| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 01:46:08
Several years ago, I started a campaign set in Cimbar, Chessenta. The background had a charismatic leader (Ixander) beginning to unite the city-states of Chesenta into a powerful empire. The plan was to have a powerful, united Chesenta invade troubled Unther, conquer it, and then threaten Mulhorand and the north coast cities. Sort of a la Alexander the Great. The campaign fell apart before a few session were done, and I never got to see how it would pan out.
Question: Given the population of Chesenta, and the large number of Chesentan mercenaries that operate outside the area, would such events be possible? Likely? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| lowtech |
Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 18:35:24
I forgot to mention, the bandit leader/resistance fighter Furifax worships Tempus and has an alliance with the Tiamatan Church through Tiglath (who may choose to switch allegiences now that she realizes the true nature of Tiamat). If Tiglath switches allegiences, I think she would most likely defect to the Selunite, Mystran, or Hoar factions (in that order). Furifax is likely to eventually ally with whichever faction Tiglath supports (they have a long history together) though thats iffy (he is of lawful evil alignment).
Selune is heavily involved in the Untheric resistance, primarily through resistance groups composed of former slaves (bringing her faction into inevitable opposition with the Banite and Tiamatan factions). Her main agent is mentioned in the Old Empires section of the FRCS.
Mystra is represented by the Northern Magicians that (precariously) rule the city of Messemprar(sp). She also has influence in Mordulkin, given the heavy concentration of magicians in that city. The Northern Magicians are seeking an alliance with the Selunite faction, which may invite the wrath of factions that support slavery.
The Thayans are providing material support to various factions: Any faction can probably work out an arrangement with someone in Thay,usually at the price of accomodating Thayan policies to a significant extent.
That's it for now. The potential political conspiracies (and betrayals) are endless! |
| lowtech |
Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 18:00:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ah...I knew Set had to come into it sooner or later.
This is all very interesting lowtech...Mind if I steal borrow some of your ideas for my own Chessentan campaign, coming up in March...?
I don't mind at all, you can use (and alter) any of my ideas. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Jan 2004 : 06:55:35
Ah...I knew Set had to come into it sooner or later.
This is all very interesting lowtech...Mind if I steal borrow some of your ideas for my own Chessentan campaign, coming up in March...?
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| lowtech |
Posted - 16 Jan 2004 : 16:55:56
On a side note, if the Karonaks are exiled from Lucheq, Tiamat is likely to retain their cult in other lands to gain power from anti-magic hysteria. Its really a no-lose proposition for her.
Tiamat is currently one of the major powers involved in the (fractured) Untheric resistance movement. She is allied with Set in that endeavor.
The city of Akanax is smaller than many Chessentan cities, but its the military equivalent of Sparta. All male citizens are conscripted, and there is a HUGE permanent army camped outside that outnumbers the city residents by two-to-one (about 50,000 soilders). The city is controlled by King Hippartes(sp)and the Church of Hoar. Hippartes is recongnized as the greatest General in Chessenta, and served as Hoar's avatar during the Time of Troubles. Hoar has an obsessive vendetta against Anhur, the Mulhorandi God of War and whose Church was the instigator of the Mulhorandi invasion of Unther. Anhur seized the portfolio of Marduk, an Untheric Deity that had exiled Hoar (aka Assuran) from Unther and was subsequently destroyed by Hoar during the Godswar. To add insult to injury, many mercenaries that previously worshipped Hour switched allegiances to Anhur and defected to his side in the midst of a war engineered by Hoar to regain his place in Unther. This opens the door to an alliance with Tempus, a rival of Anhur for the title of God of War in Chessenta and Unther. Crusading Tempuran mercenaries fighting alongside the forces of Akanax would be a major obstacle against Mulhorandi expansion.
Hoar also has a somewhat precarious base of support in Mourktar, a city north of Messemprar(sp) and the dominant power in Thresk. The city used to be ruled by partisans of Hoar, but has recently become dominated by partisans of Bane (Mourktar is home to the largest Temple of Bane in Faerun, a fact that one would have thought warranted its inclusion in the FRCS map, but I guess not). This position enables the Church of Bane to play a major role in the Untheric resistance while consolidating their power in Mourktar. Bane also has a major Temple in Reth (a city just outside western Chessenta), through which he seeks to spread his influence into Chessenta. Bane and Tiamat are, needless to say, huge rivals in Chessenta and Unther.
