| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 17:52:46
Anybody know the origins of ancient dwarven magic? I was reading around and it seems like in their distant past, they used powerful magics to free themselves from their giant masters. Creations like Adamantite Golems apparently came from them. Ws this magic ll clerical in nature? Did it approach high elven magic in it's potency?
I wish they would write some novels during the time of giants , it's seems like a really interesting time period in the realms. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 01:34:57
I was thinking of Elementalism (in all its flavors) as well.
I've connected the 5 Creator races to the five elements (a pretty good fit), along with the five associated energy-types.
Race Element Energy
Sarrukh Fire Heat
Batrachi Water Cold
Aeerie Air Electricity
Fey Earth Acid
Human Alloy/Wood Sonic
And then there would be the lack of all elements...
Aberrations Void Entropy(?)
I'm thinking its a shame the Dwarves aren't a creator race - I'd use them for Earth, and shift Elves to Wood, and then use Metal for humans. The only problem with that is that there usually four base elements in magic, a 5th one combining properties of the other four (Wood or metal), and Void, which is simply a lack of any base elements. Six elements is just too many; we don't even have an associated energy type for it in D&D.
Of course, I think Dawrves and Giants were originally of the same race - Jotuns, perhaps - and they were in a heavily stratified caste-system, with different castes being physically very different from each other. I'm still working the kinks out of that theory.
If I threw positive (Radiant) & negative (Shadow) energies into the mix, that would give me one for both humans/Alloy and void (Entropy sounds like it would work with Shadow).
Like I said, I haven't worked it all out yet, but Dwarves should definitely be associated with some form of Geomancy. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 13:50:16
Geomancy is one of the primordial magic systems or 'Secret Arts' in my campaigns, along with other elemental or primordial arts like pyromancy, aeromancy and astromancy (divination). Psionics is an alternative magic from earlier multiverses. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 05:54:55
Markus - I was thinking about Apple being more analogous to the Shadow Weave. iWeave? A competing system - one with a lot of hype and image - which many people are convinced is easier and better to operate. The deities are hardcoded as the "superadmin" users, they are the authority with true system-level access and decision-making powers. A variety of psionic distros have been ported across different worlds, along with their necessary changes in local methodology, but psionic systems are not dependant upon the existence of a corporate patron and thus much resistant to the repeated catastrophic failures and power outages which affect the mainstream alternatives.
Mythals would seem akin to gaming consoles; packed full of performance hardware and particularly well-suited to their dedicated tasks, yet not very versatile nor efficient when adapted to other tasks. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 00:06:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Psionics has its problems (maybe thats Apple?), but because it is usually played-down in D&D we don't notice them as much. I don't see the Weave being proprietary - just the opposite, actually. Too many folks have created their own proprietary protocols which leads to incompatibility. Things like Mythals create localized exceptions to the rules. Psionics have no such conflicts - as far as we know, it works exactly the same across the planes. Magic can't make that claim; from world to world theire are differences. That's why I liken Psionics to Apple - one set of rules/hardware, which give greater stability.
Divine Magic must be more like the ancient days of computing, when people just had terminals connected to a mainframe. Very primitive, but effective, and fairly stable.
So I guess spells are apps in this analogy, and magic items peripherals.
I have to wonder if Magic and Psionics are competing formats. Considering the types of creatures that gravitate towards psionics (aberrations), one can theorize that psionics is some ancient, primordial way of manipulating energy and matter, and arcane magic is something fairly new in the cosmic scheme of things.
Interesting train of thought - Sarrukh would have assuredly been Arcanists, but the Batrachi seem more the type to use psionics. Perhaps Divine magic - the channeling of energy from elsewhere - can be first attributed to the Fey. That would leave two unknown types of power that manipulate reality (technology? runes?) I could definitely see humans focusing on tech as their 'source of power', but Runes don't fit the Aeriee. Some sort of Sonic (Bardic?) magic seems more appropriate to them.
Any thoughts?
There's an app for that.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 23:37:18
Psionics has its problems (maybe thats Apple?), but because it is usually played-down in D&D we don't notice them as much. I don't see the Weave being proprietary - just the opposite, actually. Too many folks have created their own proprietary protocols which leads to incompatibility. Things like Mythals create localized exceptions to the rules. Psionics have no such conflicts - as far as we know, it works exactly the same across the planes. Magic can't make that claim; from world to world theire are differences. That's why I liken Psionics to Apple - one set of rules/hardware, which give greater stability.
Divine Magic must be more like the ancient days of computing, when people just had terminals connected to a mainframe. Very primitive, but effective, and fairly stable.
So I guess spells are apps in this analogy, and magic items peripherals.
I have to wonder if Magic and Psionics are competing formats. Considering the types of creatures that gravitate towards psionics (aberrations), one can theorize that psionics is some ancient, primordial way of manipulating energy and matter, and arcane magic is something fairly new in the cosmic scheme of things.
