| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Light |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 09:02:22
So are there many psions of note in the Forgotten Realms? More particularly are there any that have been given stats or even just a level? The reason I ask this is because lately I've begun to wonder, if one was to play as a psionicist, what level is the equivalence of an "psion-Elminster". I mean, do we know of any psionicists who are over level 20 at all? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 00:00:16
2e psionics were broken, not nerfed, and they just got better with the DS supplements (especially Will and the Way). Their strength came from the fact that they were a "reluctant afterthought," because no one else had any defense against them, barring a couple of very specific spells, and sometimes not even then.
If a psionicist wanted into your mind and you were a warrior, priest, or rogue (the entire class groups), there wasn't a darn thing you could do to stop them, aside from hope they blew their rolls. If they're properly subtle about it, a glance across the tavern, you don't even know who's doing it. And unless they try something overt like domination, you don't have any way of knowing that they're there, either.
And even if your wizard wanders around with mind blank up all day (which they ought to, if they're sufficiently powerful), a psionicist can break it with a saving throw, or bring it down with suppress magic.
And that's not even going into what a psionicist can do to any wizard who isn't powerful enough to cast mind blank, which, remember, is an 8th level spell. The vast majority of wizards can't cast it.
Are psionicists limited? Yes, obviously. Both by PSP's and by selection of powers. But even a badly built psionicist can be a terror under the right circumstances, and in the hands of someone who knows how to use one, they're an unholy terror. That's why smart 2e DM's don't use things like illithid or aboleth very often. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 21:16:54
Maybe if you threw him in alone. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 20:04:25
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Raiguy got toasted by the dragon. I think Kimmuriel is one of the most powerful people in the realms. If he had any such ambitions, he could take over a good portion of the world.
Nah. He is very powerful against, say, a warrior. But against a high level wizard he would run into problems. Granted, he could take a lot of people by surprise since wizard would not prepare for a psionicist. But against a prepared wizard...
A simple spell can completely block psionic attacks, and a few other spells like a dimensional tether would negate his ability to just teleport away. Incorporeality would block physical attacks, but not magical ones.
As powerful as he is, he is not as devastating as many more powerful casters.
I hate to be contrary, but Kimmuriel took down the lead archmage Knellict in Vassa/Damara in Road to the Partriarch by blocking his ability to cast any spells, allowing Jarlaxle's boys to come up and take him out in his own fortress (where they cloned him and took off his fake head to present to the King as proof of how badarse they are).
I'd not sure what level Kimmuriel is (no stats ever released), but he took out a level 21+ wizard pretty easily. As in any characters' case, they could or could not do whatever based on the whim/needs of the writer rather than the game mechanics.
And RA Salvatore has kept Kimmuriel way up on the power list. So I must disagree that a powerful wizard would smoke him ;)
A level 21 Wizard is powerful, but not compared to the "He could take over a portion of the world" types.
As I already said, a wizard caught unprepared by a psionicist(Or an assasin for that matter) is going to be in dire straights. A prepared wizard is a completely different ball of wax altogether. A simple spell blocks entry to the mind or psionic attacks and another dimensional tether spell prevents transport of any kind. Being incorporeal renders you immune to physical attacks yes, but not magical ones.
If you threw Kimmuriel into a room with a wizard who knew he was going to face a psionicist on even footing.....etc etc |
| Seravin |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 17:26:13
Assuming "Epic" means above level 20, he is listed as level 21 in the Forgotten Realms wiki and I believe the same level in The Bloodstones Land sourcebook from Bob Salvatore http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Knellict
But you're correct, he's been retconned in 3rd edition to be level 15 Wizard/4 Assassin so who knows...? Every character's power and stats seem to be in constant flux to fit the needs of the story or edition. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 16:59:09
Where is it said that Knellict was Epic? |
| Seravin |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 14:23:35
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Raiguy got toasted by the dragon. I think Kimmuriel is one of the most powerful people in the realms. If he had any such ambitions, he could take over a good portion of the world.
