problems. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:42:08
I'm okay with Southern magic being done away with. Something so different as a mix of arcane-and-divine magic, yet no other human (or non-human) culture has access to something that different. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:39:14
You need to study the Realms in-depth to understand the dynamics there.
In Ed's original, which Old Empires was based on, the Mulan had a type of magic that was a blend of Arcane and Divine, which means their Arcane casters recieved spells from their gods (it was loosly based on how magic was viewed in ancient Egypt).
Ergo, when the Mulan came from Earth, they did not have their gods (at first), and were therefor incapable of the type of magic they encountered on Toril.
Since 3e just fudged 'Southern magic' into regular magic, this point has become a bit lost. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:32:04
Just wondering, at the beginning of all this its stated that the slaves taken had no magic. It sounds familiar.... but what source actually states that? I'm just wondering because... could it simply be that either they wouldn't bring over spellcasters as slaves OR that the particular spellcasting theory used by the slaves didn't work with the weave OR some similar type of thing.
Personally, I simply prefer that the Mulan peoples were from a more exotic world (as the Egyptian gods and Babylonian gods are worshipped in more than just Earth and Abeir-Toril). |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:31:05
Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article from Dragon Annual #4 is absolutely canon. Just because some designers chose to ignore it or were ignorant of its existence doesn't change that. That’s not to say that it’s infallible, but in the absence of contradicting lore the article should be held as the authority on the subject of languages in the Realms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:29:07
Yup.
That means the zoot-suit wearing beholder (Vikhrumn) is canon as well. 
I loved 'Gangsters of the Underdark', and it appeared in my favorite issue - the one with Ed's Athalantar article. 
But anyhow, although I also had some problems with Tom's article, I adjusted my own 'history of the world' accordingly. Canon is canon - I bend it, twist it, even redefine it, but I don't ignore it (even the really bad stuff). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 16:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That is, unless you can confirm that his article was ever regarded as Realms canon, as opposed to interesting speculation by a fan.
It was published in Dragon. That makes it canon.
Does it? Dragon has a lot of advice for DMs, as well as Realmslore. The beginning of the article certainly gives the impression that this is primarily a rule-set of the author's creation, attached to the Realms (by making Realms-language groups equivalent to real-world ones), but not necessarily making declarative statements about the pre-history of the world.
When questioned about it, I've had Realms-authors state that they did not even know about it when writing their novels, let alone consider it canon for the world.
The 3e FRCS has what I consider a 'simplified' section on languages, i.e. each language known by a character in the rule set actually represents a whole range of more or less related languages, with the precise differences glossed over. That makes sense in D&D rules, but it doesn't prevent DMs and players from retaining old distinctions from prior lore.
As I noted in the previous post, this article was clearly not consulted when writing 3e historical lore. If the 3e designers and novel authors did not consider it canon, is it?
Maybe someone should ask Ed whether the article was vetted by him and whether it represents actual linguistic relationships as he sees them or merely a fan's attempt to relate Realms languages to real-world ones.
Forgotten Realms material published in Dragon was canon. It didn't matter if it was vetted by Ed or not -- it was material published by the company that owned the setting.
It also doesn't matter what some Realms-authors have said. Since 3E came out, we've had an increasing tendency to not worry about prior lore, whether that meant not doing relevant research, or even disregarding what was written before. That does not change the fact that FR material published by Wizards (and TSR before) remains canon until it is trumped by newer lore, or unless it is specifically stated to not be canon, like the DDTS books. This is Wizards policy. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Speaking of Turami, didn't they have a civilization in the Methwood? Do you think the Mulan of Unther had any cultural influence from that civilization?
Some of them lived in the Methwood, in the period between the fall of Imaskar (whose outpost it was before then) and the arrival of the Untheri.
When the Mulan displaced them, they were stated to be a hunter-gatherer people. So it depends on how you define 'civilisation'. I imagine that they were, at that time at least, a peaceful people, evidenced by their lack of attempted resistance against either the Untheri, Mulhorandi or the Jhaamdathans, all of whom either drove them out or incorporated them as lower classes.
I doubt that the Turami of the time influenced early Unther to any extent. Indeed, Unther is said to have purged its land of all those not of pure Mulan blood* and done the same with its province of Chessenta in the 18th century pre-DR, with the Turami specifically named as those driven out. Mulhorand is then supposed to have taken in those driven out.
How to reconcile this with the fact that Chessenta has 10% Turami living there, Unther 15% and Mulhorand only 1-2%, I am not sure.
