| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:40:32
Bladesinger preview I found on the WotC site. Pretty cool if you ask me. |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 14:45:34
So any idea how someone where to use Power Swap feats to gain Daily spells? As the class feature's spellbook states, they take Wizard Encounter spells and treat them like Daily spells. So if one were to take the Swordmage multiclass feat and then the Daily Power Swap feat....what exactly happens here? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 21:42:18
yeahh it did say controller |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 21:30:51
Hmm, guess I'm remembering it wrong. Anyway, same argument applies. 
Cheers |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 18:17:25
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm glad people are finding the Bladesinger intriguing. 
As I see it, this Bladesinger is trying to get back to the old-school Bladesinger, rather than putting a defendery or controllery spin on the class. The conceptual Bladesinger doesn't fit into any role perfectly, so striker is a valid choice based on the mechanical concept, and in a party of 5-6, you usually have multiple strikers or defenders, so it's most reasonable to have the bladesinger be one of those. (I probably would have made it a controller, but that's just me).
A tag-team swordmage and bladesinger would be awesome. Add a cleric of Corellon and an eladrin wand wizard, and you're got an extremely effective fey strike team.
Cheers
Actually the PDF had is as an Arcane Controller, like it's parent "Wizard" class. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 15:42:40
I'm glad people are finding the Bladesinger intriguing.
As I see it, this Bladesinger is trying to get back to the old-school Bladesinger, rather than putting a defendery or controllery spin on the class. The conceptual Bladesinger doesn't fit into any role perfectly, so striker is a valid choice based on the mechanical concept, and in a party of 5-6, you usually have multiple strikers or defenders, so it's most reasonable to have the bladesinger be one of those. (I probably would have made it a controller, but that's just me).
A tag-team swordmage and bladesinger would be awesome. Add a cleric of Corellon and an eladrin wand wizard, and you're got an extremely effective fey strike team.
Cheers |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:14:54
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
Bladespells - Probably the bigger offender of the two, but this ability is a nice way to really show that you mix your melee and your magic, so I'm fine with it (even if it is a bit on the strong side.)
They have to be strong, given that your dailies are just Wizard Encounter powers. These are spells your almost required to spam all the time and the reason why you get 3 of them plus magic missile.
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
But then here's where I'm let down: The Spellbook.
Unless there is a Paragon/Epic tier that builds on the Heroic tier here, then it seems like you'll never match up as a mage, regardless of how you try. In short; You'll never be able to make Josediah Starym with this class.
By the end of your career (level 29) you know 14 "Encounter as Daily" wizard powers, and can only ever have 3 of them prepared per day? That's pretty novice spellcasting, IMO. The Utility wizard powers you get make up for this a little bit (knowing up to 10 and preparing up to 5/day) but not much.
I'm going on the assumption that your comparing it to other 4E classes like the Wizard or Sorcerer. And your right, 3 total encounter powers by the end of your career does seem sorta limited, but keep in mind you won't be preparing lower level encounters and we don't know if he's allowed to learn and use multiple encounters of the highest level (preparing two 27th level wizard encounters for example).
Maybe I'm just a liberal DM, but I'm of the opinion that while the Bladesinger might only learn this allotment of spells in her/her spellbook, there's nothing hindering the class from learning more from other wizards or mages. Sorta like how the v3.5 wizard only received 2 spells per level but we knew they could add more if they got them (through adventuring or buying them outright).
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
I've seen the opinion that the 3/3.5 PrC didn't do the class justice, but I'd have to disagree. With the 3.5 version anyway, by level 10, you had gained 8 more caster levels. With the right balance of class levels and spell selection, you could be a pretty decent melee fighter and still know your 9th level spells. For example, a Ftr4/Wiz1/BlS10 would be a 15th level character with a +11 BAB and still be treated as a 9th level caster, with no limit on what spells could be learned. How was that bad?
It depends on how you judge "bad". I'd like to point that a Bladesinger could never reach 9th level wizard spells if they fully progressed as a Bladesinger. At best, they could reach 5th level if they go ftr 4/wizard 6/bladesinger 10. So lets compare this build: Ftr 2/Wiz 6/Spellsword 5 (2 levels lower) to your Ftr 4/Wiz 1/Bladesinger 10. He has a CL of 11th and can cast up to 5th level spells. Wears mithril heavy plate w/o hinderance on his spells and has a BAB of 10 which is just 1 off from yours. A person could just "reflavor" him as a Bladesinger and it's mechanically more powerful.
