| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ozreth |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 04:04:06
The Realms, in general, seem to be right in the middle of the dark/light fantasy spectrum. While often light hearted, beautiful, and awe inspiring, it can often become gritty, heavy, and unsettling.
Is there room for the amount of grit you see in stores like a song of ice and fire? What about rape? The murder of children? incest? etc etc.
Would you want to run you realms this way? Would you want to play in these realms?
I tend to lean towards no, but will definitely though some heavier things in here and there. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 14:13:08
Which FR novels did you rate 5? I can only give as high as 3, and those are mostly Paul's. [Don't get me wrong, though. That's just in terms of grittiness, not the novels' quality.] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 08:14:17
Pyrrhic victory is a gritty concept by definition. But only in the Realms can we see an endless "Pyrrhic stalemate", and worse, see it portrayed as a decidedly non-gritty thing centered around noble goodness and heroic sacrifice.
On a scale of 1 to 10 (where 10 = maximum grit, grinding your broken teeth on a dry mouthful of chalky glassy volcanic sand) I would rate recent Realms fiction as somewhere between 2 and 3, sometimes gritting up all the way to 5. Not in terms of "showing courage or resolve", but in terms of "portraying the unpleasantries of life as it really is, without false distortions, stylizations, or idealizations" ... of course, definitions differ. |
| Ghostfinger |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 07:53:43
tl;dr
After reading Drizzt's comics, I think I like the Realm as it is open to any spectrum of grit and fantasy.
Weeping War is a good setting to go grimdark, I think ?
As a storyteller, you can tell a heroic last-stand or a gritty, hopeless battle.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 06:50:39
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
It helps make the grittiness of a particular story more poignant than if it were one gritty storyline following another gritty storyline in a grimdark world.
Not necessarily. Glen Cook has proven that. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 20:25:59
I believe that if you keep a story or setting of your stories excessively gritty, then the gritty/grimdark retardant begins to set in. A lighthearted setting with a few events that bring out the gritty side of life--such as instances where there is no purely "right" choice, just one bad choice and then a "less-bad" choice--works better in the long run. It helps make the grittiness of a particular story more poignant than if it were one gritty storyline following another gritty storyline in a grimdark world. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 04:53:23
What we (or I at least) mean by "the presence of the erotic" in a story is something that can take many forms, but it's generally speaking the presence or possibility of sex. Every Noir story I've ever seen or read features one or more character consciously or unconsciously exerting erotic influence on the main character (or another of the major characters--sometimes it's the villain). Whether this is successful or not depends on the story, but it's always present.
Whether you find the source of the erotic energy attractive or not is irrelevant--it's a question of whether the character exerts that influence in the story.
Also, in those old movies? There's a lot of smoking cigarettes and/or guns if you know what I mean.
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 01:08:23
Nope, I find elves unattractive, and drow even less so.
But give me a nice fiery tiefling wench any day, I like 'em spicy. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 23:13:30
So, no hot drow femme in leather with a whip for you, eh? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 02:15:26
I'm not particularly attracted to partners who would likely betray or kill me. Women can be sufficiently erotic without need to resort to noir-fatale. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 01:53:10
Not really, no. I don't necessarily equate physical good looks (in a slinky little number) with "erotic". Some may see it that way, but I've never felt it was necessarily erotic as such. Just means the guy's got eyes! |
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 01:53:46
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, yes, the MPC,'s little watchdog. Gotta love him!
@ erik and Therise- A sexy dame in a little sparkly dress and a hat and gloves doesn't necessarily mean "erotic". Usually, she turns out to be lying about her cheating ex, or is trying to frame the PI for something, or- well, you get the idea. I feel like Noir is best described as a piece where everyone's motives are questionable, and you never know what's REALLY going on. And the murderer is usually the LAST person you'd expect..... (Okay, so I am a fan of old black-and-white detective flicks. Sue me.....)
So you're arguing that the whole femme fatale trope isn't erotic?
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 00:23:35
Ah, yes, the MPC,'s little watchdog. Gotta love him!