Interesting train of thought - Sarrukh would have assuredly been Arcanists, but the Batrachi seem more the type to use psionics. Perhaps Divine magic - the channeling of energy from elsewhere - can be first attributed to the Fey. That would leave two unknown types of power that manipulate reality (technology? runes?) I could definitely see humans focusing on tech as their 'source of power', but Runes don't fit the Aeriee. Some sort of Sonic (Bardic?) magic seems more appropriate to them.
Any thoughts? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 20:29:32
Well then, the problem with the Weave is that it's proprietary and causes version conflicts. Keep buying into every Mystra update, along with all the new bugs and vulnerabilities? Whatever. I'd much rather prefer the opensource alternative, which I suppose must be psionics. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 17:46:50
Nice - Shandaril's a hacker... makes sense. 
So people who use Silver Fire (or maybe any Chosen) are the IT guys?
Admins = Chosen!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 17:13:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So who are 'The hackers'? Would that be deities? (at least, the mortal-born ones)
And can we get a magical variant of a computer virus? Magic-dead zones and Wild-Magic areas? Plaguelands and The Mournlands? The Spellplague itself would be the equivalent of the mythical Y2K bug (what the media said would happen, as opposed to what really happened).
What happened when Netheril fell? Did Karsus put to much strain on the system and crash the server?
If the Weave is an OS, then other forms of accessing magic would be other OS's. Spellfire weilders and other folks that toss magic without casting spells would be the hackers. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:42:38
So who are 'The hackers'? Would that be deities? (at least, the mortal-born ones)
And can we get a magical variant of a computer virus? Magic-dead zones and Wild-Magic areas? Plaguelands and The Mournlands? The Spellplague itself would be the equivalent of the mythical Y2K bug (what the media said would happen, as opposed to what really happened).
What happened when Netheril fell? Did Karsus put to much strain on the system and crash the server? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:21:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are we basically saying that the Weave is a fancy high-level magic compiler? I doubt computer analogies are well suited, and I'd hate to see bloated spellware.
I could see Ao being responsible for the "debugging" of the system when certain faults arise -- like deities taking their worshippers from granted. Time of Trouble-compiler repair algorithms.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:18:51
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it.
Machine/Assembly language programming is a long-lost art-form unfortunately. People still tend to snicker around me when I tell them that I spent years studying assembly language.
You're not alone in that regard. I still program in assembly and machine language from time to time. But then, I often find strange stuff like this provides me with a great and satisfying sense of fun. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:12:55
Ah yes, I remember studying Fortran and Algol, back in the prehistoric days of computing. I even had a TRS-80 in 1979. 
That thing wouldn't even qualify as a $5 pocket calculator these days.
Anyhoot, I believe whenever the Weave = GUI theory/hypothesis is put before Ed (in his thread and elsewhere), he usually alludes to it being a "very good comparison".
The Weave is precisely that - an artificial layer of 'arcane software' placed between mortals and the raw power of magic. And just like Windows (and DOS that it is built upon), each iteration 'dumbs down' what a user has access to, in order to insure better stability of the system. You loose quite a bit of power that way (pre-fall Netherease magic, anyone?), but we keep getting a simpler and easier to access interface. Just as 'computer gurus' of the bygone era were far and few between, so were the Archmages, but nowadays, nearly anyone can cast a cantrip or two (send a text?), if they put a little bit of effort into learning how.
And now I am wondering if in the 4e era, people are using I-Wands and gazing into their Crystal I-Balls. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 07:45:34
People get that glazed-eyes look whenever I try to explain that I use machine language and assembly on a daily basis, even in my hobbies. Microcoding is necessary when working with microprocessors and embedded systems. Consumer and industrial appliances might seem inglorious in terms of big computing, but they are far more numerous (and in a few cases, more capable) than PC platforms.
Are we basically saying that the Weave is a fancy high-level magic compiler? I doubt computer analogies are well suited, and I'd hate to see bloated spellware. |
| D-brane |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 03:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it.
Machine/Assembly language programming is a long-lost art-form unfortunately. People still tend to snicker around me when I tell them that I spent years studying assembly language.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 21:08:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I've found an interesting write-up about Rune Magic here. If it was more powerful than the Weave, as MT theorized, then the Netherese wouldn't have abandoned it, right?
It is a canonical fact that Magic was chaotic and extremely hard to control pre-Weave, and each iteration of Mystra made the Weave into an easy-to-use interface between the actual magical energies and mortals. One could theorize that Mystryl made things TOO easy, and allowed mortals access to power beyond their maturity to wield.
Be that as it may, we have established canon that magic - in it's raw, 'un-weaved' state - is incredibly potent, and that the actual energies involved pre-date the weave (and therefor Arcane magic as we know it).
I think the Runes are like stand-alone mini-weaves: each one harnesses (and controls to some degree) a small amount of that primal energy. They are physical representations of those same patterns (in Vancian Magic) that are impressed upon the psyche by a mage when he performs Weave-based (Arcane) magic.
They may even be likened to pre-cursors to things like Mantles and Mythals - a way of concentrating and focusing those raw energies into specific uses. The Weave itself wold just be the ultimate end of such a path of magical theory (Note that the Crystal Sphere around Realmspace is completely inscribed with magical runes, which could be the physical aspect of the weave itself... the ultimate pattern, if you will).