I suppose that the 3,000 years since then are quite enough for the original Turami thus driven out to have merged completely into the Mulan stock of Mulhorand**. Those living in Chessenta and Unther must then be more modern immigrants. Evidently there remained some populations of free Turami who did not emigrate to Turmish, when it was founded.
It is also possible that when the Old Empires book speaks of the Untheri expelling those not of 'pure blood' and the Mulhorandi taking them in, these people were simply those Mulan in whom the Mesopotamian and Egytpian blood had mixed. The fact that it is specified that they loudly worshipped the Mulhorandi gods makes this plausible.
The Untheri, several centuries later, may then also have tried to expel Turami, but that will have been less successful and only resulted in them moving beyond their reach and some of them (those who did not eventually move to Turmish) coming back after the Untheri lost interest in such games.
*I am at loss for explaining where they got that idea, as the concept of racial purity would (deservedly so) have been quite foreign to the cosmopolitan and multiracial inhabitants of Mesopotamia. In fact, evidence suggests that the Untheri were descended from at least three and possibly six distinct ethnic groups, three of whom may have had no linguistic relationship with the others.
**But why on Earth are they so pale, then? They live in a very hot place, have a significant admixture of 'black' ancestry and, in short, every reason to be coloured pretty much like Markus's Moors, at least. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:20:33
Speaking of Turami, didn't they have a civilization in the Methwood? Do you think the Mulan of Unther had any cultural influence from that civilization? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Moors in Spain came from Africa - they were a bit darker then the Middle-Eastern variety.
I'm aware where the Moors came from. Not that 'Moors' is a useful term for ethnicity, being externally applied to wide range of people. Most of them were Berbers, but a few of them were Hausa or other 'black Africans' who had adopted Islam.
All the same, the Turami are described as corresponding to what we call 'Nilotic' peoples in appearance, while the Moors mostly corresponded to Afroasitic peoples.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, the Chultan Peninsula has a 'Barbary coast' feel to it. Note both groups are of Turami derivation. 
Are they?
I must confess that any canon mention of a relationship of the Thinguth, the Tabaxi, the Lapal and the Tashalans to the Turami have so forth eluded me.
Of course, there is a good chance that all Faerunian ethnic groups, barring the occasional planar interloper, have a common ancestor no further removed than ca 30,000-40,000 years. Apart from that, I don't see any reason to believe that the Turami and anyone living in Chult are particularly related.
Other than, as noted earlier, that the Turami would have had to live at or very near the equator for a long time, been fairly recently removed from that area and to have eaten a diet rich in Vitamen D, in order to retain their equatorial plains adaptations. The Shaar, evidently, is not quite hot enough to necessiate full-on equatorial adaptation.*
*Otherwise the Shaaran nomads would long since have acquired them. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:05:31
I see what you're getting at. I do like that part of the Realms and it was nice to see it get such detail in Serpent Kingdoms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:03:24
I don't mean Chult itself - I mean all those little countries on 'the arm' (detailed in Serpent Kingdoms).
Except it worked in reverse of RW history - the Calishites invaded and subdued the region (whereas in the RW, the Moors swept across N.Africa and invaded up into the Iberian peninsula).
The language article infers a connection between Calimshan and Zakhara as well (from our earlier conversation). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 05:59:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That is, unless you can confirm that his article was ever regarded as Realms canon, as opposed to interesting speculation by a fan.
It was published in Dragon. That makes it canon.
Does it? Dragon has a lot of advice for DMs, as well as Realmslore. The beginning of the article certainly gives the impression that this is primarily a rule-set of the author's creation, attached to the Realms (by making Realms-language groups equivalent to real-world ones), but not necessarily making declarative statements about the pre-history of the world.
When questioned about it, I've had Realms-authors state that they did not even know about it when writing their novels, let alone consider it canon for the world.
The 3e FRCS has what I consider a 'simplified' section on languages, i.e. each language known by a character in the rule set actually represents a whole range of more or less related languages, with the precise differences glossed over. That makes sense in D&D rules, but it doesn't prevent DMs and players from retaining old distinctions from prior lore.
As I noted in the previous post, this article was clearly not consulted when writing 3e historical lore. If the 3e designers and novel authors did not consider it canon, is it?
Maybe someone should ask Ed whether the article was vetted by him and whether it represents actual linguistic relationships as he sees them or merely a fan's attempt to relate Realms languages to real-world ones. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 05:50:34
I kinda disagree. I don't recall Chult being known for Pirates, and it's also a Jungle as opposed to desert. Also, Berbers (Moors) aren't any darker than Arabs (not that skin tone is what makes one Sub-Saharan African or what many people call "Black people" and I think we should get away from this real world topic of skin color so the mods don't swoop in.) Not that such things really matter to the Realms, and I'm largely for Ed's philosophy of not sticking too close to the real world.
