| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Aug 2011 : 12:51:41
Is time travel restricted in the Realms? If yes, who or what restricts it? And why? It's just that I very rarely see it being utilized in FR fiction, unlike the Magic: The Gathering novels, which almost always make use of it, in both grand and subtle ways. In MtG, they call it clockworking, and nearly every time it's used, it makes the plot interesting.
Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).
Time traveling could have undone a lot of realms-shattering events...or maybe worsened them... Whichever is the case, I guess one way or another, it could have helped develop some elements in the plot of some FR novels. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 16:13:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is why she has to verify if the future she has divined will indeed exist. Perhaps, one way to do so is, as I suggested above, to create a conduit. If some indefinable forces reject her attempt to create a safe channel for her travel, then it may mean it is because the said magical channel, governed by the rules of reality in the present, cannot “touch” that which is unreal. Ergo, if the diviner manages to successfully create the conduit she needs, then it means the future she has divined will happen.
I see the conduit creating the same kind of problems I related to divining above. It's just too specific for the nature of divination.
I prefer the notion that if divination is used to compliment one's ability to travel through time, then it should simply provide subtle hints or impressions that the time traveller may or may not be able to fully comprehend before dipping into the stream of time. It's not absolutely necessary, but does help the traveller avoid some potential hazards if he or she was able to fully understand what was revealed as a result of the divination.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree. My theory, though may sound bizarre, is not entirely groundless [and yes, I know, you're not saying it is]. As I mentioned before, part of the concept I borrowed from MtG clockworking. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 03:03:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
However, if the traveller was already so inclined toward mastering the secrets of divination, then he or she would likely attempt to draw on that expertise in order to facilitate his or her travels through the time-continuum.
What is this time-continuum of which you speak? Didn't you get the memo? We in the realms refer to it as the Demi-Plane of Time.
The Demiplane of Time is the more appropriate term, yes, but I've also seen the phrasing of time continuum used in obscure D&D/PLANESCAPE sources as well. [Though, obviously, not to the extent of use for Demiplane of Time.] |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:51:37
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is why she has to verify if the future she has divined will indeed exist. Perhaps, one way to do so is, as I suggested above, to create a conduit. If some indefinable forces reject her attempt to create a safe channel for her travel, then it may mean it is because the said magical channel, governed by the rules of reality in the present, cannot “touch” that which is unreal. Ergo, if the diviner manages to successfully create the conduit she needs, then it means the future she has divined will happen.
I see the conduit creating the same kind of problems I related to divining above. It's just too specific for the nature of divination.
I prefer the notion that if divination is used to compliment one's ability to travel through time, then it should simply provide subtle hints or impressions that the time traveller may or may not be able to fully comprehend before dipping into the stream of time. It's not absolutely necessary, but does help the traveller avoid some potential hazards if he or she was able to fully understand what was revealed as a result of the divination. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 20:44:45
One thing that comes to mind with all this talk of time travel. We have the Chronomancer rules as a very good starting basis I feel. However, they were written for 2nd edition. If you were going to bring said rules into 3rd edition, how would you modify the class?
Here's some ideas that come to mind for me. I don't see there being a problem with them following the basic rules of a wizard. In fact, like in second edition, it would make sense that it be kind of a special specialization. So, I'm thinking that you make a prestige class for it, and provide a special extra spell list available to members of said class.
The requirements for said prestige class might be something like the following (which are made pretty horrendous to make sure noone's just going into this prestige class for a dip to just get time travelling and move on):
1) Ability to prepare and cast 4th lvl arcane spells from a spellbook
2) Have no abjuration, conjuration, or necromancy spells in his spellbook, nor have ever known how to cast spells from said schools
3) Must have the spell true strike and haste on his spell list, scribed in his spell book, and have used them at least once.
4) Must have discovered lore of time magic or the "demi-plane of time" and read up on the religious beliefs related to destiny (example: Having learned of the ancient geomancers geo-glyphs (sb'a, thmn, tsn) and having an understanding of the goddess Fate's or Mystra's role in controlling time)
Feats Required: Skill Focus (Knowledge <history>), Quicken Spell
Skills Required: Knowledge (history) 8, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 8, Knowledge (religion) 8, speak language (Kadari), speak language (Imaskar), speak language (Roushoum), speak language (draconic), speak language (Netherese), speak language (Loross), speak language (Aragrakh)
At first level in the class, the character must take as opposition schools abjuration, conjuration, and necromancy (in addition to any other schools he may have already taken as a specialist, but given the requirements he probably already had such).