That's the situation concerning the Evil and Nuetral divine partisans from the Faerunian Pantheon in the Old Empires. I'll have more about the forces of Good (Mystra and Selune) later. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 15 Jan 2004 : 18:54:36
I'll do what I can without the sourcebooks on hand:
The Church of "Tchazzar" is concentrated in Cimbar (the traditional "capitol" of Chessenta) and Sorrenar(sp). These are neighboring cities and traditional rivals. They are also the two largest cities in Chessenta. They are located in the western end of Chessenta. If these cities allied under Tchazzaran influence they could easily conquer Airspur, the westernmost city of Chessenta. This would enable them to control the entire northwest coast of Chessenta, as well as the northern and western shores of the Akanel(sp) lake.
The Karonok(sp) family rules Lucheq(sp),a large city (probably just behind Cimbar and Sorrenar)that is centrally located in Chessenta. Its sandwitched between Mordulken (the easternmost city in Chessenta) and Akanax (which is southeast of Sorrenar, and the only major city not located on the coast). When the time is right, Tiamat could easily arrange for Tchazzarrans to supplant the Karonak family and confederate with other cities.
All of this means that Tiamat has the potential in the near future to dominate three of the six largest cities in Chessenta. Under this scenario, Airspur would quickly fall without its traditional alliance with Sorrenar, leaving only two cities free of Tiamatan influence.
I have to go to class now, so I'll pick up where I left off later. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2004 : 01:34:14
Ah...that's interesting. Deities embodying national spirit and pride rather than race, or species, that would certainly reorder the FR Pantheon political map. And also, it would make for interesting potential conflict with other realms later...
I am intrigued, and wish to hear more...
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| lowtech |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 17:59:32
Sorry its taken me so long to get back, my internet access is largely dependent on campus computers, particularly for a site that seems to require advanced hardware to run quickly (for some computers it can take a full minute just to change screens!).
In most instances, the gods don't care about mortal borders. The Old Empires are an exception, because of the competition between the Faerunian and Mulhorandi Pantheons. If the Mulhorandi Empire (a theocracy)conquers Unther, then Unther is absorbed within the Mulhorandi pantheons sphere of influence. Uniting Chessenta, therefore, can be a means to an end:limiting Mulhorandi expansion. In the case of Tiamat, her aspect as Tchazzar is virtually an embodiment of Chessentan nationalism. She would therefore have an interest in creating a united Chessenta heavily influenced (if not ruled outright) by the Church of Tchazzar untill she is ready to dispense with the pretense. I'll get back with more later. |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 20:57:53
Hmmm, very interesting. Oh, and in response to Cyric, and I quote:
relgion is a powerful allie i dont know wich relgion is popular there but that is your best weapon and the old empire has it own inner foes that could be used to
I have only one thing to say; Unther, after Gilgeam's defeat by Tiamat. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 12:40:14
Ah, that explains it then.
I've printed that supplement out, but have never actually read through it...
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| The Cardinal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2004 : 06:14:30
Indeed I was correct. Tchazzar, the Red Dragon, turned God was consumed/had his essence absorbed by Tiamat. (I knew I read it somewhere). This can be found in the FRCS Deities Suplement DL from the WoTC page. This can be seen under the Tiamat heading. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 07:18:31
It is indeed. Most of the original authors of the Planescape setting together again...
I'm hoping I can convert my current FR planar cosmology to whatever type of structure they end up detailing...Provided I like their designs of course, and it's simply not a rehashing of the standard MotP cosmology like the WotC Planar Handbook is rumored to be.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 07:10:43
Ah, now that is interesting. And looks promising, if I may hazard a guess. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 11:34:35
That's one of the reasons why I still use the Wheel cosmology in my FR campaigns.
Although I'm hoping that this will provide some interesting alternatives to the standard planar cosmology presented in MotP 3e.
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| The Cardinal |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 09:55:13
Actually your right!! I had forgotten that that rule didn't come into play until after the Time of Troubles.... The Wizards of the Sword Coast should have kept that accursed Wheel cosmotology... It would make things so much easier... It's like seattle... Have to travel one seven bloody freeways to get to the one that will take you where one is going.... I tell you, it is not I but the world that is mad! RAVING MAD I TELL YOU!!! |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 09:47:42
Hmm, now that's interesting. Especially the "power of the people" coming into play before Ao made his new rule. I'm sure that something like that must have existed before -- otherwise what would the powers need with worshipers? Still, it seems odd. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 09:44:04
I apologise Cardinal, for missing your original request for anyone with information on the subject regarding - 'Tchazzar was a red Dragon who achieved godhood (became a godling) and was promptly consumed by Tiamat'.
