| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:23:27
collaborated towards a common goal? Despite the intense hatred between these two outsider races it would seem unlikely that this has never happened.... |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 13:08:11
The last Mythal had devils and demons working side by side of course that doesn't necessarily answer the quesiton asked. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 20:26:20
I believe (IIRC) that Demons and Devils have fought side-by-side (if not together) in both Hellgate Keep and the Fall of Myth Drannor.
Graz'zt has been both a demon and a devil (like Bel), thus proving that 'Demon' is a template that can be applied to an outsider (just as 'Fallen' can be, as in "Fallen Angel").
So, if you take an angel, have it Fall , and then get tainted by Chaos, you have Angel ---> Devil ---> Demon. According to 4e lore (last I heard), a Tanar'ri is just an Elemental that has had the Chaos template applied.
Ergo, I would assume both Angels (Divine Servants) and Elementals (Primordial Servants) can have both of those templates applied (and probably many others, as well). Of course, there should also be a Lawful and 'Unfallen' template, just for balance, but with 4e's smaller set of alignments they are not necessary (assuming the default of everything is Lawful Good.... I think...)
Once again, 4e has brought the cosmology more in-line with religion, in that 'Pure' = 'Good'; each template applied to an outsider would bring it further from that purity. For example, children in Judeo-Christian mythology are exempt from sin, until their 13th birthday (adulthood). The assumption is that everyone is born pure (without sin), and sin is acquired throughout your life. Being "worldly" (adding templates and/or PrCs in D&D parlance) is considered a bad thing, usually.
I can see the reasoning behind most of the planer changes - the down-sizing has helped add quite a bit of logic into the 'deeper workings' of the D&D meta-setting. We may have had to eat a little crow with the continuity glitches some of it caused, but in the end we wind up with a more stream-lined cosmos.
I am not a fan of the FR-specific changes in 4e, but can understand the ones to the meta-cosmology of D&D, and even get onboard with them. The rules are a separate issue, and IMHO, a non-issue (a good DM doesn't even need rules). Just thought I would state that before folks thought I was still taking sides... I hope we are past all of that now.  |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 18:34:02
Right, I knew the name sounded familiar. Thanks |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 18:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Isn't he the fallen solar who played a big part in the first Crown War?
According to this excerpt from Lost Empires of Faerūn, it was the Third and Fifth Crown Wars that he participated in. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 17:33:44
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Malkizid was a former archdevil who allied with Sarya Dlardrageth and the daemonfey in the Last Mythal Trilogy. Not exactly what you were looking for, but the best example I can think of.
Isn't he the fallen solar who played a big part in the first Crown War? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 17:21:44
Malkizid was a former archdevil who allied with Sarya Dlardrageth and the daemonfey in the Last Mythal Trilogy. Not exactly what you were looking for, but the best example I can think of. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 16:54:35
No, his father is still unknown. But 4e doesn't say anything about his mother, either. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:57:14
I thought Graz'zt's father is unknown. Did they "officially" change that, too? There's a theory that Set is his father; but the last time I checked, it was still a theory. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:49:15
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus.
While it sounds interesting, I fail to see what Graz'zt can gain from such servitude. He has his own domain already, not to mention a large number of servants.
He is actually the only prince with 3 layers IIRC, and it is far from enough for him. I'd be surprised if he was working for Asmodeus, but I can he could work WITH him. Still, even then I wouldn't consider them as allies.
That Pazuzu 4e lore is great, thanks. It makes sense after reading the Primeval pact in FCII, someone had to plant the seed of evil in a world where only law and chaos existed.
Thing is, there already was evil in that world. The mythos of the Pact Primeval simply only addressed the world from the perspective of Law and Chaos. If you read into it, Baator was already there for Asmodeus to plummit into, albeit in a different form.
As far as Pazuzu, he was one of the Obyriths who were themselves seeded into the Abyss by the baernaloths (per FC I). The 4e lore is something on its own of course, with no real link to the mythology prior.
Very broad strokes links to prior mythology, at least.
Pazuzu's status as an obyrith is less clear in 4e. It is strongly hinted that he is one, but if he is it's very well kept secret.
4e obryiths also predate the abyss, and damn near every thing else, having come from a universe that was ancient and dying when the current setting's universe was created. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:45:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus.
While it sounds interesting, I fail to see what Graz'zt can gain from such servitude. He has his own domain already, not to mention a large number of servants.
It's another 4e thing. 4e Graz'zt started out as a devil in service to Asmodeus; he lead an invasion into the Abyss and conquered three layers before "going native" as it were. There's debate as to whether or not he's cast off all loyalties or not; some think he has and is completely independent, while others think he's still Asmodeus' agent.
A related theory is that Graz'zt is Asmodeus' son by Pale Night. This is mainly a patch to rectify previous edition lore of Graz'zt being Pale Night's offspring with the retcon of him being a devil(I believe there is previous lore of Asmodeus and Pale Night having an affair, as well, which helps). Personally I subscribe to this theory if only because it adds a nice bit of rebellious prince dynamic into the equation. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:43:41
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus.
