| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sommons1 |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 22:59:59
This is my first post.
I have recently been dragged kicking and screaming to the world of 3.5 from my beloved AD&D. I'm over it. Upon reading the rules concerning a Paladin it states the Paladin has Divine power yet is not required by rule to chose a specific deity but can serve good.
The question is - how does a Paladin gain divine powers but yet serves no deity. If the paladin serves good, whose definition of good does he/she serve? His/her own? Following this line of logic the paladin can then become their own God as he/she defines the good by which they live by and execute their paladin duties.
Also, how do you DM a player who is a paladin with no deity?
Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 14:40:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Were the deities mentioned in any of the novels? I can't recall, from those I've read so far. Oh, well, I've read only a few novels, anyway.
A few were invoked by name, and we get a hint of their activities in Keith Baker's core books. But nothing as outright with deities as what we've seen in the Realms fiction.
Do they have followers? Or is their existence independent from prayers? For that matter, how can they exist when almost no one knows them? Or are they like MtG's superpowered planeswalkers born from the randomness of chaos?
Charles largely encapsulates the system above.
I'll only further note that the separate pantheons do indeed have followers among most of the populace. The existence of these deities is suggested to be almost entirely independent of prayer -- which is underlined by the fact that both druids and clerics can derive their divine power from non-deity sources. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 10:10:32
quote:
Do they have followers? Or is their existence independent from prayers? For that matter, how can they exist when almost no one knows them? Or are they like MtG's superpowered planeswalkers born from the randomness of chaos?
Best to remember Eberron gods do not operate on the rules of D&D - they operate on their own rule. They're mysterious, non-anthropomorphized, and do not interact with anyone.
Basically, they work like this.
"The Devourer. He's worshiped by a lot of monsters. His doctrine is to kill things and be strong."
"What kind of interaction will I have with him?"
"The same as in our world. You pray to him, assume he hears you, and hope there's an afterlife. Only, in this world, you get spells from worshiping him."
The difference is, of course, you could be a LG or CE follower of the Devourer.
The only "real" gods in the setting are the Silver Flame (basically a massive construct of tens of thousands of souls fused together) and the Blood of Vol which worships an evil Lich Queen. Given she's not a god, presumably divine magic comes from faith not the gods. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 08:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Were the deities mentioned in any of the novels? I can't recall, from those I've read so far. Oh, well, I've read only a few novels, anyway.
A few were invoked by name, and we get a hint of their activities in Keith Baker's core books. But nothing as outright with deities as what we've seen in the Realms fiction.
Do they have followers? Or is their existence independent from prayers? For that matter, how can they exist when almost no one knows them? Or are they like MtG's superpowered planeswalkers born from the randomness of chaos? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 04:22:56
Quite odd how those bits of Vecna often end up being found in the Realms. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 03:20:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The gods of the Eberron setting are a lot like the gods of a few other settings I can think of, including Conan/Hyboria and Song of Fire & Ice. Its not a bad idea, having them 'distant' and 'aloof' - I ran my Greyhawk gods pretty much that way (and in GH, you can go either way with them - the cosmology was that loosely defined).
A similar mindset among the general populace established itself in the generations after the Cataclysm on Krynn, during the Age of Despair. Those born long after the event eventually began to question whether the gods ever actually existed... especially when they were confronted with the misery that was so prevalent in the world after the fall of Istar. "Man's Folly," some considered it, rather than as punishment from the gods.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 03:02:13
I read only one Eberron novel, and I can't even remember what it was about, and considering my usually excellent memory when it comes to things I read, I can only assume it didn't inspire me. I just remember it took place in that tall city (which I was interested in, which is why I read an Eberron novel in the first place).
The story was so generic it wouldn't have mattered where it was set, from what little I can recall. I certainly don't remember any references to gods. There was a Warforged - another reason I read it - and the 'character' (and I use that term very loosely) was slightly less entertaining then a brain-damaged golem.