Then, I'm thinking that instead of time slip being a spell, it could be a class ability usable a certain number of times per week, but you would only get it after like 3 levels into the class. At first, this class ability would be limited to self only, but later (say 5th lvl) it would allow the character to bring along companions. I'm thinking some of the class abilities would allow the character to quicken spells for free x times per day (increasing once every 2 levels or such). Also, possibly giving out the extend spell, craft contingent spell, and persistent spell feats could be nice (though given they can't cast abjuration makes these less useful.... might be worth reviewing why the second edition thought they needed to lose defensive magic. I can see conjuration and necrmancy since they depend on other-planar resources). The final class ability for the class could be timeless body (so the character stops aging).
You could then have 2 other prestige classes that depend on access to this prestige classes time slip ability. They would just advance slower in spellcasting and higher in BAB/combat skills (Temporal Champion) and rogue skills (Temporal Raider, with a lot of skills but a very slow sneak attack progression).
Keep in all the rules about doubling one's lifeline, etc... Of course, we'd have to take a look at a lot of the spells and redo them, but |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 19:19:46
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Originally posted by Dennis
However, if the traveller was already so inclined toward mastering the secrets of divination, then he or she would likely attempt to draw on that expertise in order to facilitate his or her travels through the time-continuum.
What is this time-continuum of which you speak? Didn't you get the memo? We in the realms refer to it as the Demi-Plane of Time. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 15:49:25
And I'm not seeing why it is necessary to have some sort of conduit or anything... To again run with my house analogy, looking in the window of the house does not grant you any form of access or connection to the house. And even seeing one thing in great detail doesn't mean you're seeing the whole picture, or that something won't change as soon as you look away. |
| Therise |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 15:40:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am not saying divination is time travel. When one sees a possible future by divining it, [maybe] it becomes possible for her to create a conduit that connects the present to the future and which she may use to “travel,” or send forth her spirit. Upon arriving in the future time frame as an incorporeal form, she would only need to inhabit a body that could function as her temporary host.
I'm not so confident that divination would be that accurate. Or, even more so, that it would provide information enough for the time traveller to confidently be able to make the jump into the time stream and follow the divined path. I just don't see it that way.
That is why she has to verify if the future she has divined will indeed exist. Perhaps, one way to do so is, as I suggested above, to create a conduit. If some indefinable forces reject her attempt to create a safe channel for her travel, then it may mean it is because the said magical channel, governed by the rules of reality in the present, cannot “touch” that which is unreal. Ergo, if the diviner manages to successfully create the conduit she needs, then it means the future she has divined will happen.
If someone could create such a real "conduit" and be sure that the verification is true, why bother with something cryptic like divination in the first place?
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 10:06:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am not saying divination is time travel. When one sees a possible future by divining it, [maybe] it becomes possible for her to create a conduit that connects the present to the future and which she may use to “travel,” or send forth her spirit. Upon arriving in the future time frame as an incorporeal form, she would only need to inhabit a body that could function as her temporary host.
I'm not so confident that divination would be that accurate. Or, even more so, that it would provide information enough for the time traveller to confidently be able to make the jump into the time stream and follow the divined path. I just don't see it that way.
That is why she has to verify if the future she has divined will indeed exist. Perhaps, one way to do so is, as I suggested above, to create a conduit. If some indefinable forces reject her attempt to create a safe channel for her travel, then it may mean it is because the said magical channel, governed by the rules of reality in the present, cannot “touch” that which is unreal. Ergo, if the diviner manages to successfully create the conduit she needs, then it means the future she has divined will happen.
I base this theory on how some clockworkers in MtG travel. They call it traveling through time "sideways." They remain in the present and at the same time extend parts of themselves to some possible futures or pasts. So they do not actually leave the present or the prime reality. They simply stretch their consciousness and link their present selves to their future and past selves. It is like living in all time frames at the same time, with only one of the multiple selves knowing what is going on; and as often the case, that self is the one anchored in the present. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 09:47:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am not saying divination is time travel. When one sees a possible future by divining it, [maybe] it becomes possible for her to create a conduit that connects the present to the future and which she may use to “travel,” or send forth her spirit. Upon arriving in the future time frame as an incorporeal form, she would only need to inhabit a body that could function as her temporary host.
