| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 03:26:37
Multi-Age service is not a new concept. Many successful brands have used it extensively. What is different about the Realms is that it is the flagship of a game product--it exists to sell the game product, and when the game product changes, so too does the Realms.
As annoying as RSE's are, the divisive ones have almost always been tied to system changes.
1E to 2E saw the death of Cavaliers, Assassins, Monks, and the REAL Illusionists. The game team felt like they needed to explain why these things were disappearing in-story and resulted in all of Bhaal's assassins simultaneously dying and other assorted weird stuff. This didn't enhance the story/theme of the Realms, it was just served up to the authors as something they needed to explain because this will be good for game sales.
2E to 3E was a little smoother, but still had wild aberrations like:
Game Designer: Know what would be cool? Elves with a Charisma bonus that have light bulbs that hang in front of their heads! We really need a charisma bonus race. Someone make this happen in a novel!
3E to 4E has been the most painful cut, the throes of which we're still suffering from.
I'd rather see D&D publish a game, and FR people publish FR stories. If FR wants to hire D&D to publish and FR game, that's great. If not D&D, then maybe GURPS, or Palladium, or whatever. Or maybe all of them, and let the fittest survive.
While we're at it, liberate the other settings as well. They can live successfully without D&D, but I don't think that the reverse is also true. IMO, story has been enslaved to game design for too long.
Who's with me on this? |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 03:27:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My issue is that Sigil just ain't that big, serving as the waystation (and oftentimes the destination) of travellers hailing from all possible corners of the universe must make things get impossibly crowded.
Don't forget they build up *and* down. Buildings are multi-storied, and you can dig into the ground in Sigil -- in fact that's an UnderSigil. So expect some interesting architecture as well as the question of diameter/width/radius/torque. [Last one added for fun.] It's also well known that Sigil curves at the edges -- so it's more a torus than a short cylinder.
And the actual size of the city seems to change at the Lady's whim. So I expect it can easily accommodate more than one-million inhabitants/travellers, when the need is great enough. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 02:50:32
Yeah, I'd often wondered a bit about Sigil. I've got no problem with Sigil sitting on top of an infinitely tall spire, or being located at the center of the infinitely layered expanses which orbit about it, or being able to arbitrarily connect with any other place in defiance to all known rules, or even having those weird symbol-speaking janitors ... that stuff's all just par for the Planescape course. My issue is that Sigil just ain't that big, serving as the waystation (and oftentimes the destination) of travellers hailing from all possible corners of the universe must make things get impossibly crowded. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 02:47:25
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it.
I could never really understand why the drow were popular, personally. Perhaps because I tired of Drizzt and Underberranzan and all rather quickly. Although I can understand (intellectually) that elves and drow and their gods are all immensely popular.
I'll grant that it's likely not applicable in every case, but I think a great majority of the love for the drow and their associated "Dark Seldarine" comes from the infatuation many fans have with the concepts of "dark" and "Ooo! Scary evil" and such. Not that there's anything wrong with that... it's always a winning market for any genre, really. "Dark" and "evil," like "sex," often sells. And the drow and drow deities tap into that desire among readers and gamers who love what the race and the pantheon represent.
It's largely the same reason, I believe, that the Shade Empire is so popular.
All the kewl kids wanna be supa' badass, in other words. 
There may be some truth to that, given the fact that Drizzt often seems like the first point of entry into the Realms for many readers and newcomers to the setting.
Granted, a number of grognards, like myself, had the luxury of being with the Realms from the beginning in 1987. But as the decades pass, and the promotion of Drizzt continues, apparently unabated, I think more and more, older fans and readers will eventually come to see the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting as suffering from something I've dubbed the "Snake Eyes" phenomenon.
During the height of popularity with Snake Eyes and the G.I. Joe comic book in the mid-1990's, the title of the book changed somewhat to SNAKE EYES, NINJA FORCE and G.I. Joe.
Now, imagine a future FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting being released as DRIZZT DO'URDEN and the Forgotten Realms. Hehe... 
I'm offering this all in an extreme case of jocularity, of course. I don't actually think this would happen.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 02:37:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I am genuinely happy that the Gith races have thus far escaped being mangled by Wizbro. I like them just as they are, obscure and untouched, so I suppose the popularity of the drow has actually done me great service.
The Gith races often tend to be overlooked, for the most part. I suspect that this may simply have to do with the fact that most planar-related matters [races, places, and so forth] are usually secondary concerns when it comes to campaign development. Primarily, focus is set on the Material Plane of a campaign world, as it should be.
