| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:11:41
Suppose you're an archmage in the 1350s. You decide to go plane-hopping because you would like some tasty stew made at this awesome Inn that happens to be in Greyhawk. World-jumping not being an impediment at the time, you gate over and have a nice dinner.
You get distracted, though, and end up staying for more than 100 years (did I mention you also have potions of longevity and whatnot?). Still, you miss your home, and decide you'd better check on what's happened to your hidden keep while you've been away. So, dialing the gate (*cough*) you pop back over to the Realms.
It's a rough ride, however. Fizzling out in a colorful display, the portal deposits you where it should: your library, circa 1486 DR. Suddenly, you find that magic is... wrong or at least very different, and trusty old reliable spells no longer work.
How do you cope?
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Therise |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 18:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Keep in mind that despite prior canon, the Realms is no longer connected to Oerth or other worlds. This was a change made in 3E, when they chucked the old cosmology out the window. Despite having characters and deities who have traveled to or come from other worlds, the 3E approach (and I assume this continues into 4E; I'm not overly conversant with anything 4E Realms, particularly the cosmology) was that those worlds either didn't exist or were so far removed from the Realms that they might as well not exist.
Unfortunately (for my question, anyway), 4E brings back the tied-together cosmology. The Abyssal Plague couldn't really happen across multiple settings without it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 14:20:36
Keep in mind that despite prior canon, the Realms is no longer connected to Oerth or other worlds. This was a change made in 3E, when they chucked the old cosmology out the window. Despite having characters and deities who have traveled to or come from other worlds, the 3E approach (and I assume this continues into 4E; I'm not overly conversant with anything 4E Realms, particularly the cosmology) was that those worlds either didn't exist or were so far removed from the Realms that they might as well not exist. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 12:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How odd... in order to get rid of a deity that they felt was too powerful, they elevated her to the status of Multiversal Lynchpin. And then made her breakable.
Talk about the ultimate glass cannon... yeesh. And if she might be coming back... double yeesh.
Okay well, original question kicked in the heebie jeebies.
They had to, since the new spell mechanics had to be consistent with plane-travel. It would be weird if some plane magic's worked on the 9th level-prepare in advance method while others worked on the 4ed method.
Then, we already knew in cannon that the Weave extended to all planes of the Great Tree, including the lower planes and the Shadow and Astral planes. Maybe the Weave affecting Oerth (alternate material plane) was cannon all along. I'll need some greybeards on this! |
| Therise |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 01:50:58
How odd... in order to get rid of a deity that they felt was too powerful, they elevated her to the status of Multiversal Lynchpin. And then made her breakable.
Talk about the ultimate glass cannon... yeesh. And if she might be coming back... double yeesh.
Okay well, original question kicked in the heebie jeebies.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 01:01:34
I agree with your assessment, Therise: Mystra just should not be so greatly significant, at least not beyond the Realms, most especially since her station is demonstrably subject to repeated catastrophic failures; she's died before, over and over and over again (leaving craters and chaos each time) so why should we at all delude ourselves with the belief that she won't just die again?
(I nominate technology as superior to magic, since, although Gond has a penchant for surrounding himself with annoying gnomes, he also has a tendency to stay alive and gradually, inexorably, accumulate greater influence and power across the Realms. Forget Mystra, let her die and limit and retcon her magic rules as often as ye like, put Gond in charge of the universe. Ah, clockwork Gondliches must be mighty indeed!)
Yet it seems that Mystra's (retconned) universal scope and potency, defined along with the consequences of it spontaneously failing, are part of the setting changes wrought by 4E in all worlds ... at least judging by the endless (and often pointless) vitriol spilled by like-minded folks across various RPG forums.
If you can accept the Spellplague touched Oerth then your OP query is, using your particular examples, based on impossible conditions. |
| Therise |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 00:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Seemingly everywhere, according to this google search. I confess that my 4E lore is rather lacking beyond the basics, especially outside the core rules and the Realms, so (not having confirmed it personally) there's the possibility that my understanding about Spellplague affecting Greyhawk is mistaken ... although it seems otherwise.