I'm not so confident that divination would be that accurate. Or, even more so, that it would provide information enough for the time traveller to confidently be able to make the jump into the time stream and follow the divined path. I just don't see it that way.
I see this more as a quantum uncertainty aspect. In that, when the time traveller uses the power of divination to look for a specific time-path, he or she might inadvertently change the nature of the divination because his or her perspective ensures the ever-changing flow of time is specifically described at that particular point. Alternatively, I'm also inclined to believe that what a time traveller may see as a result of his or her divination, may be true for that particular point at that particular time, but in the temporal delay it takes to make the transition from divination to time-jump, the nature of the particular place and time of the divination may have changed -- meaning that the time-point the time traveller arrives at, no longer resembles, exactly, the point he or she divined earlier.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 09:13:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel.
I wouldn't say divination is intricately connected to the concept of time travel... but it would help. In other words, it's not a necessary component for the time traveller. However, if the traveller was already so inclined toward mastering the secrets of divination, then he or she would likely attempt to draw on that expertise in order to facilitate his or her travels through the time-continuum.
Divination, at its heart, is merely a skill of the mind. Time travel, on the other hand, requires a greater degree of both mental focus and mastery of skills that are almost at odds with how most people would tend to see the flow of time and space.
If you've seen the new series of Doctor Who, then you'll know what I'm talking about. The way in which the Doctor sees time and space, is very different to how his mortal and terrestrial companions can see and relate with time. It's not so much about being able to see possible futures, as a diviner, but rather about possessing the mental skills -- of which divination would only comprise a small part -- which allows you to comprehend what you're seeing as all possible futures and all possible time-lines pass, for an eternity, before your mind's eye. That's the way the Doctor sees time travel, and that's often have I've portrayed time travellers in most of my campaigns.
I do not think I have to watch Doctor Who to understand. Given your description, I say that's more or less what a clockworker [time-traveler in MtG] sees when he jumps from one time-line to another. It's like the Blind Eternities---all time frames and all possibilities coexist, and it's a challenging task for the traveler to determine which exact moment in time he can materialize.
I am not saying divination is time travel. When one sees a possible future by divining it, [maybe] it becomes possible for her to create a conduit that connects the present to the future and which she may use to “travel,” or send forth her spirit. Upon arriving in the future time frame as an incorporeal form, she would only need to inhabit a body that could function as her temporary host. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 17:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel.
I wouldn't say divination is intricately connected to the concept of time travel... but it would help.
I agree. As I've said before, divination is looking into the window of a house -- time travel would be actually entering the house.
And not only that, you don't see all the other external things going on. Looking into the window doesn't give one an understanding of context, of actually living and being in the house. It's a limited, restricted view, colored by one's beliefs. This is a "small window", so to speak. Just seeing a short snapshot of an event doesn't mean you'll understand it, the reality of what's truly going on.
With time travel, you are literally there. You are part of the system and the environment.
Understanding is often dependent on the "big picture" and being IN the moment. Even then, understanding from perception is limited. Witnesses to murders often invent a lot of detail that really didn't happen, because they had certain expectations. Imagine how much more limited the "small window" is, when you get a 1-minute flash of an event.
That's why divination -always- is expressed in the books, and the rules, in a kind of rhyme or verbally described subjective imagery. It's just not time travel, even in a "sending your spirit up to a future event".
Yoda said it best: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." |
| Therise |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 05:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel.
I wouldn't say divination is intricately connected to the concept of time travel... but it would help.
I agree. As I've said before, divination is looking into the window of a house -- time travel would be actually entering the house.
And not only that, you don't see all the other external things going on. Looking into the window doesn't give one an understanding of context, of actually living and being in the house. It's a limited, restricted view, colored by one's beliefs. This is a "small window", so to speak. Just seeing a short snapshot of an event doesn't mean you'll understand it, the reality of what's truly going on.
With time travel, you are literally there. You are part of the system and the environment.
Understanding is often dependent on the "big picture" and being IN the moment. Even then, understanding from perception is limited. Witnesses to murders often invent a lot of detail that really didn't happen, because they had certain expectations. Imagine how much more limited the "small window" is, when you get a 1-minute flash of an event.
That's why divination -always- is expressed in the books, and the rules, in a kind of rhyme or verbally described subjective imagery. It's just not time travel, even in a "sending your spirit up to a future event".