That's why PLANESCAPE was often unique, I suppose, in that the focus of the setting wasn't strictly on any one world... but, quite literally, all of them -- in the general respect that each and every world was [and, probably still is, given the loosest definition possible of 'Material Plane' in the current cosmology] a plane, just like everywhere else in the multiverse. |
| Therise |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 01:55:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it.
I could never really understand why the drow were popular, personally. Perhaps because I tired of Drizzt and Underberranzan and all rather quickly. Although I can understand (intellectually) that elves and drow and their gods are all immensely popular.
I'll grant that it's likely not applicable in every case, but I think a great majority of the love for the drow and their associated "Dark Seldarine" comes from the infatuation many fans have with the concepts of "dark" and "Ooo! Scary evil" and such. Not that there's anything wrong with that... it's always a winning market for any genre, really. "Dark" and "evil," like "sex," often sells. And the drow and drow deities tap into that desire among readers and gamers who love what the race and the pantheon represent.
It's largely the same reason, I believe, that the Shade Empire is so popular.
All the kewl kids wanna be supa' badass, in other words.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 01:48:25
I am genuinely happy that the Gith races have thus far escaped being mangled by Wizbro. I like them just as they are, obscure and untouched, so I suppose the popularity of the drow has actually done me great service. Go, Drizzt, go, you decoy my hero! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 01:36:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it.
I could never really understand why the drow were popular, personally. Perhaps because I tired of Drizzt and Underberranzan and all rather quickly. Although I can understand (intellectually) that elves and drow and their gods are all immensely popular.
I'll grant that it's likely not applicable in every case, but I think a great majority of the love for the drow and their associated "Dark Seldarine" comes from the infatuation many fans have with the concepts of "dark" and "Ooo! Scary evil" and such. Not that there's anything wrong with that... it's always a winning market for any genre, really. "Dark" and "evil," like "sex," often sells. And the drow and drow deities tap into that desire among readers and gamers who love what the race and the pantheon represent.
It's largely the same reason, I believe, that the Shade Empire is so popular. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 01:08:55
quote:
Wooly Rupert
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it.
I could never really understand why the drow were popular, personally. Perhaps because I tired of Drizzt and Underberranzan and all rather quickly. Although I can understand (intellectually) that elves and drow and their gods are all immensely popular.
To paraphrase Dennis, for those who are alien to the drow novels, it doesn't really matter. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 00:43:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
As annoying as RSE's are, the divisive ones have almost always been tied to system changes.
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it.
I've no issue with the culling of any pantheon, so long as it's a justifiable element handled within the story, and not performed merely to cut down the number of deities for campaign-purposes.
Or deity-fix-ups, where-upon multiple similar deities are merged to tidy-up pantheons -- much like Eric Boyd did in the days of 2e. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 16:25:05
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
When Ed decides he wants FR uncoupled from D&D, then that will be fine with me.
Equally, when I recently mentioned unyoking the Realms from D&D, I didn't mean separating them entirely, just not having the world subservient to the latest rules and materially sliced and diced to match their conventions, principles, imagery and so on, as if it was just a convenience of fluff serving the game and not an artistic creation in its own right and with its own integrity. And on this I'm certainly with Ed too.
Also: 'Forgotten Realms Roleplaying Game?'
This I can agree with. Even without RSEs, many things have been changed in the Realms purely because of rule changes. Decoupling the setting from every latest edition would negate a lot of unnecessary changes/retcons. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 16:04:22
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
As annoying as RSE's are, the divisive ones have almost always been tied to system changes.
The culling of the drow pantheon is rather unpopular, and though that one is often spoken of as leading into the changes of 4E, in my mind it is not really connected to it. |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 15:41:00
In my homebrew Realms, we divorced from D&D and played with Rolemaster rules for several years. So it's possible, certainly.
That said, I'm not sure what the benefit would be for the Realms if it was formally separated from D&D. I expect more people would see it as a cutting loose with little or no intent for future support.
I don't think it would be beneficial so much as it would be confusing. If you really want to play with different rules, it is possible anyway. No need to do it formally, IMO.
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| Seravin |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 15:39:39
quote:
As annoying as RSE's are, the divisive ones have almost always been tied to system changes.
I was thinking just last night, that controversial RSE are not a strictly TSR invention, as much as we hate RSE happening too often.
Just before the Grey Box set in the Year of the Worm (2 years prior) there was a rather catastrophic RSE in the Flight of the Dragons...Yulash and Phlan destroyed; 9,000 soldiers killed at the Citadel of the Raven; One of the Chosen (Sylune) was killed; Suzail, Shadowdale, Hillsfar and Zhentil Keep all suffered major damage. I guess compared to the RSE of the ToT and the 3rd edition return of Shade and certainly compared to the Spellplague that stuff is relatively minor tho...
