| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 20 Aug 2011 : 15:17:12
In today's rules how would you categorize these two ancient opposing forces? Were the God Kings true gods when they inhibited Fearun or were they cut off from their divine power? Likewise what were the Imaskari artificers? Were they Human? I assume if they could battle the god kINGS(who were Demigods?)they must have wielded very powerful magic indeed. Were they on the level of the greatest Netherese or perhaps since they predated them even more accomplished? |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:51:57
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Again, I'm still waiting for any sort of definite source for the artificers using magic from other planes in their magic. Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. Nor does the fact that they were clearly planar travellers par excellance mean they were anything other than extraordinarily powerful wizards.
The following [from Richard Baker's The Shadow Stone] are the very words of Madryoch, the Ebon Flame, an Imaskari archwizard who claimed to be the first Imaskari:
quote:
"Well, the Imaskari were correct, Aeron. They wielded magic from beyond the circles of this world, magic of staggering power. And they did it without the hindrances, the limitations, of the Weave. The Imaskari spells wielded a different power, Aeron. A second theme of magic, one reserved for those with strength and will enough to command it. A completely different symbology to impose one's will upon a completely different source of power. Only the dimmest memory of this ancient way remains in the hoary texts and garbled fragments studied inside these walls. It's called shadow magic in these impoverished days."
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:56:33
Again, I'm still waiting for any sort of definite source for the artificers using magic from other planes in their magic. Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. Nor does the fact that they were clearly planar travellers par excellance mean they were anything other than extraordinarily powerful wizards. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:24:25
Do the Lord Artificers of Imaskar still serve the Mulhorandi pantheon as their punishment? Or have they been released from such servitude? |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 14:30:32
under current arcane compact rules.....yes.... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 13:28:04
The Imaskari archwizards tapped magic/energy/power from different planes of existence. Does it mean that the Imaskarcana would still work even without the Weave or the Shadow Weave? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 10:39:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
In today's rules how would you categorize these two ancient opposing forces? Were the God Kings true gods when they inhibited Fearun or were they cut off from their divine power? Likewise what were the Imaskari artificers? Were they Human? I assume if they could battle the god kINGS(who were Demigods?)they must have wielded very powerful magic indeed. Were they on the level of the greatest Netherese or perhaps since they predated them even more accomplished?
Note: on the below, much of this is gut feeling left over from years of reading stuff about Thay, Mulhorand, etc... I can probably find some lore to support it, but as its been a while, it could take me a while.
My PERCEPTION of the God Kings pre-time of troubles was that they were basically like the avatars of the gods during the ToT. They were confined to a single body of a willing "host". They were able to grant divine magic, but only within a certain range of themselves. This is somewhat similar to the beings in Stargate, except that its not some worm infesting the person. Also, somewhat like the "Supernatural" tv show, these God Kings are forced to inhabit the bodies of blood relations. I'd venture that the God King families are directly traceable back to the original hosts of the God Kings that came across on the Galley of the Gods. So, basically, a given God King of say Osiris lives in his host until said body dies, at which time he takes on a new host. The original host families were probably very "god specific", but I would venture that over time interbreeding between the "royal" families would have made them an amalgam group able to support any given Mulhorandi deity or Untheric Deity (note, these two groups would still be separate "royal" groups such that Mulhorandi deities could only host within the Mulhorandi royal families and vice versa). The royal families as such are Aasimars and of obvious "holier" nature than the average citizen (with glowing eyes, perfect skin, etc...).
I wrote this while I was at work, so I didn't have my books. It kind of bothered me, so when I got home, I wanted to relook up this lore. It also has somewhat awoken a hunger to go back through history again.
I misspoke above in saying that the gods inhabited their human hosts and transferred from host to host. The "incarnations" of the gods did this (read mortal form of the deity), however there are also the "manifestations" of the god which are the immortal forms (akin to avatars). The incarnations were all granted the abilities of "roughly" 20th level and above beings (they're listed using dual class rules from 2nd edition, so serious conversion would have to occur to 3rd edition, for instance the incarnations of Horus-Re are listed as ftr19 / priest 18 / mage 19..... which I'd probably put as something like wizard5/priest5/ftr1/mystictheurge10/spellsword4).