And I don't think the problem is it's spell progression per-se (I'd like to see 7/10 or 8/10 progression myself) but the levels at which you gain abilities. To be honest, there are just too many dead levels. The PrC's Level-Cap is just not very inviting and doesn't give a characater any real reason to progress further into the Bladesinger other than a few levels. |
| Neo2151 |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 06:54:31
I downloaded the .pdf and I gotta say, I'm kinda underwhelmed (also, I don't see how this is at all a Controller instead of a Striker. Maybe this comes in at later levels?) I will say that there are things I like though, so before I get all negative, I'll start with those. 
Instinctive Attack - Here's one of the strengths of 4E coming to light again. It's very nice to be able to focus on one or two primary ability scores instead of trying to split them every which way (like you used to have to) just to make a non-standard class work. Call me a BIG fan of allowing a Bladesinger to use Int instead of Str for attack and damage in melee!
Guarded Flourish - I'm a caster that spends all my time in melee, and I don't have to worry about tons of attacks of op? Wonderful.
Blade Magic - This is practically required for this type of class. Good to see they didn't overlook it!
Moving on, there's a couple things I'm more neutral on, but don't really have anything against them. They're also, likely, the two abilities that have people on other forums crying out that the class might be a little on the over-powered side:
Bladesong - Doesn't really add anything thematic to the class, but extra defenses and damage output are never a bad thing.
Bladespells - Probably the bigger offender of the two, but this ability is a nice way to really show that you mix your melee and your magic, so I'm fine with it (even if it is a bit on the strong side.)
But then here's where I'm let down: The Spellbook.
Unless there is a Paragon/Epic tier that builds on the Heroic tier here, then it seems like you'll never match up as a mage, regardless of how you try. In short; You'll never be able to make Josediah Starym with this class.
By the end of your career (level 29) you know 14 "Encounter as Daily" wizard powers, and can only ever have 3 of them prepared per day? That's pretty novice spellcasting, IMO. The Utility wizard powers you get make up for this a little bit (knowing up to 10 and preparing up to 5/day) but not much.
I've seen the opinion that the 3/3.5 PrC didn't do the class justice, but I'd have to disagree. With the 3.5 version anyway, by level 10, you had gained 8 more caster levels. With the right balance of class levels and spell selection, you could be a pretty decent melee fighter and still know your 9th level spells. For example, a Ftr4/Wiz1/BlS10 would be a 15th level character with a +11 BAB and still be treated as a 9th level caster, with no limit on what spells could be learned. How was that bad?
I realize that this preview is only of the 1st level abilities, so maybe it starts to make more sense in later levels, or maybe there's Paragon/Epic paths that allow for what I feel is missing, so definitely take my "review" with a grain of salt. But to me the class is feeling like a fighter who just dabbles a little bit into magic rather than the epic blending of swordplay and sorcery that Bladesingers are supposed to be.
Just my 2 cents. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 04:55:34
I liked what I've read of it so far |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 17:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by The_Silversword
Where did the Bladesinger first appear anyway? I was thinking that it was a Realms original but the earliest reference I can find of it is in the 2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves which was a non setting book. Did it appear before that in a Realms supplement? Anyone know?
From what I know (and someone plz correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the idea of a Bladesinger was first introduced via novels such as the Island of Elves, Library of Cormanthyr book, and a few other sources. It was then produced for the game in 2E as a Kit (Book of Elves as you mentioned) and thought by a good majority to be very "Broken" by those standards.
It also slightly appeard in the Baldur's Gate games as a specific style of armor you could obtain called Bladesinger's Chain +4 (Description: The lore of this suit is difficult to determine, either due to the exotic circumstances from which it sprang, or the wish of its previous owner to conceal its location. Secrecy would certainly be desirable, as even rumors of such a mail as this could provoke deadly interest. It is the pinnacle of elven craft, and a truly blessed item.)
STATISTICS: Armor Class: 1
Weight: 15
Requires: 5 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid, Mage
From there, it became more of a cult following and an arch-type of it's own, something that was specifically designed just for elves. It's popularity grew even further with 3e and then v3.5 as it produced two distinct Prestige Classes (one 3e and one v3.5) as well as a separate class all it's own (the Duskblade). The PrCs, while not mechanically good, (it's by far the best way of mechanically doing sword-magic or a blade/spell style) it retained it's uniqueness to only just elves.
The swordmage of 4E really put the whole theme into question as it was a main class within 3 months of 4E's debut. From the get-go, there was a spell-blade stylish character that was very familiar to the Bladesinging of old, but there were inherint difference between the two. The first being that any race can be a Swordmage (mostly upstart humans that learned the theme from elves  ). And secondly, their focus shifted from being a dual-role/class of controlling the battlefield and dealing some decent damage to a straight defender of it's allies. This shift changed what it, I feel, was a good flavor of the original Bladesinger.
