| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 12:27:01
With Baator having direct links to Toril via portals in the Barrens of Doom and Despair, Clangor and the Blood Rift the Nine Hells are pretty solidly linked to the Forgotten Realms. I am partial to Gray Richardson's theory that Shar opened these portals during the onset of the War of Light and Darkness.
These portals have been open ever since, so how widespread is devil worship in the realms?
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We know the Knights of the Shield have far reaching influence in mercantile endeavors and are based in Baldurs Gate; but how far does their diabolical reach go?
Devil worship is also quite prevalent amongst goblinoid races. Hobgoblins are known to have great respect for Dispater the Iron Lord and goblins revere Maglubiyet, who is practically a devil-god. Are there any other monstrous humanoids that practise devil worship almost exclusively? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 21 Jul 2011 : 15:21:11
Ah, Gargauth, one of my favorite dieties in the realms.
I think the fact that Gargauth chose the Realms as his playground is very worrying. His ultimate goal, whatever that is, is bound to be catastrophic for the whole cosmology of Toril.
Seeing that 4e has no mention of him (or does he?), Fearuns pantheon is likely to start hunting him down somewhere down the line of the Roll of Years after the spellplage. Or mayhap it was Asmodeus himself that put an end to his plans... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 21 Jul 2011 : 15:12:01
Awesome, thanks Kno. I never heard of the Dragonspear castle but after consulting my sources it holds a telling example of the reaction of fearunians when confronted with devil infestations: set aside everything that is happening immediately and form an alliance to eradicate the lower planar threat ASAP. |
| Kno |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 19:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any other monstrous humanoids that practise devil worship almost exclusively?
No, a few minotaurs worshipped Geryon tough, hags Lilith, bugbears Baalzebul, and fire giants Mephistopheles. Possibly there are humanoid tribes around the Pit of Peleveran and Dragonspear Castle that fell to baatezu influence. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 05:47:35
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
With Baator having direct links to Toril via portals in the Barrens of Doom and Despair, Clangor and the Blood Rift the Nine Hells are pretty solidly linked to the Forgotten Realms. I am partial to Gray Richardson's theory that Shar opened these portals during the onset of the War of Light and Darkness.
These portals have been open ever since, so how widespread is devil worship in the realms?
___
We know the Knights of the Shield have far reaching influence in mercantile endeavors and are based in Baldurs Gate; but how far does their diabolical reach go?
Devil worship is also quite prevalent amongst goblinoid races. Hobgoblins are known to have great respect for Dispater the Iron Lord and goblins revere Maglubiyet, who is practically a devil-god. Are there any other monstrous humanoids that practise devil worship almost exclusively?
I figure wherever in the Realms there are driven individuals who harbor intense greed + knowledge of summoning rituals or lower plane gates or some worshipper, priest or mage w/access to a devil, therein is devil worship in the Realms. Thus I think it's fairly widespread, especially given how magical & spiritual the Realms are, giving so much evidence of the worlds & galaxies beyond what they see w/their fleshy eyes. But while I'm sure it's widespread, it's most likely trumped by the worship of evil deities or service to evil power groups, and the deities that are given primary worship therein (ie- Cyric worship amongst the Zhentarim). Thankfully, the Realms are also populated w/people of good alignments who seek to perfect thier abilities in battle craft!
The Knights of the Shield are lead by Gargauth the Outcast, an evil quasi-power who unlike most deities, devils, demons, angels & spirits, has no home in the Planescape multiverse, due to being kicked out both the 9 Hells & Abyss for how damn evil he was. So I guess it's the DM's option to roleplay how far his influence extends in the Planes. But the mortal members, particularly the Shield Council that leads the order and are lead themselves by Gargauth, are quite wealthy, and thus their influence regarding how they operate in their professions, extends fairly far along the Sword Coast, especially in Baldur's Gate, Amn & Tethyr.