So Runes are like 'keys' that tap into those ancient, primal energies, and all magic that has been studied since is just more advanced versions of using those keys (which allow for more focused and specific displays, at the cost of some power).
Thats what I think; Runes are the building-blocks. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 16:19:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
Okay, you've got two paths to greatness... One takes you a lot of time and effort, and is very slow-going. The other gets you there more quickly and easily. Which do you choose? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 14:44:37
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it. |
| D-brane |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 12:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery.
Perhaps certain races ie., Giants and Dwarves have an innate grasp of the more complex rune magic giving them an advantage relative to other races....
Being earthen-born races - or races with stronger ties to the very primordial bedrock of Toril - they may simply find runic magic more "natural" and more in-line with how both of their races generally tend to view the world. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 09:40:27
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery.
Perhaps certain races ie., Giants and Dwarves have an innate grasp of the more complex rune magic giving them an advantage relative to other races.... |
| D-brane |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 09:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 07:09:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 06:32:59
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 06:08:17
Or perhaps in their arrogance they deemed Rune Magic, which was thought to have originated from giants or/and dwarves, ultimately inferior and thus didn't pursue their study of it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:56:58
The Netherese only considered magic derived from the Nether Scrolls to be worth persuing, and rune magic is not a prominent category within the Scrolls. Imagine the possibilities if an equivalent set of scrolls existed, say the Jotun Scrolls, which only describes the workings of runes.
Mystra's Weave seems (to me) to be a construct - admittedly a divine, organic, quasi-sentient, self-sustaining and self-repairing one with the capacity for growth - but still ultimately just a construct. Regardless of what the Weave really is, it's still evident that other sophisticated systems of magic operate (quite well) entirely without it. What's the point of involving gods (of any type, by any name) at all anyhow? Trading dependance upon Mystra for subjugation to Shar or for worship of a Primordial is a zero-gain equation. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:39:15
I've found an interesting write-up about Rune Magic here. If it was more powerful than the Weave, as MT theorized, then the Netherese wouldn't have abandoned it, right? |
| D-brane |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
The Weave is, apart from being a web of magical energy, also comprised of natural energy-flows and threads that suffuse Toril.
Perhaps the concept of runic magic is such that it represents a rather more primordial (in the sense of measuring temporal eras) system of harnessing those natural energy-flows in order to achieve Weave-like effects in daily life. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 04:45:51
To be technical, I understand that magical and spiritual runic symbols were used by chalcolithic proto-Celtic peoples spanning all corners of Europe (and much of Indo-Asia) ... some theories posit that they were carried into early pictographic writings of cultures reaching as far as modern China and Siberia, perhaps even to the Americas. Of course the particular symbols and what they represented would vary considerably between different groups and regions, no less than the gods they venerated and cultures they formed.
Insofar as Europe is concerned, the "Futhark" rune alphabets are the best documented and best known and closely associated with Germanic languages. Basically, the spread (and diversity) of these languages also brought their runes ... the runes, oral traditions, mythologies, and folklore of the Scandanavian Norse peoples (as well as the various Brythonic Celts) are well known and numerous simply because Christian missionaries documented these things carefully and their writings survived into modern times. They were only a small segment of the many populations and cultures who dwelled in Europe (itself just one continent, and a kinda smallish one at that) ... the vast majority of pagans (along with their runes and magic) were not so fortunate after being displaced by history. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 23:48:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
I like this version a lot. In Serpent Kingdoms remember they mentioned that the Ba'etith (sp?) collected much of the primitive magic that already existed in the world. I could see rune magic easily being one of those.
Runes also strike me as decidedly Nordic in flavor, so if I had to guess Id bet it originated in a northern clime. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 23:32:42
I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
As for dwarves not seeing the Nether Scrolls, that was an old (and difficult to find!) story on the Wizards site, dating back to around 2000. The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl. It's a very brief tale, and it offers a reason for why pre-3E dwarves could not use arcane magic. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 22:05:36
I think Arcane/standard magic comes from deities, but Rune_magic is even more ancient in nature and is related to the Primordials.
Just my own theory, mind you.
Rune_magic seems both more primitive and yet more powerful - it is able to manipulate the basic (Elemental) forces of the universe. Not as full of finesse as regular arcane magic, but much more fundamentally powerful. The runes literally call upon the underlying forces of everything.
I think Dwarves (as well as Giants) are somehow connected to the Primordials, and are therefor not 'allowed' (there is a story somewhere about Dwarves being denied access to the Nether Scrolls... they can't even see them) to practice the type of magic granted mortals. The Runes allow them to tap-into a much more ancient power - the "Music of the Spheres', or the "Language Primeval" - literally, the voice of God(s) that can bring ideas into physical being. Runes are just the written form of that Universal (deific) language.
Their appears to also be a counter-language - the dark Speech - which Riven is able to use. That would be the language of un-mmaking, and the written form would probably drive most creatures insane.
Once again, just some of my theories. |
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