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 05:03:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel.
I wouldn't say divination is intricately connected to the concept of time travel... but it would help.
I agree. As I've said before, divination is looking into the window of a house -- time travel would be actually entering the house. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 01:03:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel.
I wouldn't say divination is intricately connected to the concept of time travel... but it would help. In other words, it's not a necessary component for the time traveller. However, if the traveller was already so inclined toward mastering the secrets of divination, then he or she would likely attempt to draw on that expertise in order to facilitate his or her travels through the time-continuum.
Divination, at its heart, is merely a skill of the mind. Time travel, on the other hand, requires a greater degree of both mental focus and mastery of skills that are almost at odds with how most people would tend to see the flow of time and space.
If you've seen the new series of Doctor Who, then you'll know what I'm talking about. The way in which the Doctor sees time and space, is very different to how his mortal and terrestrial companions can see and relate with time. It's not so much about being able to see possible futures, as a diviner, but rather about possessing the mental skills -- of which divination would only comprise a small part -- which allows you to comprehend what you're seeing as all possible futures and all possible time-lines pass, for an eternity, before your mind's eye. That's the way the Doctor sees time travel, and that's often have I've portrayed time travellers in most of my campaigns. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 23:44:15
I think Divination is intricately connected to time travel. Yaphyll, notwithstanding the very danger to her person, upon the compulsion of the Death Moon Orb, cast her most potent divination; and somehow managed to send half of her mind/spirit to the future. Perhaps all accomplished diviners know of this, but most simply lack the willpower or the daring, for when it goes awry, the same spell could render their minds irreparably insane, or snuff out their lives.
Perhaps when she glimpsed the Spellplague, the blue fire boosted her powers to a degree, and enabled her to split herself and send one into the future. But given how sure she sounded when she told Szass Tam about it, it seems like she prepared for it long ago, or at the very least, the probability of it happening.
A diviner sees possible futures, and mayhap one way of confirming whether a certain future is sure to happen is by enabling half of her mind to "exist" in that future, and anchor it to its half in the present, so she still continues to exist even if half of her mind in the future is shattered as current occurrences change and cancel that possible future. Few diviners, or none, would dare it as it considerably diminishes their powers. And those few are the magically compelled, the desperate, the [slightly] mad, or the highly curious. |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 15:14:49
Divination isn't time travel, it's an awareness of probabilities. And that awareness is itself colored by imagery rather than "real future reality".
Look at Yaphyll's vision, for example:
quote:
"The white queen is troubled but can't say why. The black queen hates the white and gives the assassin a black coat. The assassin steals upon the white queen. She can't see him gliding through the shadows. The sword screams. The white queen falls. Her city falls. Stones fall in the cavern to crush the soothsayer. The tree burns and thrashes in agony. Branches break. Branches twist and grow together..."
She's seeing the murder of Mystra, but it's filled with imagery rather than reality. Compare this with the Savras-given vision to Aliisza (through Kashada), where she sees the same thing (Mystra's murder), but the details in the imagery suggest slightly different things. At the very least, the visions are colored by the diviner's perspective.
Divination in the Realms doesn't involve seeing "real" future events. It's magical imagery reflecting probabilities (the most likely outcomes), not something that actually puts you into a real future.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 15:26:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Is time travel restricted in the Realms? If yes, who or what restricts it? And why? It's just that I very rarely see it being utilized in FR fiction, unlike the Magic: The Gathering novels, which almost always make use of it, in both grand and subtle ways. In MtG, they call it clockworking, and nearly every time it's used, it makes the plot interesting.
Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).
Time traveling could have undone a lot of realms-shattering events...or maybe worsened them... Whichever is the case, I guess one way or another, it could have helped develop some elements in the plot of some FR novels.
There are the rules for chronomancy that came out in 2nd edition, which were very interesting. Its ironic that this topic just came up, because I was just looking back through those old rules. For some reason, I just felt like writing up the early history of the red wizards. Where I was going to focus some of it was Velsharoon's early life in Halruaa and the formation of the red wizards (not the Thayan ones, the original ones). I was going to have it that they were a group of mages who (like the future Thayan mages) were studying magics that other people felt they shouldn't be. In Velsharoon's case, I developed him as a multi-class non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/ultimate magus/binder/anima mage/archmage/loremaster (yes, I know some folks don't like the idea of all that multi-classing, but it doesn't break the rules). However, he learned the basics of "dread necromancy" through the aid of a fellow "red wizard" who brought him back in time to Narfell. His fellows in Halruaa didn't realize his "tinkering" with dread necromancy because he was still casting spells. However, whenever he went back in time to Imaskar, he learned of binding, and that's whenever people started catching on that he was messing with magics that "just shouldn't be allowed".