@ erik and Therise- A sexy dame in a little sparkly dress and a hat and gloves doesn't necessarily mean "erotic". Usually, she turns out to be lying about her cheating ex, or is trying to frame the PI for something, or- well, you get the idea. I feel like Noir is best described as a piece where everyone's motives are questionable, and you never know what's REALLY going on. And the murderer is usually the LAST person you'd expect..... (Okay, so I am a fan of old black-and-white detective flicks. Sue me.....) |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 16:50:38
@Ayrik
Full Program Name: SARK-ES-1117821
Now that I've established my geek-superiority, thanks for the laugh!
Good Hunting! |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 15:18:29
I myself enjoyed and song of fire and ice books and am not squeamish about grittiness or gore. The realms has its share of darkness but nothing like what you find in these books and while it might work for them , it is not really what I look for in a forgotten realms novel. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 04:55:07
Somehow the mention of Dillingers always reminds me of this. Not really gritty, nor noir.
[Edit]
But whatever it is ... we need more of it in the Realms! |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 04:25:40
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Don't forget the extremely stylish hat and gloves, and a hidden Dillinger* in her matching clutch!
Hmmm...it's much more noir if she carries it in a slip rig attached to her lacy garter and stockings....
Good Hunting! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:33:57
Microbes, cannibalism, volcanoes, hard vacuum. Same result = nature finds a way, plot problems resolved. |
| Therise |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:20:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I utterly despise "nature will find a way" and "love conquers all" plotlines. If nature prevails it'll be in some disgustingly organic fashion which eliminates all the people and problems they create. Love, on the other hand, will not conquer a falling guillotine blade or firing squad or nuclear fallout. I'm ruthlessly pragmatic. Such is my little opinion.
"In the end, the microbes shall prevail"?
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 02:50:24
I utterly despise "nature will find a way" and "love conquers all" plotlines. If nature prevails it'll be in some disgustingly organic fashion which eliminates all the people and problems they create. Love, on the other hand, will not conquer a falling guillotine blade or firing squad or nuclear fallout. I'm ruthlessly pragmatic. Such is my little opinion. |
| Therise |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 02:50:09
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...And not to make Therise's head explode with the continuing Noir discussion, but I agree that the erotic is a fundamental part of a Noir story. How many sexy dames in how many bright dresses click across the linoleum in the outer office, just waiting to make our hero's life a living hell with their femme fatale ways?
Don't forget the extremely stylish hat and gloves, and a hidden Dillinger* in her matching clutch!
Everyone else is more than welcome to continue talking about what is, or isn't, Noir. I'm just bowing out ahead of time on that one. 
*and yes, probably someone will want to "correct" me... I know they're commonly called Derringer pistols, but there's a reason many people call them Dillingers.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 02:33:05
"Uncompromising realism"--ok. We can go with that. Showing realistic consequences for one's actions, avoiding plot threads where "love wins over all" or "eucatastrophe," having bad things happen to everyone. That sounds "gritty" to me . . . though I think there's a certain pessimism to stories we usually consider to be "gritty," which is not included in that definition. After all, you can write an "uncompromisingly realistic" story where people are happy and only good things happen, just because that's what happens. And we wouldn't consider that "gritty" in the generally understood definition.
And not to make Therise's head explode with the continuing Noir discussion, but I agree that the erotic is a fundamental part of a Noir story. How many sexy dames in how many bright dresses click across the linoleum in the outer office, just waiting to make our hero's life a living hell with their femme fatale ways?
Cheers |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 00:36:15
Sorry, but I feel that definition is just too broad and vague. It's really not all that helpful in deciding just what is gritty and what is not! Tough uncompromising realism? Webster should maybe update their definitions a bit. I'm a writer and I don't even get that one. Of course, it might also help if we could figure out what comprises realism in terms of a fantasy novel.... Just a thought.