Here's what we known -
quote:
A hero promoted to the level of a deity, Tchazzar united the states of Chessenta under his rule. Tchazzar ruled well and long, then, when his days were done, the warrior king rode north, never to be seen again. His followers believe Tchazzar to be still alive, and hold that he has attained demigod status for his work on this plane. Tchazzar's symbol is a red dragon against a black mountain.
In reality Tchazzar is a Red Dragon who tried an interesting experiment. Tchazzar believed that if he were to take on human form, unite and rule Chessenta for a time, and then disappear mysteriously, a cult would be created to worship him, giving him god-like powers. It did.
Tchazzar is still alive, living in his lair in the Akanapeaks. He is a Great Wyrm Red Dragon with the abilities of a Demipower. Priest of Tchazzar may only cast 5th level or lower spells. His worship is strong in Chessenta, concentrated in the cities of Cimbar and Soorenar, and unknown elsewhere.
As for being consumed by Tiamat...I have only one reference that makes mentioned of any actual dealing between the two deities. In one of the PSMC, it details that at one point in Tiamat's past, in the faraway land of Chessenta on the world of Toril, both Tiamat and Tchazzar had a physical 'disagreement' over something which may have had to do with a claim to an unknown land which degenerated into a territorial dispute. The write-up is not very specific, and I think there was a reason for that.
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| The Cardinal |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 09:16:02
So... as I've said so many times before
Down with the Gods!!!
.....
...
Except Holy Mother Lolth  |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 30 Dec 2003 : 09:03:49
Well, I’m afraid, Cardinal, that I have no information on that subject. I’m rather surprised that Sage hasn’t volunteered an opinion of his own, if only to say that he has no information on the subject. (A rare occurrence indeed, that Sage’s copious personal library would not contain a certain aspect of Realmslore, yet it has been known to happen.)
Besides all that, I’d have to say that, once again, I agree with you on your argument. Religion in history has never been overly concerned with borders. Some rare occasions have existed to the contrary, yet those instances were invariably due to clergymen who were more concerned with power temporal, rather than spiritual. (Might I offer up the name of Richelieu as Exhibit A?) The gods of Toril, on the other hand, would hardly be concerned at all with mortal lines drawn in the sand. At most, they would be concerned with the welfare of their own subjects, and at the least, with their own petty (if “divine”) squabbles, and seeing mortals as only tools to be used to that end. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 21 Dec 2003 : 21:10:00
You'll need to create a new sort of hero/living legend so to speak. The god's themselves really don't care abou one kingdom or another. Mortals are pawns to be moved in a game against the other deities. The man who would unite Chessenta (or anyother place where a kingdom could be forged, Unclaimed lands, western Heartlands, etc). Would best be advised to not bow to any god but 'serve' Chessenta for Chessenta's own sake. (Kinda like Queen Elizabeth I being married to England or some such, whether this is just historical fiction or not I really don't know but something like that is a good example). In other words, Only mortals would care about a kingdom being united or not. The Various gods only care about their church so of course Tchazzar was really uninterested in Chessenta's welfare. On a side note, I was of the thought that Tchazzar was a red Dragon who achieved godhood (became a godling) and was promptly consumed by Tiamat. Of course I have no Idea where I came up with this, but is there any information linking such an event? |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 21 Dec 2003 : 06:16:50
Yes, you're right. From DR 977 to 991 Tchazzar unified the city-states, and also annexed Threskel and the city of Delthuntle under his rule. He ruled a unified Chessenta until his disappearance in DR 1018. However, since Tchazzar was simply a partial manifestation of Tiamat, the unification of Chessenta was merely a means to an end, i.e. the destruction of Gilgeam. I had hoped to use a ruler who truly wanted Chessenta united for its own sake, and for the power that a unified Chessenta could wield.
I was toying with some of the Wizards in Cimbar creating something of a "Patriotism" spell that could be used to bring all of the expatriate mercenaries back into Chessenta to fight for the cause. |
| Cherrn |
Posted - 21 Dec 2003 : 02:16:22
What you want to do has already been done by Tchazzar hasn't it ? As far as I remember he was very succesful even conquering the cities north of the Wizards Reach in the process. Too bad it fell apart when he "dissappeared" :( |
| lowtech |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 23:03:39
I'll have more to say on this subject later (I'm writing term papers right now) but here's my quick take:
Things would begin with a simultanious movement to unify the western portions of Chessenta and aid the various resistance movements in Unther.