Also, the noble families may or may not have interbred (I prefer they did, just to prevent too severe a case of inbreeding), but its interesting to note that the family name drove which "Cult" (cult being a term of a priesthood devoted to a single deity within the Mulhorandi pantheon) family members would lean towards. Descendants of female incarnations are not given a house name, nor are descendants of Set Incarnations. I guess my view on the Interbreeding would be that the churches of Isis, Hathor, Nephthys, and Bast<aka Sharess> (all female Mulhorandi deities) would come from the daughters of the male deity households and that they would be the ones who went to other families. Thus why they didn't get their own family names, since they would take on the family name of the family they were either born into or married into, both of which would be of male deities.
House of Horus-Re: House of Helcaliant
House of Thoth: House of Tholaunt
House of Osiris: House of Osriant
House of Anhur: House of Ramathant
Note: the above does not list the House name of the line of Geb. From this its presumed that Geb's priests were more likely to mate with the common folk of Mulhorand to whom he was more popular. Whether he had any incarnations is up for debate as well. An initial thought I had was that maybe he was an alias of Grumbar, but sources state in 3rd edition that he was "considering" giving up his portfolios and returning to Nut, but that he had not done so.
Ah, and further research reveals something else of interest to me personally. Apparently, there were multiple "incarnations" of a deity at a given time, because the only time there wasn't an incarnation of Horus-Re on the throne (in recent millenia) was when Thay killed all the incarnations of Horus-Re during its forming years and an incarnation of Thoth had to sit on the throne. Now, that's going to be something fun to play with. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Aug 2011 : 10:30:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
In today's rules how would you categorize these two ancient opposing forces? Were the God Kings true gods when they inhibited Fearun or were they cut off from their divine power? Likewise what were the Imaskari artificers? Were they Human? I assume if they could battle the god kINGS(who were Demigods?)they must have wielded very powerful magic indeed. Were they on the level of the greatest Netherese or perhaps since they predated them even more accomplished?
Note: on the below, much of this is gut feeling left over from years of reading stuff about Thay, Mulhorand, etc... I can probably find some lore to support it, but as its been a while, it could take me a while.
My PERCEPTION of the God Kings pre-time of troubles was that they were basically like the avatars of the gods during the ToT. They were confined to a single body of a willing "host". They were able to grant divine magic, but only within a certain range of themselves. This is somewhat similar to the beings in Stargate, except that its not some worm infesting the person. Also, somewhat like the "Supernatural" tv show, these God Kings are forced to inhabit the bodies of blood relations. I'd venture that the God King families are directly traceable back to the original hosts of the God Kings that came across on the Galley of the Gods. So, basically, a given God King of say Osiris lives in his host until said body dies, at which time he takes on a new host. The original host families were probably very "god specific", but I would venture that over time interbreeding between the "royal" families would have made them an amalgam group able to support any given Mulhorandi deity or Untheric Deity (note, these two groups would still be separate "royal" groups such that Mulhorandi deities could only host within the Mulhorandi royal families and vice versa). The royal families as such are Aasimars and of obvious "holier" nature than the average citizen (with glowing eyes, perfect skin, etc...).
I wrote this while I was at work, so I didn't have my books. It kind of bothered me, so when I got home, I wanted to relook up this lore. It also has somewhat awoken a hunger to go back through history again.
I misspoke above in saying that the gods inhabited their human hosts and transferred from host to host. The "incarnations" of the gods did this (read mortal form of the deity), however there are also the "manifestations" of the god which are the immortal forms (akin to avatars). The incarnations were all granted the abilities of "roughly" 20th level and above beings (they're listed using dual class rules from 2nd edition, so serious conversion would have to occur to 3rd edition, for instance the incarnations of Horus-Re are listed as ftr19 / priest 18 / mage 19..... which I'd probably put as something like wizard5/priest5/ftr1/mystictheurge10/spellsword4).