And I just don't see much eroticism in Noir. Some of these terms really are sort of confusing to the issue. |
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 23:35:27
Oy vey, Noir. Let's not get into trying to define Noir. That'd be a freaking minefield for this forum. People have classically said that "noir" must have five elements: oneiric, strange, erotic, ambivalence, and cruelty. The problem is that the innovative qualities of noir can take one or more of those elements and make them dreamy, referential, or ephemeral. Like I need the headache of trying to explain "dream within a dream" oneiric themes that are sometimes possible in noir. No no, not this girl.
So, given that people are arguing with me over something simpler like "gritty", I refuse to drive down the Noir road, heh!
I will say that some Noir can have gritty elements, but not all.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 23:23:15
Personally, I tend to think of "gritty" in terms of john Wayne westerns or old post-WWII war films. Movies where the good guys went through Hell, and were tough as nails, but still clearly good. Sure, they might shoot people at (sometimes literally) the drop of a hat, but they still knew right from wrong, nad didn't cross certain lines. I think "gritty" in terms of how Therise is using it is closer to "Noir", than anything. Hardboiled, maybe, but more like dark and depressing than actually dirty. Sam Spade in Waterdeep.... Gritty to me would be Dirty Harry in Calimshan. Just my two cpppers. |
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 23:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...If the word "gritty," as you put it, "really DOES mean something very specific," then how about you give us a clear definition of what it means? I have yet to see you offer a definition, and point to evidence to back up your claims.
Charles Phipps gave us the definition I've been using, but here it is at Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gritty
Gritty: "uncompromising realism" (Phipps said "intense stark realism", if I recall correctly, which works the same way).
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 22:49:51
I appreciate that you look at it that way, Therise, but I don't quite agree. The word "gritty" is used to describe a lot of very different stories that may share a few general similarities (which I outlined in my post above). Realism is indeed a genre term, but it is not synonymous with "gritty," and "gritty" is not itself a genre. It's like saying "dark" or "gory" or "juvenile" are genres--those are characteristics of a story, not classifications.
(Also, the fact that publishers use terms like "hardboiled" and "gritty" to describe books of the Realism or Naturalism bent does not in any way contradict my post--if anything, it's supporting my claim.)
I am somewhat swayed by the concept that "hardboiled" and "gritty" are talking about the same thing, but I don't know if that's quite true either. When I think of a "hardboiled detective" story, it doesn't have the same emphasis on gore or moral corruption that I think of as part of a "gritty fantasy" story. Hardboiled is a term that is often associated with "Noir," and noir is pretty black-and-white in terms of its ultimate morality: you do bad things, you get punished.
I also don't think "gritty" is an objective measurement. It's an emotional reaction--either something seems gritty to you or it doesn't, based on what else you've read. Unlike "sword and sorcery," which a fantasy story either is or isn't.
But maybe I'm wrong. If the word "gritty," as you put it, "really DOES mean something very specific," then how about you give us a clear definition of what it means? I have yet to see you offer a definition, and point to evidence to back up your claims.
Cheers |
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 22:24:38
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Putting on my author hat for a moment:
For the record, "gritty" is a purposefully ill-defined/undefined marketing term that writers/publishers/reviewers use to hype fantasy novels as "realistic," "badass," and "cool/tough people read this book, and don't you want to be cool/tough?" It's specifically used to market fantasy novels to non-fantasy readers, as they won't understand terms like "sword and sorcery," which I think is the closest actual genre term for "gritty" (Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric, etc).
Novels that get this label tend to be gory, dark, and force tough decisions on the characters, who tend to be what we'd call "dark heroes" or "antiheroes" of dubious moral character and action.
I don't think the concept has enough clout to be used the same way as terms like "heroic fantasy" or "swords and sorcery" fantasy (which is what I'd call most novels considered "gritty"). It's more a question of an author's style than a genre definition.
The long and short of this is, I don't think it's worth fighting about. Gritty means something different to different people, because the term is created/used to appeal to a wide range of potential readers.
Cheers
Well, yes and no...
Gritty is the term that publishers/authors use when describing works that are Realist (meaning: realism vs. romanticism). Genres need labels, because we love to categorize things, but imagine trying to label something as realist fantasy or realist fiction. Doesn't make much sense, prima facie.