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 15:35:00
While I do not think that it feasible to divorce the Realms from D&D at this time, I do think that it is feasible to divorce Realmslore from D&D Editions. This way, they can pull fans from all eras of the Realms back together and maybe. Also, for those who want some "crunch" to go with the "fluff," they can publish DDI articles to support the current rules set in the Realms. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 14:19:00
For those who are alien to the game, it doesn't really matter. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 13:51:58
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
1E to 2E saw the death of Cavaliers, Assassins, Monks, and the REAL Illusionists. The game team felt like they needed to explain why these things were disappearing in-story and resulted in all of Bhaal's assassins simultaneously dying and other assorted weird stuff. This didn't enhance the story/theme of the Realms, it was just served up to the authors as something they needed to explain because this will be good for game sales.
Sounds like you might be relying on the rules too much. Try to think of the edition rules as a guide and not the law (for whichever edition you prefer) Or try combining things you enjoy from multiple editions. I played tons of 2E Assassins, as fighter classes and rogue classes.  |
| Faraer |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 12:22:45
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
When Ed decides he wants FR uncoupled from D&D, then that will be fine with me.
Equally, when I recently mentioned unyoking the Realms from D&D, I didn't mean separating them entirely, just not having the world subservient to the latest rules and materially sliced and diced to match their conventions, principles, imagery and so on, as if it was just a convenience of fluff serving the game and not an artistic creation in its own right and with its own integrity. And on this I'm certainly with Ed too.
Also: 'Forgotten Realms Roleplaying Game?' |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 09:47:02
An D&D-successor game made up by Ed from scratch? E&E? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 09:20:09
I would personally love to see a BRP version of the Realms or a system designed from scratch, but as Erik said, that would have to be something completely up to Ed. And I am not sure how big a success it would be in the first place. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 08:04:33
I don't want to learn a new roleplaying system like Pathfinder or Gurps Q________________Q |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 06:19:10
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
When Ed decides he wants FR uncoupled from D&D, then that will be fine with me.
That goes for me as well.
I've been with Ed since the beginning of the officially published Realms. And I will be with him until the end... and everything in-between.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 06:02:19
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that would depend on who..... never you mind... hey SAge.. is there aprticular reason this scroll is open still, we all know that it's not going to happen anytime soon if at all.
long live the realms....
Many things have been proposed that are unlikely to happen. There's no reason to close a scroll, just because something is unlikely. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 05:34:30
that would depend on who..... never you mind... hey SAge.. is there aprticular reason this scroll is open still, we all know that it's not going to happen anytime soon if at all.
long live the realms.... |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 05:03:02
I follow Ed on this.
Ed made the choice long ago to publish the Realms through TSR. He signed a particular contract (one that works for him). He could take back the Realms in theory, but what then? He doesn't have the money or power to publish it the way a game design company does. Sure, he could sell it to Paizo or any other company, but that would involve signing a new contract, one that would likely not give him nearly as much creative control/influence as he already has.
When Ed decides he wants FR uncoupled from D&D, then that will be fine with me.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 04:09:01
Eh.
Officially, the Realms is a D&D setting. I see no serviceable reason to alter that relationship until such time as a new rules-set is published that can ably reproduce the classic days of gaming in the FORGOTTEN REALMS.
And I leave the interpretation of "classic" to whatever each scribe deems is appropriate from their own point-of-view.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 04:05:08
quote:
Aulduron
I forget, did 2E Illusionists get Alter Reality as a 7th level spell?
Yes. Although not in the PHB, in fact not until supplements released several years later.
2E illusionists did have access to 8th and 9th level spells, eventually including wish, limited wish, and several other similar magics. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 03:37:08
I forget, did 2E Illusionists get Alter Reality as a 7th level spell? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 03:36:26
When I win the lotto.. I'll purchase it from wotc and go straight to soverein press.....
I'm kinda with you and kinda not, but this path is foolish as well as the only real way that it could happen is if wotc violated all the you just lost the realms legal issues. or just decided to flick a bugger in the eye of hasbro and give it back to Ed Greenwood alltogether lock stock and barrel.
and that and only that would return the realms to Ed Greenwood.
He would then be able to republish the realms via SP or Paizo. the REalms would loose the Seldarine that came over from greyhawk and dnd would lose Bane.which would mean a massive retcon and thus maybe a reboot.
I don't see this as a good idea.... in the long run. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 03:33:07
Actually I feel 2E illusionists were not inferior to their 1E predecessors. The other specialist wizards might have stolen much glory from illusionists, but overall they were a great improvement.
Other than that, I do not with to get involved in your argument and will offer no commentary. |
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