But the whole conundrum thereof is, according to the Lands of Intrigue, there's no Planewalker or (true) sage-like person amongst the Shield Council's mortal membership to aid in gauging the true prowress of how their efforts will impact thier after-lives in the Planes (the priest of Gargauth isn't a Planewalker & doesn't truly count as a sage b/c he's biased in favor of an outcast quasi-power; and while the marilith is -by her nature- a Planewalker that chooses to dwell on Toril, I'm sure she'd much rather keep her cards close to the chest). So while the mortals therein are in service to Gargauth w/their minds, hearts & assets, and even enjoy a good standard of living thereof in Toril, there's no way for them to correctly discern how powerful or not Gargauth is in the Planescape multiverse; and nevermind all the politRicKs going on regarding him in both the 9 Hells & Abyss, and again the beings he's made enemies with in other evil Planes, and the good & neutral planes.
Like I wrote in the recent demon worship thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15466), the same factors apply to devil worship too. Really, a 'prime' seeking to bond w/an available & advertising devil or demon is at best 'a shot in the dark' b/c the prime knows so little about the Planes; is at middle ground 'Russian Roulette,' w/way more factors coming into play than simple 7 empty chambers vs. 1 loaded one; and at its worst, it's 'bringing a knife to a gun fight,' given all the lack of viable provisions for all the things that can go wrong in the magical world of Toril, all the lack of viable provisions for all the crazy happenings & dealings in the Lower Planes, and all the lack of viable provisions when the 'prime' fails his tasks, misjudges his value, deludes him/herself in one way or the other in every aspect his first life, 2nd life, and final life in the Planes. The success stories (ie- a prime who was a good army general in his 1st life, a good warrior in his 2nd, and then arose to pit fiend in his life in devildom) never tell the whole story, and don't account for the abundance of failures on so many levels (ie- the pit fiends who miscalculated miserably, earned a host of enemies, lost his pit fiend form in battle, and is now a nupperibo, and will most likely stay that way, given all the enemies the nupperibo made when he was a powerful pit fiend; nevermind the fool in his 1st life, 2nd life, and then stays a nupperibo for all his final life).
It's one of those 3 activities on the risk scale, unless the mortal has an all-knowing, good-aligned, noble deity constantly guiding, speaking & directing him/her in the navigation process, which of course would be an impossibility; a good aligned god sending a servant to go 'worship' a creature of the lower planes. It juss goes to show the conundrum of the whole thing: a good aligned deity would only guide his mortal subject in such a way if there's a devil or demon who wants sincere, no-strings-attached friendship w/the mortal who serves the good deity (juss like there are fallen angels & devas, there's also lower plane dwellers who seek measures of good & neutral behaviour). And if there's a method of navigating through the process that's as effective as being lead by a good all-knowing deity without having a relationship w/the good deity, then it's nigh unpronouncable.
Anyhow, your best bet regarding the Knight of the Shield is getting the 2e Lands of Intrigue sourcebook. It's my favourite sourcebook, it's free, and Candlkeep has a link right here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13961
Go for it, I can promise that you will not regret it! Especially if you're a Baldur's Gate fan, as there's so many people that appear in the series but don't have extensive detail about'em, but have detailed write-ups in LoI! |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 03:49:49
The changes in 4E, the push-down of the Abyss, the end of the Blood War, and Asmodeus's ascension to deity status... well, these all pose something of a problem when considering the original cosmology. It's unclear whether or not the "Pact Primeval" and its associated story is "true" any more. And if not, many of the things established in Planescape may no longer be true at all.
It does indeed seem strange that Asmodeus doesn't simply outclass all the other deities. After all, he not only absorbed another deity and gained greater deity status, he still rules the Nine Hells and all his former minions, and has access to all the souls collected by his devils from the Fugue Plane. While he was limited in how those souls could be used as an Archdevil, as a deity he can use that energy quite differently.
So yeah... very curious indeed...