I hope the setting plays better then it reads - I was greatly disappointed. So much for 'swashbuckling-style high adventure'.
The gods of the Eberron setting are a lot like the gods of a few other settings I can think of, including Conan/Hyboria and Song of Fire & Ice. Its not a bad idea, having them 'distant' and 'aloof' - I ran my Greyhawk gods pretty much that way (and in GH, you can go either way with them - the cosmology was that loosely defined).
In my own HB setting I am still torn. I didn't want the gods to be active characters, and yet, I keep using FR as a basis for how I want my own setting to be, which doesn't really gel well. FR without all the god stuff doesn't feel right, and I wanted that feel. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 02:07:11
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What I was driving at is that Eberron lacks the "certainty" that the Realms has.
I thought as much. But I just wanted to clarify, from the perspective of the game. And, somewhat guiltily, because I find Faiths of Eberron is such a cool book... with a lot of nifty ideas for expanding upon the concept of religion -- and can be easily adapted for most other worlds.
quote:
In FR, you know the deities exist, where they dwell, and in some cases how to fight them. Not so, in Eberron.
Indeed.
In fact, there are some on Eberron who would make even the Athar philosophy appear somewhat timid when it comes to the belief of whether gods truly exist. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 01:57:22
Sage's explanation is a much more complete/accurate one than mine. Agreed! 
What I was driving at is that Eberron lacks the "certainty" that the Realms has. In FR, you know the deities exist, where they dwell, and in some cases how to fight them. Not so, in Eberron.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 00:48:40
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Eberron's deities are considerably more distant than the deities of the Realms, so they may exist or not. The people don't know for sure if they're deriving power from a deity or from faith in a cause.
It's important to note that a great many worshippers in Eberron align themselves with churches, rather than with patron deities.
As well, Faiths of Eberron indicates that most understand that deities exist in some way, shape, or form -- thus, the Sovereign Host usually stands as the most revered/worshipped pantheon of deities. However, those same people also appreciate that deities aren't the only source of divine power in the world.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 00:23:10
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Were the deities mentioned in any of the novels? I can't recall, from those I've read so far. Oh, well, I've read only a few novels, anyway.
A few were invoked by name, and we get a hint of their activities in Keith Baker's core books. But nothing as outright with deities as what we've seen in the Realms fiction. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 23:43:16
Eberron's deities are considerably more distant than the deities of the Realms, so they may exist or not. The people don't know for sure if they're deriving power from a deity or from faith in a cause.
I don't know what I'd do about the atheist paladin--probably he would have no divine magic abilities, or if he did, they'd be granted by some god IN SPITE of his denial of the gods (an evil deity is much more likely to be able to use such a paladin--turn him against enemies, etc). This was actually a subplot in a game I played in once.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
So I suppose there's Paladins of the Triad (or WERE) and Seldarine clerics. I actually think that makes a certain amount of sense.
Oh, there still is a Triad, and there are still paladins of that Triad. It's kind of a thing in my books, actually.
Cheers
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| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 17:36:47
Food for thought....
What if existence in this crystal sphere is the result of going to another sphere's Hell...
...or as MT said of reincarnation religions, the result of coming back as 'something lesser.'
Paradoxical!!!!
Good Hunting!
Edit: Added exclamation. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:35:12
Were the deities mentioned in any of the novels? I can't recall, from those I've read so far. Oh, well, I've read only a few novels, anyway. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:28:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The 3e EBERRON setting allows for divine-powered characters who don't worship a deity. Instead, they draw divine focus from elements, or nature, as such.
There are no deities in Eberron.
There are deities. It's just that they aren't the only option for characters to derive their divine power from.
The 3e Faiths of Eberron tome actually provides a worthwhile conception for deities and faith in the setting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 14:55:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Every soul must have a patron deity? Sort of a symmetrical weight on the other side of the coin from kathenotheism?
No
If you don't, then its a crapshoot when you die.
You may have inadvertently attracted the attention of some deity or pantheon (as was the case for Khelben and the Seldarine), or you may be able to plead your case while on the Fugue Plane (which probably only gives you a limited amount of time).
