| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 12:36:33
Many fantasy novels always enmesh a romantic subplot into the main plot, and FR is no exception. There's Return of the Archwizards, Erevis Cale, Starlight and Shadows, Counselors and Kings, Frostfell, Shield of Weeping Ghosts, The Haunted Lands, The Watercourse, War of the Spider Queen, and many more. In one way or another, such subplot did help add color to the stories---they helped made the characters as real as possible, drowning the characters into confusion and more problems or allowing them to enjoy happiness in their short existence.
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 01:40:31
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Actually, that all depends on the particular people.
But in most fantasy novels, it's either downplayed or tatotally absent. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 01:11:56
Actually, that all depends on the particular people. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:21:48
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
I completely agree with you Alysra. Realms stories are first and formost stories about people. Whenever you're dealing with stories about people, romance is a possibility.
So is SEX. But most often than not, it's scrapped. |
| Halidan |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 20:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
What many folks seem to forget is that as often as not, the romance IS part of that main plot, in that it is the interactions of major characters reacting to whatever outside threat, quest, or whatever it is they are dealing with.
I completely agree with you Alysra. Realms stories are first and formost stories about people. Whenever you're dealing with stories about people, romance is a possibility. It doesn't always happen, and even when it does, it doesn't always come out right, but it's always a possibility.
Take out that romantic possibility, and you're not dealing with real people, just cut out puppets. Even some of the old TSR Adventure Gamebooks (the ones where you turn from paragraph 28 to paragraph 132 to get to the end of the adventure) had romantic subplots in them. Spawn of Dragonspear (which as far as I know is the only Realms-based Adventure Gamebook) had multiple possibilities for a romantic subplot. And surprisingly, the romantic subplot could either end well or very badly.
The possibility for romance makes characters seem more 3-dimensional. The romance doesn't always have to happen, but in my opinion, the possibility for it needs to be there. As always YMMV. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 14:19:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It's a standard fiction rule- throw two people of the opposite sex into a stessful situation, add a dose of danger, and chemistry sparks fly!!
There's Romantic Fantasy for that, or Paranormal Romance.
I'll pass  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 13:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It's a standard fiction rule- throw two people of the opposite sex into a stessful situation, add a dose of danger, and chemistry sparks fly!!
There's Romantic Fantasy for that, or Paranormal Romance. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 01:01:47
And thank the gods for that.... On a more -on-topic note, I personally happen to like a romantic entanglement that twines well with the main focus of the story. What many folks seem to forget is that as often as not, the romance IS part of that main plot, in that it is the interactions of major characters reacting to whatever outside threat, quest, or whatever it is they are dealing with. For heaven's sake, Romancing the Stone and Jewel of the Nile were just that- romances on adveturing quests. It's a standard fiction rule- throw two people of the opposite sex into a stessful situation, add a dose of danger, and chemistry sparks fly!! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:44:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
And how long. Even if it's done right, if it's too long that it already de-emphasizes the adventure/epic battle/war which is supposed to be the novel's focus, then I'd rather not have it at all.
True enough - I concede the point. 
I can think of two VERY long series I lost interest in, despite how very well they were written, simply because I could no longer keep track of the unending, Machiavellian sub-plots, and the infinite cast of characters to support them.
Even The NeverEnding Story had an ending. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 04:47:09
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I guess the trick is to find a happy medium (especially if you're a ghost or spirit looking for love and companionship).
Most people prefer a tragic romance. More poignant, unforgettable, and all that crap. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 03:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
True Love breaks any barrier. Nothing, not even undeath, can stop it.
My mind went to very bad places with that remark, Dennis.
As to romantic subplots, I don't mind them, as long as they don't diminish other aspects of the story. At the same time, throwing it out there at random (i.e. "they get together at the end") is too diminishing, and at that point I tend to think you should just remove it altogether and devote the page space to other, more important aspects. I guess the trick is to find a happy medium (especially if you're a ghost or spirit looking for love and companionship). |
| Varl |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 22:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
I could get into more gritty, exploratory novels where the protagonists are more into discovery, exploration and defending themselves against whatever may be there than they are into sidebar romantic proclivities, even if married and adventuring together.