The current designe philosophy (from my own observations) is that people wanted more from the Swordmage. There are so many Hybrid Wizard/Swordmages or Swordmages that MC into wizard that there is still a large niche for this thematic feel of being a controller while holding a sword and fighting with magic. The Swordmage isn't a bad class and very effective at defending but it lacks the feel of wizardly powers and prowess. It lacks the BIG BOOMS and control of the Wizard. Notice I said feel and did not mention mechanics because you can do this with the Swordmage, but not out of the box and not without at least a little modification in the form of Multiclass feats or Hybrids. Thus the Bladesinger is reborn. |
| The_Silversword |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 16:49:04
Where did the Bladesinger first appear anyway? I was thinking that it was a Realms original but the earliest reference I can find of it is in the 2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves which was a non setting book. Did it appear before that in a Realms supplement? Anyone know? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 06:11:14
I can see that Diffan.
Guess I got hung up on the fluff, and past edition restrictions of the Bladesinger Kit or Prestige Class.
Got to love the "armchair designers". |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 05:42:52
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
For some reason people are thinking that any race can be a 4E Bladesinger on other forums. Even with the fluff of the article using Eladrin, Elf, and Drow from the character write up.
Well to be fair there's nothing restricting other Races from entering the Bladesinger class (other than DM fiat). So it's possible to be a Tiefling Bladesinger or a Drow Bladesinger or a Human Bladesinger. I would, however, in my campaigns limit it to elven races (eladrin, elves, and half-elves) personally.
Now, if someone wants to rename the class "Spellsword" and use a Drow or Tiefling, I'm ok with that |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 05:38:26
Well said Penknight, echoing my thoughts exactly. I've been crusading this class on a few different forums as there's been a lot of negative talk about it not being a sub-class of the Swordmage or Bard (something I myself had considered to be so). So as I read among the rabid complaints of "poor class design" and "yet another blow to the Swordmage class" I can't help but feel the Bladesinger was never really designed for the Role that either the Swordmage or the Bard utilize (defender and leader, respectively).
Instead, the Bladesinger has been a dual-role of sorts since it's inception during 2E (my first days of D&D and an infatuation with the class/scheme as a whole). So I can say I'm glad it's not a total "Controller" or a total "Striker" as it was never meant to fulfill some cosmic place with a narrow view of what is and isn't. Instead, it floats between being a wizard sometimes, damaging enemies at range while being an offensive weapon, dealing good attacks and damage in melee (and thus defending to a point, his weaker allies).
I don't think this is the BEST class WotC has produced in 4E, but it is one of the most flavorable classes and great in an party. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 05:35:21
For some reason people are thinking that any race can be a 4E Bladesinger on other forums. Even with the fluff of the article using Eladrin, Elf, and Drow from the character write up. |
| Penknight |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 20:51:03
Though I am not a fan of 4E at all, I am a fan of bladesingers. My first "real" character was a moon elf bladesinger named Damaston Moonstone that wielded his family's moonblade back in 2E. After playing him for a number of years, I just couldn't imagine not playing one, or at least a fighter/mage. When 3E came around, I made a new bladesinger, something I had always wanted to play, which was a fey'ri bladesinger named Telethian Ealoeth, or Telethian Phoenix as he was known during the elven crusade. For me, bladesingers always carried the mystique and class that I felt an elf truly had and was, and they were the defenders of the People.
Coming now to present day, and after downloading and reading the elaborate history that they've designed for elven bladesingers, both moon elf, sun elf and others... it makes me smile, and calls to mind that first time I sat down with The Complete Elves Handbook and started rolling my dice, my new book I'd just purchased, The Elves of Evermeet laying open on the table beside me and opened to the information on designing a moonblade. With such wonderful memories like these going through my mind as I looked the preview over, I couldn't help but smile and remember what was. As far as I'm concerned, this history, this style, has opened up the doorway to the past and let it dance in the timeless, elegant dance of the new to introduce a new group of players to the wonder, awe, and majesty that is the bladesinger.
Bravo, to whoever sat down and designed this class. And to those of you just now coming to them for the first time, spare a moment and remember me, and my characters of yesteryear. Those that have gone on before, acting as guardians of the People in the time before your characters. Damaston gladly passes off the torch to all of you, and Telethian does the same as a new age dawns. Once again, for the People! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 20:02:18
This would make a great tandem with a swordmage in a party. I hope it gets aome DDi love and we get various paragon or other options to add to the class. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 18:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan As for Josediah, wasn't he the Bladesinger that owned Guenhwyvar first?