Nah. He is very powerful against, say, a warrior. But against a high level wizard he would run into problems. Granted, he could take a lot of people by surprise since wizard would not prepare for a psionicist. But against a prepared wizard...
A simple spell can completely block psionic attacks, and a few other spells like a dimensional tether would negate his ability to just teleport away. Incorporeality would block physical attacks, but not magical ones.
As powerful as he is, he is not as devastating as many more powerful casters.
I hate to be contrary, but Kimmuriel took down the lead archmage Knellict in Vassa/Damara in Road to the Partriarch by blocking his ability to cast any spells, allowing Jarlaxle's boys to come up and take him out in his own fortress (where they cloned him and took off his fake head to present to the King as proof of how badarse they are).
I'd not sure what level Kimmuriel is (no stats ever released), but he took out a level 21+ wizard pretty easily. As in any characters' case, they could or could not do whatever based on the whim/needs of the writer rather than the game mechanics.
And RA Salvatore has kept Kimmuriel way up on the power list. So I must disagree that a powerful wizard would smoke him ;)
|
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 08:47:45
Kimmuriel is at the maximum a mid level person, maybe around Level 15-17
The most powerful people of the realms are waaaay beyond his league  |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 02:36:39
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Raiguy got toasted by the dragon. I think Kimmuriel is one of the most powerful people in the realms. If he had any such ambitions, he could take over a good portion of the world.
Nah. He is very powerful against, say, a warrior. But against a high level wizard he would run into problems. Granted, he could take a lot of people by surprise since wizard would not prepare for a psionicist. But against a prepared wizard...
A simple spell can completely block psionic attacks, and a few other spells like a dimensional tether would negate his ability to just teleport away. Incorporeality would block physical attacks, but not magical ones.
As powerful as he is, he is not as devastating as many more powerful casters. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 02:06:53
2E psionicists were terribly weak compared against the other classes, the entire 2E psionics system was really almost something of a reluctant afterthought and it was not served well by all being stuffed into a single slender sourcebook. "2.5E" psionicists fared much better, but were still weak compared against any decent spellcaster of similar level.
1E psionics were quite overpowered, IMO, a single PC with almost any random psionic talent could easily dominate gameplay; a single psionic monster (like an illithid) was a truly nasty and virtually unstoppable threat unless the party had psionics to counter it. A few psionic classes and races were printed in various Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and these were also overwhelmingly powerful.
3E and 3.5E (along with tons of OGL/d20 stuff) had the best overall approach, IMO. Provided the DM exercised some care in which materials would be permitted in his gameplay, otherwise the psions could easily outclass everyone else (again).
4E psionics seems interchangeable with all the other 4E powers and stuff, just a different name and different "text descriptor" doing much the same sorts of things as anybody else. Although I admire this standardization approach for (finally!) balancing psionics in the game, I also feel that it takes a lot of the uniqueness of psionics away. Players often play psions just because they want access to particular powers the "other forms of magic" do not readily offer, they rarely play psions to explore the complexities of inner self and mental evolution (just as they do not play priests to explore faith and religion). This is of course more the fault of the players than of the game, but still it exists. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 00:30:27
Raiguy got toasted by the dragon. I think Kimmuriel is one of the most powerful people in the realms. If he had any such ambitions, he could take over a good portion of the world. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 21:35:51
From the power selection perspective, you can do it at 9th level. One psychokinetic science, one telepathic devotion, and one metapsionic science. By 9th level you have three disciplines and enough sciences to make it happen. And Kimmuriel could have maintained both the kinetic control and contact on Artemis as "free actions" to use 3e parlance, so there wouldn't be a problem zapping him with the false sensory input when needed.
However, given the other things Kimmuriel does throughout the series (is he the one that gets roasted by the dragon? Or was that the other drow?), he's probably significantly higher than 9th level, and has probably used receptacle (and maybe empower) to store up a significant supply of PSP's. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 20:37:42
Oh I know that 2nd edition psionics could do all those things, it would just take a VERY high level psionicist. With a mountain of PSPs and very high stats to make sure they never failed his rolls. Although I think you are limited in the # of "schools"...it seems like Kimmuriel had access to all of them. And using the telekenetic barrier to absorb artemis's attack while simultaneously making artemis think he saw Drizzt die rather would um...I think not be possible but I'd have to read my book about using two major powers in one round; maybe possible with the split mind devotion or something?