You may have 'unfinished business', and become any number of different undead.
You could wind up in The Wall if you are a native Torillian (Realmspacian?). If not, you probably go to hell (which is one of the few things I never liked about FR - why does it have different death-rules?) In a monotheistic society you (usually) go to some sort of hell if you do not believe, so I would apply that across the board for all worlds that do not have their own specific sub-rules. In D&D, this amounts to you hanging out on the Fugue (or the setting-equivalent), until something notices you and whisks you away. Unclaimed souls are 'open season' for fiends.
The only other option is in the case of reincarnation religions, but thats a tricky situation. If you do not believe, then you would still follow the rules of that religion regardless, and come back as something 'lesser' as punishment (or penitence). I would hope this is more of a culture-based phenomena, and not a region-based one, otherwise a Faerunian adventuring in, say, Malatra, might get reincarnated by accident, rather then go to his 'final reward'. I would assume that would only happen IF the character didn't already have a patron deity. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 10:10:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The 3e EBERRON setting allows for divine-powered characters who don't worship a deity. Instead, they draw divine focus from elements, or nature, as such.
There are no deities in Eberron. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 18:56:06
Every soul must have a patron deity? Sort of a symmetrical weight on the other side of the coin from kathenotheism? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 15:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by sommons1
How would you handle the PC if he ultimately denied all gods? Would he lose his paladin-hood? Would his powers become less reliable? For instance detect evil might not be as dependable and the hands just don't seem to heal like they used to. Can there be an Atheist Paladin or an Agnostic Paladin?
Once again, the final decision is up to the individual DM. ANYTHING is possible in a fantasy/D&D setting, so theoretically a 'godless' Paladin could exist.
HOWEVER, as long-time DM, I would rule that either the Human Overmind (collective consciousness of a species, which I have theorized 'creates' gods as needed) itself is providing the power - in essence, acting on behalf of 'humanity itself', or a power beyond the normal spheric ones (an Overpower, or something else entirely, like 'The Force') is granting the spells and abilities.
For instance, the deity Ptah is not a Realms deity, even though most of the Pharaonic Pantheon is (was?) present in the Realms. But Ptah is a universal (multi-spheric) power worshiped by Spelljammers, and therefor is capable of providing power to someone Toril-bound, despite of his lack of an official presence there. Ergo, there could be some generic 'god of goodness' in the cosmos, without an official Realms presence, that is still capable of delivering the energy to the Paladin.
At the end of the day, the power has to come from somewhere. Even if it is 'internalized' by the paladin himself, then my theoretical Overmind concept would apply. In the RW I personally think you don't need to follow a god to be good, but unfortunately, in D&D, we have a layer of rules which comes into play. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 04:04:01
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Power of Faerūn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerūn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'.
So I suppose there's Paladins of the Triad (or WERE) and Seldarine clerics. I actually think that makes a certain amount of sense.
Ed touched on the subject of worshipping the Triad back in January 08:-
"Most people tend to worship the deities separately, but consider them (and their priests) as allies, and turn to such allies when in need. Some priests (of these deities) point to the common beliefs and tenets among the Triad as proof that these faiths are "right" or "more correct than others," but worship is always considered to be best done on a personal, specific basis; unless you are desperate and calling out to "whatever gods there be!" for aid, worship "counts" most when it's directed at a specific deity." |
| sommons1 |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 03:47:38
Thank you all for your helpful responses. I would agree that ultimately the paladin's power must come from a deity, not simply cosmic goodness even if the player refuses to align himself with a specific deity. The thought of multiple deities actually vying for the paladin's allegiance or service is one of interest which could even lead to plot lines within the adventure.