Also, the noble families may or may not have interbred (I prefer they did, just to prevent too severe a case of inbreeding), but its interesting to note that the family name drove which "Cult" (cult being a term of a priesthood devoted to a single deity within the Mulhorandi pantheon) family members would lean towards. Descendants of female incarnations are not given a house name, nor are descendants of Set Incarnations. I guess my view on the Interbreeding would be that the churches of Isis, Hathor, Nephthys, and Bast<aka Sharess> (all female Mulhorandi deities) would come from the daughters of the male deity households and that they would be the ones who went to other families. Thus why they didn't get their own family names, since they would take on the family name of the family they were either born into or married into, both of which would be of male deities.
House of Horus-Re: House of Helcaliant
House of Thoth: House of Tholaunt
House of Osiris: House of Osriant
House of Anhur: House of Ramathant
Note: the above does not list the House name of the line of Geb. From this its presumed that Geb's priests were more likely to mate with the common folk of Mulhorand to whom he was more popular. Whether he had any incarnations is up for debate as well. An initial thought I had was that maybe he was an alias of Grumbar, but sources state in 3rd edition that he was "considering" giving up his portfolios and returning to Nut, but that he had not done so.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Aug 2011 : 05:45:13
Could Halaster be one of the makers of one or two of the Imaskarcana (using a different name or alias that time)? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2011 : 05:20:51
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
So was Halaster proven to be Imaskari? Also was their magic ever been defined as a different type of magic. Different in the way that Shadow magic is outside of the weave? Finally have the methods of harnessing magic from the planes been completely lost?
Essentially, it was suspected that Halaster was a survivor of the Imaskari. Numerous sources and comments made by game designers [like Steven Schend] pretty much unofficially confirmed it.
Here's the breakdown of references:-
"Ruins of Undermountain says, "Some say Halaster came from Netheril, others from the far east. Still others hold that he hailed from the Cradlelands, vanished human kingdoms now buried beneath Raurin and The Plains of Purple Dust."
Page 4 of Stardock, "Aquitiocrun is an ancient Raurinese word that translates as 'place where treasure is kept.' However, other words and phrases also can say the same; the word aqitiocrun specifically refers to the Raurinese pictographic symbol that is often marked on maps and treasure chamber doors within Raurin's ruins."
Page 29 of Stardock, "Therefore, the DM can determine if they have learned what they need to know; if much more time has gone on, the liches may be plumbing further secrets about Undermountain, Skullport, Raurin, and other secrets of Halaster's life."
From the mailing list in 2000 "The biggest hint (in print) re Halaster's origins can be found in the adventure "Stardock". This adventure clearly shows Halster's links with Raurin and hence Imaskar.
Eric Boyd had a Dragon article in the works about a year ago which amongst other things dealt with some magic items that Hilather created when he was working for the Shoon .... I doubt it will ever see the light of day now though ....
-- George Krashos"
From the mailing list in 2001: "Sigh.... This isn't a fact to be nailed down, folks. Ed & I intended that Halaster be whatever the GMs needed him to be for their games. THAT'S why his status in Stardock revealed so many mad images and forms that he could be anything to anyone.
Yes, he's old enough to have been from Netheril. He's actually old enough to have come from the Imaskari lands as well. Just because he has Netherese contemporaries doesn't prove anything about his origins. His secrets are so long lost (or at least well hidden) that's it's almost irrelevant to discuss what he was 1400 years ago....unless you want to do new things with him in regards to 3E changes.....but that's up to you, not any official canon.
Steven Schend
Whose obfuscations in the service of the DM seem to only cause confusion rather than relief and freedom."
Indeed he might ... *lol* When I usually make up stuff on the fly or present my own FR creations, I say so. With respect to Halaster however, there was a clear general trend established by Steven Schend (and I say trend) to make him Raurinese. Steven's "Stardock" adventure gave the most blatant clues but there is also Steven's post on "The Seven Imaskarna" (which was originally a piece of fluff on the old TSR FR webpage frontpiece. His write-up to the FR List ended with this little piece of prose:
'Elminster's surprisingly close-mouthed about the truth of the matter, so he either doesn't know the answer or simply enjoys dribbling enough lore to whet the appetite without fully sating it. He did smirk about Synnaros' theory, and said, "I have seen one of these giant stone sages of Imaskar, aye. Whether it be one of Seven or an Imaskarcana at all is for someone of more rarified interest than mine own. Of course, ye can only get answers out of it if ye know the tongue of the Imaskari, for it only recognizes that tongue. There be only one Faerunian living or dead who might teach it to ye, and he's hardly one to welcome ye for a lesson while he wanders about the Underhalls......"