Aye, he got that figurine from his friend in Cormanthyr, a human wizard named Anders Beltgarden.
Josediah's 2e stats were 15th level fighter/wizard (male gold elf; LG). He was the last Spellmajor for Cormanthyr and defended his position as archmage several times from rival attacks by actual archmages!
His greatest spell was a kamikaze-like selfsacrifice. He divinely charged himself with Sehanines and Mystras power and actually RODE a red lightningbolt into the fiendish hordes attacking Myth Drannor, levelling the Seculum, an arcane tower, and the entire battlefield around it.
My hope is that epic bladesingers are ULTIMATE NOVA like melee wizards, capable of dishing out large swaths of elemental and steely damage. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 14:37:13
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Bumble-heads indeed. LOL
I definately agree that this class' mechanics resemble the image I have in my mind of what bladesingers do. It's leaps ahead when compared to the 3.5 PrC versions.
The only thing that PrC did capture well was song of celerity; i.e. the ability to attack and cast a spell in the same round (starting at character level 10!), and this 4e wizard build does it from the get-go AND does it every round.
Definitly! I also love the fact that they get 3 at-will attacks plus Magic Missile, which just plays with syngergy with specific feats designed for multiple Keywords like Astral Fire (Radiant/Fire), Raging Storm (Lighting/Thunder), Wintertouched, etc... Some really intriguing possibilities here.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am especially intrigued in seeing the paragon and epic tier bladesinger powers. Might be we can finally see a mechanically sound Josediah Starym; one that does have arcane powers on par with the greatest mages of his time but packs a frightening swordblow aswell.
As am I. I've a feeling the class will more than make up for the lack of Dailes and not just in the form of extra Encounter powers. As for Josediah, wasn't he the Bladesinger that owned Guenhwyvar first? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 14:16:20
Bumble-heads indeed. LOL
I definately agree that this class' mechanics resemble the image I have in my mind of what bladesingers do. It's leaps ahead when compared to the 3.5 PrC versions.
The only thing that PrC did capture well was song of celerity; i.e. the ability to attack and cast a spell in the same round (starting at character level 10!), and this 4e wizard build does it from the get-go AND does it every round.
I am especially intrigued in seeing the paragon and epic tier bladesinger powers. Might be we can finally see a mechanically sound Josediah Starym; one that does have arcane powers on par with the greatest mages of his time but packs a frightening swordblow aswell. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 04:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Any clue what steely retort might entail? Sounds like a 'punishing move' like a defender has.
Possibly, maybe a Immediate Reaction power designed to put more damage on a creature that moves/shifts adjacent to you or within an area of your spells. We'll just have to wait for the whole book to come out (or go to Gen-Con) but I'm just really intrigued.
Of course the Char_Ops boards are already attempting to hit it over the head with the broken-stick or crying how this or that is bad design but I'm seriously getting PO'ed at those guys *sheesh*.
Aside from those bumble-heads, I think the features shown in the preview are really interesting and show some diversity in class design. The best part about the Bladesinger's At-will powers are that they can target other creatures NOT being attacked by your Melee Basic Attack. So in the battle, you swing or stab with the MBA and some other bad-guy in the range of 10 gets a nice face-full of frost or radiant damage!!
In all honesty though, this is probably one of the best renditions of the Bladesinger I've seen since 2E's Kits or the Bladesong-Duskblade substitution levels. It's just very very fitting. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 00:08:55
Any clue what steely retort might entail? Sounds like a 'punishing move' like a defender has. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 23:50:31
I second everything Bladewind says. I also appreciate the way it's designed so that you have to be a Bladesinger to gain those abilities. No more cherry picking the good bits and leaving the rest by the way-side.
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| Bladewind |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 23:46:57
I approve of this.
Captures the oldschool of the bladesinger perfectly by allowing them to dip into wizard encounter and utility powers AND allowing intelligence to govern their attack power. I think the guarded flourish and the bladesong class feature are real winners aswel in terms of flavour and power. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:53:46
I read it and am very suprised of the course they took, totally didn't expect it in all honesty. While I'm not thrilled at the "role" of the class, it doesn't diminish it's effect, Realms-ian style/flavor, or over-all power in the slightest.
All-in-all, a much better way of converting my v3.5 Bladesinger than a straight-up Swordmage or Wizard/hybrid. |
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