How would you handle the PC if he ultimately denied all gods? Would he lose his paladin-hood? Would his powers become less reliable? For instance detect evil might not be as dependable and the hands just don't seem to heal like they used to. Can there be an Atheist Paladin or an Agnostic Paladin? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 02:44:49
Pretty much what everyone else here says - in the Realms, people are supposed to have a patron... and pay-lip service to the others (it IS a pantheistic world, after all). Many characters (PC & NPC) worship more then one god, and can even have more then one patron, which usually means the deities involved have some sort of agreement (but not necessarily - in a fantasy setting, and the Realms especially, NOTHING is an absolute).
If a player insists on running a character that does not worship any particular deity, then he/she should be assigned a patron regardless, by the DM. In fact, if the character is very good at what he (or she) does, then more then one deity may vie for his/her worship (either way, in The Forgotten Realms, spells MUST be granted by a deity, so at least one god must be sending power to the Paladin).
In other settings, different rules apply. The way I see it, there are Overgods that are responsible for certain universal concepts (like Good & Evil). In those other settings, either these beings assign a subordinate (a deity) for spell-delivery, or they have somehow provided another method (which would be highly unusual, but in an infinite multiverse, once again, anything is possible).
Normally, anything above deity level - Primordials, Overgods, etc - do NOT grant spells, but as we know from inconsistencies with the FR setting, there must be work-arounds in-place when such beings desire it to be so.
So the simple answer is....... the DM has the final say. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 02:12:46
quote:
Power of Faerūn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerūn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'.
So I suppose there's Paladins of the Triad (or WERE) and Seldarine clerics. I actually think that makes a certain amount of sense. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 02:05:39
Many characters are known to favour two or three deities approximately equally.
Power of Faerūn clarifies that 'Most folk in Faerūn embrace (or drift into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.' Except for priests, the distinction between your most-worshipped god and your second-most-worshipped god is only quantitative, not qualitative, and not everyone sees their most-worshipped god as their 'patron'. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 02:03:06
I always have paladins have a patron deity in my games, though I've offered the option otherwise.
Basically, paladins tap into the Weave with their Faith to provide all of their normal power levels.
I used to also allow Paladins who were Spirit Paladins or patronized by angels of good. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 01:58:51
I believe Wooly has the right of it: regarding the Realms, every character has a patron deity, though that may or may not be the deity that grants you spells and divine powers. It's possible to serve two or more deities (ala priests of the Triad, or Eilistraee-worshipping Chosens of Mystra, for instance). Also, it's entirely possible to start manifesting powers and not know whence they come, which one might interpret as being "sworn to a cause."
The real fun for the player is guessing what deity is granting the spells--it might be the last one the character expects. Like a paladin that is unwittingly being led along by Cyric, for instance.
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 00:52:51
I would argue that the noble square-chinned Lawful Good deity grants divine powers to worthy supporters of his cause, even those who do not overtly recognize him. Of course, the gods are a petty lot and even the good ones are jealously competitive ... it might only be a matter of time before even the most charitable god decides he wants some seriously dedicated commitment. Perhaps the gods reward or bribe new converts, handing out things like a nice new paladin's warhorse. Perhaps they obstruct or punish those who refuse, if not through denying access to divine powers then through encouraging other difficulties.
Although individual paladins might be stubbornly independant, there must surely come a time when they realize the benefits of joining a group of similarly powerful individuals to champion a "greater cause". No individual paladin can have as much power to better the world than a group of paladins (and various priesty types) working together. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 00:33:42
The 3e EBERRON setting allows for divine-powered characters who don't worship a deity. Instead, they draw divine focus from elements, or nature, as such.
It's an aspect that probably can be adapted for the Realms, given that some of the landscape has, at one time or another, been on the receiving end of the divine-touch [though, I don't think this is a pre-requisite in most cases].
Ultimately, I allow the player to present his/her case for paladins with or without deities. If I feel that the situation can be carried through convincingly in my Realms, and it adds something positive to the overall experience at the table, then I don't have a problem with it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 00:26:45
For me, I'd not allow a paladin in the Realms who wasn't serving a deity. Everyone in the Realms has a patron deity, so that dodges the issue quite nicely. |
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