Still, Realism in fiction (and fantasy) have a long, long history. Realism was a rejection of the period of Romanticism that dominated art and culture for a long time throughout Europe and beyond. American fiction in particular was strongly influenced by anti-romanticism writers like Balzac and Flaubert, and naturalist writers like Zola. If you're going to say that gritty is a fairly new term, I'd agree. But if you're saying that the style hasn't developed into a genre, well, most literary historians would disagree.
Think of "hardboiled" early (and modern) American detective fiction, and that's Realist. It's also Naturalist, and the development of the genre can be traced back to writers like Zola. Hardboiled is gritty fiction, and publishers often call it gritty. But "hardboiled" has become too closely associated with detective novels for that term to be used with sword and sorcery themed novels. Gritty is a term that is used somewhat broadly, from talking about certain detective novels, to certain types of horror, or fantasy-world anti-hero thief-types that wander dark alleys in Lankhmar. But it definitely means something specific.
Consider: Elric of Melniboné would never be called "gritty". Dark, edgy, sometimes disturbing, yes. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, that's definitely gritty. Why? Elric is in no way a work of realist fiction, but Fafhrd is realist fantasy. Elric was influenced by grand but dark-fatalist Kalevala legends, and appeared alongside opera-style stories in the Science Fantasy publication; think Wagner-esque, the same influential style that brings us Star Wars. Fafhrd, Conan, they come from pulp novel fiction (originally alongside hardboiled detective novellas... for a reason, the themes appeal to those who loved American realist fiction... influenced by Zola).
So yes, gritty is a newer term; newer than "hardboiled" at least. But to suggest that it's ill-defined or applied willy-nilly to make something more attractive, absolutely not. It has clear roots in Realism and Naturalism, can be tied to shifting literature/art movements as early as pre-1800 Europe, and really DOES mean something very specific. If the term doesn't have enough "clout", that's because people have a tendency to... well, use terms inappropriately, or not understand exactly what they mean when pointing to certain genre elements. It's why "dark" is mistaken for "gritty" quite a lot.
And this isn't meant to be insulting, it's not meant to be snarky or uppity. I'm just trying to explain things.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 21:30:14
Putting on my author hat for a moment:
For the record, "gritty" is a purposefully ill-defined/undefined marketing term that writers/publishers/reviewers use to hype fantasy novels as "realistic," "badass," and "cool/tough people read this book, and don't you want to be cool/tough?" It's specifically used to market fantasy novels to non-fantasy readers, as they won't understand terms like "sword and sorcery," which I think is the closest actual genre term for "gritty" (Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric, etc).
Novels that get this label tend to be gory, dark, and force tough decisions on the characters, who tend to be what we'd call "dark heroes" or "antiheroes" of dubious moral character and action.
I don't think the concept has enough clout to be used the same way as terms like "heroic fantasy" or "swords and sorcery" fantasy (which is what I'd call most novels considered "gritty"). It's more a question of an author's style than a genre definition.
The long and short of this is, I don't think it's worth fighting about. Gritty means something different to different people, because the term is created/used to appeal to a wide range of potential readers.
Cheers |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 23:30:13
I think they both go poof.... Just my thoughts. As for grit.... I DO believe that MT has some good points. Reading the Neverwinter novels so far, Drizzy and, er, friends (Dahlia? REALLY??!!) seem much closer to "gritty" than before, save perhaps for Wulfgar's little PTD/depression/addition phase. Overall, I think that entire series has gon much "grittier" than it once was. Wars, deaths, and drastic change will do that to people, even in a fantasy world. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 19:16:22
Totally off subject but you made me wonder...
What do you think the result would be of a Disintegrate spell on an ooze that has 'swallowed' a fellow adventurer? Does the ooze go poof and disappear into shimmering dust and the adventurer sprawl out on the floor covered in goop or does the whole combined mess take damage from the spell?
Good Hunting!
Edit: Lack of proofread ability is why I never use the quick reply. Removed an extra 'would be' that I missed when I reworded the sentence. |
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