This would largely be a proxy war between the Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheons. On the Faerunian side, the major religious partisans would be the the churches of Bane, Tiamat/Tchazzar/that wierd Karanok cult, Hoar, Tempus, Mystra, and Selune. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 06:08:33
Indeed...
I believe the next few years of Realms 'game-time' will be quite interesting, at least for the south-eastern regions of Faerun  . Let's just all hope that WotC decides (at some point) to develop the region a little more...perhaps a regional sourcebook?...
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| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2003 : 23:08:05
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Yes, I see...
Although, given the eternal greed and pursuit of power that same beings have, I find it hard to believe that some places, or at least some village/town leaders would not see the benefits of joining along with Mulhorand instead, maybe in an attempt to expand their own power base. Or even to elimate neighbours that have been bothering them for sometime, using their alliance with Mulhorand as an excuse to wage a war of conquest of their own.
True, there will be elements in Chessentan society who will see the benefits of supporting Mulhorand, hoping for a piece of the pie. A common occurence in our modern day world as well.
The internal strife that has been between the city states doesn't help either, but all of the warring parties seem a little too much proud of their independence to throw in their lot with the Mulhorandi.
The rising power of Tiamat, the Karanok (sp?) family, two of the influential powers in the area which are rivals, yet will not abide a rule or occupation by the Mulhorandi... War can make for strange bedpartners... |
| Cyric |
Posted - 15 Dec 2003 : 16:36:54
relgion is a powerful allie i dont know wich relgion is popular there but that is your best weapon and the old empire has it own inner foes that could be used to |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2003 : 02:56:16
Yes, I see...
Although, given the eternal greed and pursuit of power that same beings have, I find it hard to believe that some places, or at least some village/town leaders would not see the benefits of joining along with Mulhorand instead, maybe in an attempt to expand their own power base. Or even to elimate neighbours that have been bothering them for sometime, using their alliance with Mulhorand as an excuse to wage a war of conquest of their own.
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| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 18:27:25
As I mentioned despite lacking the troops to field or being afraid of taking overt action, the smaller countries are more likley to support Chessenta with more mercs or money for mercs.
Also countries like Cormyr (though not likely given the currnet circumstances), Tethyr, Calimshan, maybe even the Zhentarim could offer support. Like they did in the case of the Tuigan horde.
Also after conquering Unther, Mulhorand might decide to pull on the reigns of war for a while to consolidate its power... though if they are to heady with victory, one never knows. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 12:39:21
Well, I did say it would be hard, but not impossible.... Besides I really wasn't factoring Thay into my thinking at the time. Thay's (by this I mean the Red Wizards) interest in preventing a Mulhorand expansion is purely motivated by their own (Red Wizards) self-interest...they simply do not wish to return to the 'good-old days' of Mulhorandi occupation.
Other smaller realms, and the local cities and towns/villages of the area cannot afford the luxury of openly devoting themselves to Chessenta as allies. Most would fear the Mulhorandi ability to wage war, and would also probably fear the likely possiblity of being swallowed up if the Chessentans ever lost such a conflict. Alternatively, there would probably be some places that would see Mulhorand as the 'winning side' and join along with them instead.
This is of course, a hypothetical situation. It is unlikely that such a set of circumstances will occur in the 'ancient empires' region - at least in the foreseeable future.
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| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 10:05:37
I would disagree with you there Sage. It is in the interest of local powers to put a stop to Mulhorand expansion. The red-wizards are already engaged in such activities.
Now as to how these local powers would cooperate is something else, but I could see nations in the area subsidising mercenary companies to bolster Chessenta's forces - for a hefty price in the futre from the Chessentan government (favorable trade negotiations being predominant)
It is in many nations interest to maintain a certain status quo - even if that means a relatively anarchic Chessenta and Unther. The status quo would allow for fast profit trade opportunities, whereas an occupation by Mulhaorand would lead to incertainties, as well as suddenly find a large partner at the table who can pull more weight in new trade agreements. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 00:54:04
Allies for Chessenta may be hard to obtain. Many of the powers and realms in the local area would be most likely be too afraid to make a move that could be considered hostile to a great and ancient power like Mulhorand.
Many 2e and 3e tomes (especially 3e) mentioned specifically that Mulhorand is again a rising power, so I doubt that they would broke any type of competion, considering themselves to be 'Empire-Builders'.
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