Discovering new discoveries in previously undiscovered areas of the Realms should give enough action, downtime activities, and party interactions to get to know the characters all, without really getting to know the characters, if you know what I mean... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 20:38:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
And how long. Even if it's done right, if it's too long that it already de-emphasizes the adventure/epic battle/war which is supposed to be the novel's focus, then I'd rather not have it at all. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 20:06:57
Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
I'm not a big fan of Romantic sub-plots, but I have never minded them... when DONE RIGHT.
In my life I have encountered many, MANY things that I wasn't fond of, but liked them when presented a certain way (spinach comes to mind).
It all comes down to how well something is written, weather or not you will like it, or at least tolerate it. The details do not matter nearly as much as how much you are enjoying what you are reading, ragardless.
I ABSOLUTELY DETEST highly-detailed combat scenes that go on for pages (in the RW, mortal combat between two opponents rarely lasts more then a few seconds), and yet RAS remains the ONLY FR author whom I own ALL of his novels, and thoroughly enjoy the Drizzt stories, DESPITE not liking Drizzt himself!
If that's not a testament to true talent, I don't know what is. If you got it, you can write about anything. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 18:14:39
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
Soooooo many jokes here, but all totally inappropriate.
The good jokes are always inappropriate  |
| Therise |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 16:50:01
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
Soooooo many jokes here, but all totally inappropriate.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:46:23
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
True Love breaks any barrier. Nothing, not even undeath, can stop it. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:39:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers
I also like weaving a romantic subplot into my novels. Most of my work have it. But considering my target audience, I guess it just makes sense. And I guess I am also lucky that I could write to as much as 800 pages.
FR is another story. True, romantic subplots sometimes work well into the story that the reader finds them as important as the main plot, as in the case of Starlight and Shadows.
However, I feel like the degree of focus that the author gives it is at times rather too much that it borders on unnecessary. I would mention the Tammith and Bareris romance in The Haunted Lands trilogy. First, let me be clear that I like Richard and his style and I loved that series. It's just that given the intricacies of the plots and the hugeness of the cast, I felt the said romance somehow bogged the story down. It was interesting and even moving. But if I were to choose between seeing it and giving, say, Szass Tam, the zulkirs, Aoth, and Jhesri more screen time, I'd rather have the latter.
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:57:54
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers
I also like weaving a romantic subplot into my novels. Most of my work have it. But considering my target audience, I guess it just makes sense. And I guess I am also lucky that I could write to as much as 800 pages.
FR is another story. True, romantic subplots sometimes work well into the story that the reader finds them as important as the main plot, as in the case of Starlight and Shadows.
However, I feel like the degree of focus that the author gives it is at times rather too much that it borders on unnecessary. I would mention the Tammith and Bareris romance in The Haunted Lands trilogy. First, let me be clear that I like Richard and his style and I loved that series. It's just that given the intricacies of the plots and the hugeness of the cast, I felt the said romance somehow bogged the story down. It was interesting and even moving. But if I were to choose between seeing it and giving, say, Szass Tam, the zulkirs, Aoth, and Jhesri more screen time, I'd rather have the latter. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:30:09
quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Bigger page counts is the answer. I'd like to see the FR authors let off the reins. Keep it canon, but let's take it in more interesting directions!
Yes. Unfortunately, it appears like WotC is unlikely to take that risk...Sales issues and all that. So while I wouldn't exactly like seeing a romantic subplot scrapped, if it means giving more focus on other more significant elements in a rather short novel, then I would still welcome it. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:51:18
I like multiple threads in Realms fiction, which doesn't have to mean hierarchical 'main plots' and 'subplots' -- starkly singular, linear Realms stories miss out on the Realms' texture and don't ring true to me. Given that, what Kajehase said. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:58:59
@ Lady Shadowflame: ROFLMFAO!!!! |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:57:06
The best novels tend to be about people, people quite often fall in love - sometimes at rather unopportune times, so by and large I'd say it's likely that a novel will become less if you remove any romance from it.
Which isn't to say that there has to be a romance element, but if the hero(ine) is just walking through a bunch of set-pieces without showing any kind of attachment to anything, at least I will quickly lose interest (which would explain why I can't stand most modern action and "horror" films). |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:38:22
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Halidan, you may be onto something! I LOVE the idea of a "Romance of the Realms" anthology! Let's see what goes on in some of the off moments of the lives of our heroes/heroines for a change! How did Danilo manage to snare Arilyn? How many lovers has Elminster REALLY had? That sort of thing. It would be fascinating, I'm sure.