So, IMHO there is a lot more pointing to Halaster being from Raurin/Imaskar than to him being from Netheril. As previously mentioned by me on the FR List, Eric Boyd had written up a series of magic items for a proposed Dragon article that never got published. This article explicitly states that Halaster was Hilather and Hilather was from Raurin. He also BTW crafted Kuraltaar "the Demonshield", now in the hoard of Iryklathgra "Sharpfangs".
But then again, if you want Halaster to be Netherese, go for it, there's nothing really stopping you.
-- George Krashos"
-- All in all, it's pretty much confirmed now, as of Dragons of Faerūn. Hilather [Halaster], in the write-up of Kuraltaar the Demonshield, is noted as being Raurinese. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 28 Aug 2011 : 04:17:22
So was Halaster proven to be Imaskari? Also was their magic ever been defined as a different type of magic. Different in the way that Shadow magic is outside of the weave? Finally have the methods of harnessing magic from the planes been completely lost? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Aug 2011 : 03:20:34
Curses? I wouldn't call that as one of the specialties or proclivities of the Imaskari archwizards. Binding, yes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 20:30:11
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I've always thought of the Imaskari as just very, very powerful wizards, but aside from their power level not any different from modern wizards. I've seen a couple of mentions in this scroll of planar energies, but I've not seen that in the sources. Can someone cite the source, so I can go look it up?
And since I still run 2e, I don't have any problem with the god-kings, I can use them the way they're presented in the Old Empires book.
No, Imaskari magic has always been noted as linked to nefarious powers, curses, etc... That's why I really like the idea of them as binders, warlocks, and the "fiendish" sha'ir variant, along with the dread necromancer and archivist. The hexblade also fits in well due to the ties to curses. However, at the same time, I also propose that there was also a subset of wizards who were more focused on elemental magics / combat magic / automaton magics, and it was possibly this subset that went on to form Raumathar. Now, were there standard wizards? Possibly... possibly not... when you throw in all the other variants I listed, its quite possible that the standard wizard didn't exist in Imaskar. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 19:55:27
I've always thought of the Imaskari as just very, very powerful wizards, but aside from their power level not any different from modern wizards. I've seen a couple of mentions in this scroll of planar energies, but I've not seen that in the sources. Can someone cite the source, so I can go look it up?
And since I still run 2e, I don't have any problem with the god-kings, I can use them the way they're presented in the Old Empires book. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 18:46:15
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
In today's rules how would you categorize these two ancient opposing forces? Were the God Kings true gods when they inhibited Fearun or were they cut off from their divine power? Likewise what were the Imaskari artificers? Were they Human? I assume if they could battle the god kINGS(who were Demigods?)they must have wielded very powerful magic indeed. Were they on the level of the greatest Netherese or perhaps since they predated them even more accomplished?
Note: on the below, much of this is gut feeling left over from years of reading stuff about Thay, Mulhorand, etc... I can probably find some lore to support it, but as its been a while, it could take me a while.
My PERCEPTION of the God Kings pre-time of troubles was that they were basically like the avatars of the gods during the ToT. They were confined to a single body of a willing "host". They were able to grant divine magic, but only within a certain range of themselves. This is somewhat similar to the beings in Stargate, except that its not some worm infesting the person. Also, somewhat like the "Supernatural" tv show, these God Kings are forced to inhabit the bodies of blood relations. I'd venture that the God King families are directly traceable back to the original hosts of the God Kings that came across on the Galley of the Gods. So, basically, a given God King of say Osiris lives in his host until said body dies, at which time he takes on a new host. The original host families were probably very "god specific", but I would venture that over time interbreeding between the "royal" families would have made them an amalgam group able to support any given Mulhorandi deity or Untheric Deity (note, these two groups would still be separate "royal" groups such that Mulhorandi deities could only host within the Mulhorandi royal families and vice versa). The royal families as such are Aasimars and of obvious "holier" nature than the average citizen (with glowing eyes, perfect skin, etc...).