While it sounds interesting, I fail to see what Graz'zt can gain from such servitude. He has his own domain already, not to mention a large number of servants.
He is actually the only prince with 3 layers IIRC, and it is far from enough for him. I'd be surprised if he was working for Asmodeus, but I can he could work WITH him. Still, even then I wouldn't consider them as allies.
That Pazuzu 4e lore is great, thanks. It makes sense after reading the Primeval pact in FCII, someone had to plant the seed of evil in a world where only law and chaos existed.
Thing is, there already was evil in that world. The mythos of the Pact Primeval simply only addressed the world from the perspective of Law and Chaos. If you read into it, Baator was already there for Asmodeus to plummit into, albeit in a different form.
As far as Pazuzu, he was one of the Obyriths who were themselves seeded into the Abyss by the baernaloths (per FC I). The 4e lore is something on its own of course, with no real link to the mythology prior. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:31:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus.
While it sounds interesting, I fail to see what Graz'zt can gain from such servitude. He has his own domain already, not to mention a large number of servants.
He is actually the only prince with 3 layers IIRC, and it is far from enough for him. I'd be surprised if he was working for Asmodeus, but I can he could work WITH him. Still, even then I wouldn't consider them as allies.
That Pazuzu 4e lore is great, thanks. It makes sense after reading the Primeval pact in FCII, someone had to plant the seed of evil in a world where only law and chaos existed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:25:32
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Lord of the Sixth, Glasya is a Princess of the Nine Hells. She is noted as one of the most powerful and influential of the female devils and for being the daughter of Asmodeus.
So she isn't a demon. In that case how is "Asmodeus and his daughter" relevant to this scrolls topic?
My mistake. I tend to use demon and devil interchangeably. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus.
While it sounds interesting, I fail to see what Graz'zt can gain from such servitude. He has his own domain already, not to mention a large number of servants. |
| Imp |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 14:19:14
quote:
Lord of the Sixth, Glasya is a Princess of the Nine Hells. She is noted as one of the most powerful and influential of the female devils and for being the daughter of Asmodeus.
So she isn't a demon. In that case how is "Asmodeus and his daughter" relevant to this scrolls topic? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 14:09:26
To expand on my earlier post, 4e lore has it that Pazuzu was the one who originally tempted Asmodeus to evil when he was an angel. The two have had covert dealings ever since, though its a very well guarded secret.
There's also a running theory that Graz'zt is secretly working for Asmodeus. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:35:14
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
collaborated towards a common goal? Despite the intense hatred between these two outsider races it would seem unlikely that this has never happened....
Three incidents come to mind.
1) The archon invasion of the lower planes. Briefly the fiends collectively stopped the Blood War and turned in unison on the archons. It was messy. Since that time the upper planes have collectively had no direct role within the conflict. Details in Hellbound.
2)The Ghoresh Chasm incident. This was one of the other times when the Blood War actually stopped, albeit terribly briefly. Details in Hellbound.
3) Bel (current Lord of the 1st layer of Hell) prior to transcending to archdevil status was a pit fiend under the command of Dagos of the Dark 8. He seemed to renounce Baator and turned against his own kind, leading a number of demonic invasions into the plane before eventually at a critical juncture double crossing his new allies and launching a crushing defeat against the Tanar'ri which had been planned from the start. Details in Hellbound and a few other sources 2e and 3e.
Probably others escaping my mind at the moment.
Also on exceedingly rare instances demons and devils will briefly fight together under the leadership of a baernaloth, pulled around like puppets as far as anyone can tell. I wouldn't quite count this as working together though since it's forced. |
| Marc |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:07:41
Eons ago they worked together when the celestials invaded the lower planes |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 09:37:14
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
collaborated towards a common goal? Despite the intense hatred between these two outsider races it would seem unlikely that this has never happened....
Asmodeus and his daughter, I think.
Is his daughter a demon?
Lord of the Sixth, Glasya is a Princess of the Nine Hells. She is noted as one of the most powerful and influential of the female devils and for being the daughter of Asmodeus. |
| Imp |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 07:30:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
collaborated towards a common goal? Despite the intense hatred between these two outsider races it would seem unlikely that this has never happened....
Asmodeus and his daughter, I think.
Is his daughter a demon? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:44:52
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
collaborated towards a common goal? Despite the intense hatred between these two outsider races it would seem unlikely that this has never happened....
Asmodeus and his daughter, I think. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:44:05
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm presently in Brasilia, Brazil.
I love that place. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:32:51
I'm presently in Brasilia, Brazil. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:07:26
and where are you Sage?
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:41:45
There's at least one instance in the PLANESCAPE material that I'm vaguely recalling at the moment. But given that my books are well over several thousand kilometres away, I'll have to leave it to another planar-scribe to provide the details. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:37:51
Asmodeus and Pazuzu have worked together in the past. |