Just as long as it didn't get bogged down in unfortunate issues, I'd agree. Seeing the moments when our heroes are being themselves in the quiet times could be quite enjoyable.
Though I think a lot of them could be summed up briefly...
DRIZZT: What are these strange hormone things? Resist! Resist!
CATTI-BRIE: I have got to get you out of that mental chastity belt thing you've got going on.
DRIZZT: ...Well, okay. If you give me a few years to brood on it first.
DANILO: *clowns about*
ARILYN: *sigh*
DANILO: Let me sing a song about you!
ARILYN: No.
DANILO: Pleeeeease?
ARILYN: Are you still here?
DANILO: Pretty please with a moonblade on top?
ARILYN: ...Sure thing, sugar.
ELMINSTER: Ye are peeking! *zaps author into ash*
BUSTY MAGE LADY: Oh, Elminster... *swoon*
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:29:56
Halidan, you may be onto something! I LOVE the idea of a "Romance of the Realms" anthology! Let's see what goes on in some of the off moments of the lives of our heroes/heroines for a change! How did Danilo manage to snare Arilyn? How many lovers has Elminster REALLY had? That sort of thing. It would be fascinating, I'm sure. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:27:24
This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:22:59
"Saving the Princess", the love triangle with Guinevere, Helen of Troy, etc, etc... good stories always revolve around some idiot forgetting there are plenty of fish in the sea.
In other words, the romantic sub-plot is a trope of the Fantasy genre, and is here to stay. |
| Halidan |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:05:18
Personally, I like the romantic sub-plots. In fact, I'll take it onew step further thanentreri3478 did and say that I'd like to see a set of Realms romance stories combined in a single book - just to see how romance is handled in various Realms kingdoms. We know a little bit about romance in Cormyr (purple scarves and such), but I'd really like to see a book of romance short stories that compares romance in the dales, Sembis, Chondath, the Sword Coast and even Mulmaster or Thay.
My Realms campaigns often feature romance - either between PC's or PC/NPC. If we had more information on romance customs in the Realms, I'd be able to add more detail and custom to these role-playing encounters. |
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 17:25:24
Bigger page counts is the answer. I'd like to see the FR authors let off the reins. Keep it canon, but let's take it in more interesting directions! |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 16:43:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Many fantasy novels always enmesh a romantic subplot into the main plot, and FR is no exception. There's Return of the Archwizards, Erevis Cale, Starlight and Shadows, Counselors and Kings, Frostfell, Shield of Weeping Ghosts, The Haunted Lands, The Watercourse, War of the Spider Queen, and many more. In one way or another, such subplot did help add color to the stories---they helped made the characters as real as possible, drowning the characters into confusion and more problems or allowing them to enjoy happiness in their short existence.
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
I certainly don't think FR fiction needs romantic subplots per se, but when they are there it usually adds a lot. Too much concentration on battle starts to turn me off, although I think we all expect the hero(es) and the villain(s) to go a few rounds before the final climactic scenes.
Honestly, though, FR is at its best when it's about complex human (or elfy, or dwarfy, etc...) interaction and drama. I think that's generally true of any fiction, whether it's fantasy or sci-fi, or even general fiction. Romances that make sense, and are really truly part of the story development, those are golden. Cunningham does this incredibly well, for instance, with Liriel and Fyodor, and also with Danilo and Arilyn. They really make sense and really enrich the overall story.
Deep friendships and families serve a similar dramatic function: Cale and Jak, Drizzt and his pals, or the bonds between the Seven Sisters.
Drama is often (usually, I'd say) more important than unfolding the secrets of some magical McGuffin or describing a battle.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 16:41:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Plenty of FR novels lack a romantic subplot. I don't think that the setting as a whole should dictate whether or not there's a romantic subplot -- the needs of each individual story should dictate that.
A 300-something-page novel is hardly enough to tell a grand adventure story. Adding a romantic sub-plot to it makes the story more lacking in the areas that matter most. Unless, of course, WotC sets the limit page count higher: 700-1,000+. |
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