Hmm... I dunno, I'd find it really hard to believe that Mystra's death and the spellplague somehow damaged "all magic" everywhere, especially separate crystal spheres with their own deities of magic. Or that Mystra's weave was present in all multiverses.
I mean, that would elevate Mystra to the level of a multiversal lynchpin. And she keeps dying... a pretty delicate lynchpin, if so.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 00:17:59
Seemingly everywhere, according to this google search. I confess that my 4E lore is rather lacking beyond the basics, especially outside the core rules and the Realms, so (not having confirmed it personally) there's the possibility that my understanding about Spellplague affecting Greyhawk is mistaken ... although it seems otherwise. |
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:57:57
Where does it say that Oerth was also subjected to spellplague?
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:21:07
Netheril provided rules for PC wizards (presumably imported from 1358DR) to relearn magic so they could function as arcanists after time-travelling to any point prior to Netheril's Fall (and Mystryl's death). Similar rules apply to Netherese arcanists who might've travelled forward in time or been preserved through magics such as Phezult's sleep of the ages. Although worded cleverly, it was evident that 1E rules applied to one time and 2E to another and wizards needed to retrain themselves after shifting between them. Priests were not so much affected in this instance, since the old Netherese pantheon (or at least their portfolios) still existed in more modern Realms periods.
Some of your specific questions are answered in Netheril (at least insofar as they apply to 1E/2E Fall of Netheril transition) and FRA (as it apply to 1E/2E Time of Troubles transition). In roughest terms: "Mystra's Denial" capped spell levels, many existing spells were mildly altered, magical items and constructs and existing wards/etc were adjusted to comply to new spell constraints (and, in the case of such things as mythallars and their quasimagical items, rendered inert) ... it's debatable whether or not the surviving arcanists were affected by insanity (and even those who are insane may have become so after many passing centuries, not from the transition event itself). The simplest approach after any edition change is to just accept the new setting and new rules "as is"; anything imported from older editions should be altered as needed to conform to the new rules, if no such magic now exists then the magic is now somehow nonfunctional.
I would suggest that a similar learning curve must apply each time the Weave gets reformatted and reinstalled, ie: each time Mystra (by whatever name) manages to get herself killed and replaced again, proximately corresponding with D&D rules editions.
You seem to have overlooked an important detail, Therise: Wizbro canon dates set the SpellPlague (3E to 4E transition) somewhen within that century-long absence given in your example. The SpellPlague is said to span the entire cosmos and affect all worlds and planes wherein (Mystra's) magic operates; aftermath on the world of Greyhawk (Oerth) is specifically described. What this means is that your travelling wizard should've been well aware of the changes wrought upon his magical workings prior to returning to Toril, even if he entirely refrains from magic use for most of a century until casting his gate spells. |
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:37:34
Let's say, for argument's sake, that:
a. you don't immediately go mad
b. you really do like your hidden keep and wouldn't want to leave.
c. magic is changed, so you probably don't have anything that could get you back to Greyhawk.
d. some friends might still be alive, but you're over 250 years old anyway - so family isn't really a concern.
e. neither you nor your keep have been directly affected by spellplague energy, you just have to deal with the new age/era.
f. for whatever reason, your hidden keep has never been broken into, it's as you left it.
I think the biggest questions I have would be:
- as an archmage, can you quickly learn this altered magic?
- do all of your old items stop working, or are they changed/deadly/untrustworthy?
- any magical wards, contingencies, would those still work in your keep?
- magical guardians, would they still operate appropriately?
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| Kilvan |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:24:33
I suppose you have 3 choices: Go mad (some did), flee this train-wreck (once you find another way of plane-travel) or re-learn everything. On a side note, I believe you would feel the Spellplague even from distant planes, even though you might not suffer the effects right away.
Being an archmage, I'd probably leave my home-plane for good. Anyway, all your loved ones (if any) must be dead for a few decades now (given you are non-elf). |
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