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 20:17:28
Actually, 2e psionics could do all of those things you attributed to Kimmuriel there. There are several different teleportation powers, and how much they're affected by phaerzress was never detailed. So that's easy.
Suppress Magic is a metapsionic power detailed in The Will and the Way. It flat-out shuts down all magic in a 20 yard radius, though you have to pay PSP's for each spell it negates, so it would be possible for a bunch of wizards to drain you to nothing in a couple of rounds if they start mass casting.
The hardest one, actually, would be tricking Artemis. But there are several powers in the telepathic discipline that could do the trick, especially combined. Creative use of False Sensory Input would probably be the easiest way, but there are a couple of others.
So really, Salvatore was staying quite close to what is actually possible in the game using published psionics. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 16:35:42
The only psion that I have read about in the Realms extensively is Kimmuriel in the Drizzt series (there are others of course I just haven't read those books yet).
And from Kimmuriel, whose stats have never been published, it's easy to see why they are pretty rare. His powers are so varied that Salvatore uses him to do anything. Instant teleportation from the underdark to Vassa? Sure. Block an Archmage feared in Vassa/Damara from casting any spells? Sure. Make Artmeis think he's killed Drizzt? Sure. Kimmuriel is like a Deus Ex Machina for Salvatore, even more so than Cadderly or Jarlaxle's magic item arsenal. From this, it seems like keeping psionics rare is a good thing for the fiction.
Also what other said, Dark Sun in the 2nd edition was the Psionic World, not Forgotten Realms. Interesting that House Oblodra basicly fooled all of Menzoberranzen into thinking they were Priests of Lloth but were actually Psionics (unless I interpreted that wrong and they were all dual class?) |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 15:48:24
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
In the House of Serpents Trilogy there are some psionics and it left me with the impressions that psionics are rather common in the south
I assumed that was because a lot of the action is in the Vilhon Reach which is where Jhaamdath used to be and some lingering psionic artifacts/power/whatever infuses the place. I would think some of their udoxias survived the destruction of Jhaamdath and constant exposure to their effects might trigger psionic abilities. Some of the Yuan-Ti spell like abilities are also close to psionic abilities (charm person, etc), so I would think seeing psions amongst them, or those with Yuan Ti blood, would be common enough.
Either way I really liked that trilogy because it focused on the Yuan Ti and psionics which are both under represented in the fiction in my opinion. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 13:32:50
In the House of Serpents Trilogy there are some psionics and it left me with the impressions that psionics are rather common in the south |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 13:19:17
There aren't many famous human/demihuman psions/psionicists in the Realms because:-
-- the Invisible Art occurs among humans and demihumans mostly as minor wild talents; those are rare, and few of those people develop them strongly
-- it isn't generally known to be anything distinct from magic
-- mass fame as we know it doesn't exist in the Realms anyway.
Psionics, or the Invisible Art [which is the term I prefer for psionics in the Realms], has been in FR since 1e, it has just never been all that prominent in previous editions of the setting. Its apparent lack during 2e FR was mostly noted due to the fact that TSR didn't want two different worlds with a lot of psionics [the published DARK SUN setting was the main TSR setting for psionics], so psionics in the FR were put "on the backburner" so to speak.
One example, in the Ol' Grey Box, mentions that Illistyl Elventree has some degree of psionic power.
In 2e, psionics has a few notable practitioners, one of them House Obladra -- is cover in both FR fiction as well as the 2e Menzoberranzan boxed set.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 11:49:58
Most notable would be Vhostym, aka The Sojourner, who, even without his arcane powers, can still make Larloch wary. There's also Magadon, whose psionic ability must be great enough for him to control Sakkors's sentient mythallar. And there's the drow Kimmuriel Oblodra. |
|
|