In the end, Turmish isn't some real world country. It's Turmish. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 05:31:39
The Moors in Spain came from Africa - they were a bit darker then the Middle-Eastern variety.
I've never been to Morrocco (my Mom, dad & sister have), but I get a definite 'Moroccan' vibe form Turmish.
On the other hand, the Chultan Peninsula has a 'Barbary coast' feel to it. Note both groups are of Turami derivation. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 05:27:35
Yeah, people forget how long thousands of years is to a human culture.
Regarding Turmish, I could see a Moorish influence in Turmish if a DM wanted it there for their games. Unlike the Moors, who were Arab/Berber, the Turmish are quite black, but there's no reason they have to therefore have an African culture. I've always homebrewed them as having a very Mediterranean culture (and the rest of the Vilhon as well). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 04:41:46
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That is, unless you can confirm that his article was ever regarded as Realms canon, as opposed to interesting speculation by a fan.
It was published in Dragon. That makes it canon. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 04:03:48
I have read his article, yes, but what's it based on? Ed? Costa's own musings, many of them before certain facts came to light?
I find many things there quite interesting, but other things clash rather harshly with published history and the way languages evolve.
For one thing, the Imaskari family is being equated to Turkic languages, but it includes under it some 6,000 years of history before the fall of Imaskar and 3,000 after it, not to mention incomprehensably vast geographies. There is little reason to expect all of these languages to share a source and even less to expect their familial relations to endure forever. The article is clearly written in an era where 'pre-dating the Mulhorand and Unther nations' was unimaginably ancient, but in fact anything called 'Imaskari' must have done so.
In addition, there is no canon support for supposing that Midani is related to Untheric. The only reason would be the fact that some of the languages distantly related to the ones that original Untheri would have spoken eventually, in the real world, evolved into Arabic.
In fact, we have conclusive proof that a proto-language of Alzhedo* existed on Toril contemporary with the establishment of the first Imaskari settlements and before it becomes an Empire. This happens millenia before any Mulan are seen on Toril.
Mujhuri, despite no doubt significant influence by the Mulhorandi of their conquerors and suzerains, appears to have retained a strong element which resembles Midani.
Supposing that a great number of Midani speakers arrived in the north-east parts of the Rauric and the Plains of Purple Dust (quickly making their way to more hospitable land) in -339 DR (by the Scattering of Fate) and the language and culture of these newcomers was fairly successful in displacing the 'original' Durpari*** settlers in Murghom and less so in Semphar, we have a fairly good explanation for these two lands.
The Mulhorandi would have exerted effective authority there between ca -1,490 DR to -1,087 DR, theoretical authority (with more or less enforcement) after that, and effective authority again between ca 205 DR to ca 922 DR (for Semphar, at least) and then sporadically for Murghom after that. The arriving Mujhuri are therefore in a good position to establish themselves in the new country, with Mulhorand quiescent for a long time after the Orcgate War and with what little external focus it had preoccupied the threat of the two empires to the north.
The Great Conflagration, the Summoned and the War of the Claws would then have provided ample distraction for the Mulhorandi, whose god-kings of the era were not over fond of involving their land in the outside world.
I would not put Midani in a language group with Untheric, but I might be persuaded that Durpari might share linguistic roots with a proto-Zakharan language and that another branch of this proto-language would also have been spoken by the original Imaskari.
On the other hand, the 10+ millenia since then** would have caused them to diverge far enough to make any relationship impossible to confirm. After all, on Earth, linguistic history past 5,000 years is largely the realm of frenzied guess-work. For all we know; Suomi, Icelandic, Cornish, Basque, Turkish, Mongolian and Berber might all have sprung from one language within the time-frame that this article attempts to trace Realms-languages.
As far as Costa's article collects canon found elsewhere, I find it invaluable. Where I think he has invented canon of his own, I am forced to discard it where it conflicts with later lore, at least if I can't reconcile it. That is, unless you can confirm that his article was ever regarded as Realms canon, as opposed to interesting speculation by a fan.
*Evidently far more related to Midani than any language the Untheri were likely to speak.
**Most without writing.
***Having existed around the Golden Water since at least -8,350 DR, the Durparis must have produced a great number of ethnic groups and languages (whether all of these were lost to history except the ones called Durpari today, is, of course, a matter for speculation), since that is enough time for almost any linguistic and physical evolution. So successive waves of them colonising Murghom and Semphar from -1922 to -1500 DR would not necessarily produce a culture, language or 'race' that in -339 DR (let alone today) much resembled the ones who remained behind. |
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