The ideas I had for this early group of "red wizards"
a chronomancer (male, kind of a "quirky" person... maybe insane)
a diviner wizard/archivist/mystic theurge who worships Savras (female, archeology/historian type, but she wants to prove through her "studies" of divine magic that its just another form of arcane magic. Special relationship with the Chronomancer).
an illusionist wizard/priestess of Leira (female, is infuriated with the Halruaan elders for not giving Leira her proper respect. Has discovered the shadow weave, but refuses to serve Shar. Actually have her believing that Leira controls the shadow weave and that Shar is trying to seize it.)
Another member will be Ythazz Buvaarr (sp?), but he'll come later after the red wizards are formed.
Beyond that, I'm thinking a conjurer who picked up some lore in Narfell. I'm thinking to round out the group there should be 5 or 6 others (maybe another necromancer/priest of myrkul/true necromancer... maybe a blood mage.... maybe an alienist wizard).
None of these "red wizards" would go on to become "red wizards of Thay" and would either disappear or be killed during the fallout after Ythazz Buvaarr tries to establish the "rule by Zulkirs", but I thought it would make for an interesting story at least. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:10:55
Though it sounds plausible, I don’t think innate talent to travel through time was the cause of Cera’s feat. It could be one of the many mysteries of Amaunator or Mystra. It's also possible that upon the destruction of the Weave, the restrictions that Mystra placed on time travel were warped, so that entities, divine or otherwise, are now able to travel through time, provided that they know how to work around the warp, or simply "get lucky" enough to do so. In short, sometimes it may work, other times it may not. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:29:07
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical explains that virtually any native of the Realms could possess a magical Innate Talent - essentially a free ability to cast some existing spell effect by pure act of will, without any requirements at all beyond a bunch of really lucky dice rolling. It is also explained that innate talents are often viewed by their possessors as gifts from their gods or special magical blessings or whatnot, and they are just as often manifested only when the possessor discovers and triggers some unique "spellcasting" conditions or rituals (such as, say, praying and communion?) to invoke their operation. The chance of having innate talent is entirely random, as is the actual talent/spell itself ... although such spells as "time stop (twice per year)" are listed, and *any* existing spell (including Mystra's 9th/10th level time travel) is a possible boon, at least in theory.
So one could always conveniently state that Cera Eurthos possesses an innate talent which allows her to time travel, and have no further need to elaborate.
Although in this particular instance I'm inclined to believe that some divine fiat and handwavium (originating from Amaunator, or indirectly through Mystra, or interfering Shar, or even meddling Richard Lee Byers) allowed the time travel event to occur with the simple interest of progressing Cera's necessary participation through the story. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:19:48
I was afraid you'd say that.
Though it's possible there's something more to it... It may sound like stretching it too far, but as part of her contingencies, Mystra might have given the Sun God a temporary reign over Time upon her absence. Or it could have been Ao himself who's given it to him. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:16:07
An example of inconsistencies in the Realmslore, perhaps. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:47:43
Hmm. So how was Cera able to time travel? She merely invoked the powers of her god... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does Amaunator have “freer” access to time travel than any other gods, except Mystra? Was the successful time traveling of Cera [a priestess of Amaunator] due to her god’s supremacy over time? Or did it become possible only because Mystra wasn’t around to “regulate” time traveling?
Amaunator never possessed the Time portfolio.
He merely thought, for a period, that he was the 'deity of Time' thanks largely to an mispunctuation [of commas and periods] in a contract made between himself and another deity. The entry itself stated:- "...Amaunator shall be responsible for all time. any misrepresentation of his or his followers, If so deemed the fault of Amaunator..."
This led to Amaunator assuming himself to be in charge of "all time." Though, he never actually made any official move to claim such a position as he was unwilling to act against Mystryl who was, at that time, the unofficial keeper of the Time portfolio. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 01:58:58
Does Amaunator have “freer” access to time travel than any other gods, except Mystra? Was the successful time traveling of Cera [a priestess of Amaunator] due to her god’s supremacy over time? Or did it become possible only because Mystra wasn’t around to “regulate” time traveling? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 08:58:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heck, she might have even known that she was fated to die, just not how or when, and thus rolled with it when it came.