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 00:31:31
Fiction has demonstrated that, contrary to what they may often claim, Ao's pantheon of Faerūnian deities tend to be a bunch of elitists of one flavour or another ... various synonyms for elitist such as pompous, upstart, supercilious, overbearing, pretender, haughty, highbrow, etc can be applied to individual deities to add distinctive flavours. The fact of the matter seems to be that that they're an exclusive bunch, and though they might often squabble and oppose and even hate each other they're also a sort of "family" who will (in theory) unify in the face of external threats. D&D fiction always seems to put a lot of weight on the bad guy, be it Cyric or Shar or perhaps Mask, but I personally feel that one or two rotten gods cannot reasonably oppose the combined will and power of all the others who occupy the same cosmos. If anything, Asmodeus should be vastly more powerful than little Shar, simply because (in theory) he commands the service of every single devil in the universe. But such arguments might be a topic better debated elsewhere.
Still, it seems that if a consensus of divine fiat says no interference will be tolerated in the Realms by interloping Archdevils then so it is done and so mote it be. It might even be argued that every acolyte with a holy symbol who can call upon divine power to turn undead and banish extraplanar bad guys is a practical demonstration of such divine enforcement in asserting and securing their territory from fiendish invasion.
Of course forbidden fruit is always the tastiest prize, especially for devils with insatiably evil appetites ... even if they're compelled and constrained by the conditions of some cosmic contract decreed by Ao they'll eternally be looking for loopholes and technicalities they can exploit. Fellows such as Asmodeus and Meph have sufficient intelligence, potence, and divinity to see real results if they choose to make real effort. Imagine Asmodeus establishing permanent gates to hell and charging his Chosen to lead his armies and establish his unholy glory in the Realms ... or die trying ... or endure a thousand centuries of suffering worse than death ... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 13:32:01
Those fiends definately have a certain infamy in the Realms, but they practise a very different tactic when dealing with the Prime. Simple invasions is what demons/tanar'ri usually try, they rarely try to accrue actual willing support from the Prime Material of Toril.
Baatezu/devils have a more sinister goal in that they try to build upon the existing structures in the Primes, twisting them towards giving up their souls willingly. I bet there have been whole continents/civilisations on Abeir-Toril that we don't know about that have damned themsleves to devil worship and communally sacrificed their whole capital of souls to devils. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 13:07:07
Let's not forget about Lolth, Orcus, Gruumsh, Juiblex, etc. Perhaps their names and backgrounds have been revised, but they've enjoyed celebrity status on Oerth since D&D emerged from the primordial Gygaxian goop. Their status seemed to be implicitly integrated into the substrate of the Realms, since drow and orcs and others still worshipped the same old demons and devils, and since modules featuring these entities could (and were) easily located within either of these settings.
Don't forget about Ascalhorn. Or the destruction of Myth Drannor, and many other ancient places, by legions invading from the lower planes. Fully one fifth of the Nether Scrolls dealt extensively with planar mechanics. Tyr apparently arrived in the Realms spearheading an army of celestial champions, and some accounts describe this event involving some great conflict with vast armies of fiends. The daemonfey apparently made their deals with tanar'ri demons some 5000 years past. 1E D&D had a handful of spells which were of particular use in dealing with lower planar sorts, and these were later reintroduced to 2E via Planescape materials. I think it's quite likely that Spelljammer and Planar travellers (or colonists) arriving on Toril over many millennia would bring with them some knowledge of the fiends; I imagine anyone who's spent time in Sigil would warn their children about devils. Let's also not forget that the Faerūnian pantheon, alongside countless "pagan" deities scattered across lands and histories on Toril, would also possess a sophisticated understanding of planar entities. How could they not be aware of the Blood War?
Perhaps Asmodeus is not "well known" in the Realms. Or perhaps he is, just not by that name. The Shadovar, and a few others, certainly recognized Mephistopheles on sight, and were even able to apply knowledge of Meph's psychology toward their interactions with him ... so it's not impossible that Meph has attempted to cultivate followers in times past and present. Perhaps Pazuzu and Demogorgon have as well, though with little success ... or perhaps they've overlooked Toril whilst their focus was elsewhere.
There are also entities like Tyranthraxus the Flamed One. Although often described as slaves or servants or minions of Bane or Shar or this-or-that evil Faerūnian deity these fellows quite often achieve immense power and fame all on their own, sometimes even exarch demipower, sometimes even establishing their own priesthoods - at least for a little while. |
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