Next question, what were the Imaskari? Well, the Imaskari were beings who drew their magic from the planes, were powerful technologists, they dealt with demons and devils, and who were definitely not given over to worship of the gods. When I think of the Imaskari, I like to think of them as a collective who used a lot of the arcane lore that we see in a lot of the alternative books that started coming in near the end of 3rd edition. For instance, I can see Imaskari as Binders using Pact Magic. I can see Imaskari as Warlocks. I can see Imaskari dread necromancers. For their "priests" I can see Imaskari Archivists. To a smaller degree, I can see Imaskari sorcerors, beguilers, hexblades, incarnates, shadowcasters, spellthiefs, truenamers, warmages, and Wu Jen. I can also see there being something akin to the Sha'ir, but it instead being a "fiendish" sha'ir (i.e. a being who gets his magic through the aid of a lower planar being that steals spells, but he must report to powerful lower planar overlords). |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 15:03:19
If you look in my signature you'll find a PDF I did on that ancient empire (Imaskar)...most of its fairly accurate...hope its useful to you..... |
| jordanz |
Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 02:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
You might also want to read this scroll for further information on the ancient sorcerous empire.
Thanks you sir! I'm truly impressed. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 11:32:55
You might also want to read this scroll for further information on the ancient sorcerous empire. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 08:38:01
Other Imaskari artificers who might still be alive today:
Mardava, the artificer who unleashed a mighty spell to defend the citadel of Jorhat against the Mulan slaves. The energies unleashed by the spell transformed her into an undead nightshade.
Lord Artificer Omanond, considered by many the greatest artificer in history for creating the Imaskarcana, the seven immensely powerful artifacts that speak volumes of the empire's history. |
| Stormlord |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 07:29:52
Greetings,
In Dragon #349 on pages 56-57, it lists Yaravindar Ipurnos as one of the last living survivors of the Imaskar Empire. |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 07:26:44
Before 4e there's Halaster, Deep Imaskar and the lich Ambuchar Devayam, tough he's from the survivor states era. And the first zulkir of Thay, who's now a demilich, I think was an apprentice or follower of the theurgist adept Thayd.
Also the Lady of Pain ;) and the kaorti |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 05:09:44
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Thanks Dennis. Well do any Imaskari mages exist in the current day realms? If not are the secrets to their magic (drawn from the outer planes) lost?
Well, there are the mages of High Imaskar. They are not even half as powerful as their late ancestors, but they aren't the type who can be trifled with, either. This information, albeit brief, might be of interest to you. Details of the exploits of Empress Ususi can be found in the novel Darkvision by Bruce Cordell, which I stopped reading when I reached page 40, but which I plan to resume reading in the near future, for the lore alone, if not for sheer entertainment.
There's also a possibility that the four thousand-year old Imaskari archwizard Madryoch still lives today. His fate in Richard Baker's The Shadow Stone was left unknown. He could be recuperating in the Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell. Or he could have possessed another body and is now active in Chessenta. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 04:36:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The God-Kings are like demigods, or whatever you label those beings who are a little less potent than the primordials. The Imaskari artifers are humans indeed, but extremely powerful.
It is not easy to compare the Netherese and the Imaskari in terms of magical superiority. For one, they didn't use the same sources of magic. The Nethere mostly utilized the Weave, while the Imaskari powered their spells using energies from all the planes they dared venture to.
Thanks Dennis. Well do any Imaskari mages exist in the current day realms? If not are the secrets to their magic (drawn from the outer planes) lost? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Aug 2011 : 15:30:13
The God-Kings are like demigods, or whatever you label those beings who are a little less potent than the primordials. The Imaskari artifers are humans indeed, but extremely powerful.
It is not easy to compare the Netherese and the Imaskari in terms of magical superiority. For one, they didn't use the same sources of magic. The Nethere mostly utilized the Weave, while the Imaskari powered their spells using energies from all the planes they dared venture to. |
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