Could the same be applied to her death during the Spellplague? |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 08:08:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The beauty of having no restrictions is that it gives beings of power the illusion that they can control time and history, when in reality, it seems, Time itself reframes/reconstructs everything, like in MtG. Or maybe that's an unknown overgod in MtG working his wonders.
Non sequitur. Stated conclusion is unsupported by premise. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 06:08:11
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Good postulations, Wooly, Sage, and Therise. But wouldn't it be great if no one and nothing restricts time traveling? ...
No, I don't think it would be. You'd have endless re-framing of the timeline and anyone with the ability wouldn't be happy until they forced things to be "their way" and not someone else's.
The beauty of having no restrictions is that it gives beings of power the illusion that they can control time and history, when in reality, it seems, Time itself reframes/reconstructs everything, like in MtG. Or maybe that's an unknown overgod in MtG working his wonders. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 04:08:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Good postulations, Wooly, Sage, and Therise. But wouldn't it be great if no one and nothing restricts time traveling? ...
No, I don't think it would be. You'd have endless re-framing of the timeline and anyone with the ability wouldn't be happy until they forced things to be "their way" and not someone else's.
That's why I think the Chronomancer restrictions (by Mystryl, originally) make a lot of sense for the Realms. You can enjoy up to a year in any past time-frame, but nothing a time-traveler does will actually influence the real timeline. Almost like having one's own private time bubble.
It satisfies curiosity, yet prevents damage to reality. For both gods and mortals.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:11:11
Good postulations, Wooly, Sage, and Therise. But wouldn't it be great if no one and nothing restricts time traveling? I would like to go back to my MtG comparison. The MtG multiverse doesn't have deities, but there are beings in the setting which are akin to Toril's gods, if not in essence, then at least in power. There, no one has the ability to restrict time travel. Clockworkers and planeswalkers could manipulate time. However, there are variables and constants that they have to work with. One, they cannot undo a cataclysm. They can only affect it in the minutest way possible. [That might be one of the reasons the novel line is somehow more consistent, compared to FR.] Two, what one clockworker can alter, another clockworker [usually more powerful] can cancel. Three, there are many realities; but there exists no Prime Reality, just an illusion of it, something the Toralians would like to posit so as to make a reference point from which other realities can be based. Four, excessive use of magic/mana in a specific place at a particular time may rift the very fabric of time/reality, something the planeswalkers or beings of same might always find difficult and at times impossible to repair. Thus, most who dabble with time-related spells take special care [at least the sane and wise ones] to utilize just enough magic to further their goals, not too much as to disrupt the time stream. |
| Therise |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 18:31:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Guys, can we keep it on topic?
I'm trying to understand why the first Mystra did not go back in time to undo Karsus's Folly... As I noted, her gains would have outweighed her losses. Surely such act wouldn't destroy all of Toril, would it? Did she see the future where the Netherese lived like the Imaskarans, defying the gods, including her? Did she see one of them successfully ascending and replacing one of the greater gods, allying with her rival deities, killing her ruthlessly, and preventing her from ever reappearing? So many possibilities, so little clues...
Although Mystra could theoretically jump time and change futures, she may not be able to if she's operating under certain rules.
Traveling time is a "game changer" of the worst kind. Imagine that ability as having a nuclear bomb. If many countries have nuclear bombs, it may be necessary for the safety of the entire world to have a nuclear accord. Similarly, if many deities have the ability to travel time and change things to their personal benefit, it might be necessary to have a "temporal accord" such that everyone agrees not to use it.
In such a case, perhaps Mystra was the guardian of the temporal accord, one of the rules of deities that mortals don't get to see because we might not understand the reasons or ramifications.
Thinking about this, there may have been many events that "happened" in mythic time, but never happened in current real time. Once you have more than one deity that knows how to travel time, they may have started to use that ability whenever they wanted. And in so doing, started damaging the timeline. Things like the Dawn Cataclysm may have happened in a timeline that was subsequently erased. It still happened for the gods, but not for mortals, so it became "mythic time" and part of legend.
Eventually, with too many gods erasing and re-doing events as they saw fit, it might have necessitated a temporal accord. Mystra may have been the accord's guardian, and Ao may have been the enforcer.
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