| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Analysis |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:16:25
I am considering introducing an undead druid in a campaign, specifically a ghoul. However, I am uncertain on which, if any, of the deities which empower druids would accept an undead follower. I thus ask those of you who may know: is anything written on this? Are there any precedents? I assume someone like Silvanus is all out? Does Malar have an opinion either way? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Saer Cormaeril |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 20:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't understand how what you said had to do with what I said.
I think the point being made is that there's a difference between an undead follower of deity and the nature-focused undead follower of a deity. With druids being focused on nature, it seems unlikely that any deity would allow an undead druid. It's hard to serve nature when you're an abomination against the natural order.
Unless you are a baelnorn druid, of course. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 18:13:21
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't understand how what you said had to do with what I said.
I think the point being made is that there's a difference between an undead follower of deity and the nature-focused undead follower of a deity. With druids being focused on nature, it seems unlikely that any deity would allow an undead druid. It's hard to serve nature when you're an abomination against the natural order. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 17:22:09
I don't understand how what you said had to do with what I said. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 06:33:32
He was not druid. So, nay. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 05:20:31
But...are Talos, Umberlee, Auril, Talona, etc. not nature deities. Who are all evil? My friend who is with me (reading over my shoulder) thinks even evil nature deities would hate undead, but I think that they would not care. I think any of these evil deities would allow an undead follower. Didn't Velsharoon serve Talos before becoming a lich and then a demigod? |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 22 Jul 2011 : 07:09:10
He was already mentioned. Rare specific individual. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 21 Jul 2011 : 20:33:49
Are we all seeing "nature deity" the same way? People opposed to the idea mention Silvanus, etc. not having undead druids. But aren't Talos, Umberlee, Malar, Talona, and Auril nature deities as well.
Then in the Eldreth Veluuthra isn't there a evil druid/hierophant lich of Auril named Lossarwyn? He was a druid but wanted to create a disease that would kill humans (druid of talona?), and the like. Nature isn't necessarily balanced or good. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 08:36:28
Well, I suggested blighter, cause he does not really need deity, since he sucks out life of nature around him. And controls dead animals.
But if you need someone associated with deities, try talonian blightlord. |
| see |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 20:57:55
Talona strikes me as the perfect deity for a ghoul druid. She's on the Nature Deity list, so she can have druids. She's the goddess of disease, and not only are rotting unburied bodies a great incubator of disease, ghouls in 3.x/PF specifically spread the disease Ghoul Fever. She's the goddess of poison, and ghouls' paralytic touch resembles a poison in effect. Her clerics commanded undead instead of turning them in Faiths & Avatars. And she was associated with Myrkul through her service to Bhaal.
However, if you want a nature deity that has a more explicit connection to undead, Umberlee is on the F&P Nature Deity list, and in F&A, "Umberlee also acts through . . . all types of aquatic undead including (inland) undead lake monsters." |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 11:08:38
Mostly, the nature dieties would abhor any undead, for there being upsets the balance. I could see specific instances where the balance of the environment is already unhinged and a nature diety would opt for letting a druid (temporarily) become undead. Especially if it allows the mummy/vampire/ghost druid to reach places he wasn't previously able to. I think the druid in question would be warned by the diety (lets say Mielikki) that he/she'd be making a sacrifice, as a god like Silvanus would have to remove you forcefully if they caught wind of your excistance.
That said, I think Malar would even favor his subjects that become vampires, as he doesn't seem to be that concerned for 'the balance' of things; he'd approve of the bloodlust that his vampire worshippers would show and the constant hunt they have to undergo just for sustenance. This hunt-tax would empower the diety of the hunt directly even if they didn't worship him because of Malars chosen portfolio.
Ghoul druids are problematic in that they typically lack the self control of other intelligent undead. But in an area where there is too much disease ridden carrion, a ghoul druid could make himself very useful by becoming a cleansing factor in the ecosystem: he'd take care of dead animals and their rotten meat personally. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 07:50:53
I suggest using Blighter. It can be used with undead, since the requirement is ex-druid. It does make sense with undead. Perhaps a dead druid who was returned from death, twisted to the mockery of what he was in life.
Oh, and I apologize if you ask about specifically druid. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:37:33
As a general rule, I would say no. The undead violate so much of what druids stand for... However, there are always special cases.
I can envision the following scenario: Imagine someone sailing on the sea, and Umberlee, in one of her rages decides to sink the ship. Perhaps someone on it - or the entire crew - offended her. Everyone dies a horrible death by drowning. Yet, one person is cursed to live in undeath - cursed to live and serve the Bitch Queen - to protect the seas, to send a message to all that despoil the ocean. They are cursed to remember their own folly and suffer for it eternally, so that all that encounters this individual KNOWS her wrathful anger.
I can imagine something similar when it comes to many other deities of Fury. An individual dies in some horrible way, but is CURSED - they're brought back as undead and given power to serve the deity.
These individuals would be INSANELY rare. There may only be one of them - the PC or NPC in question. They would be an outcast among the druids who serve the deity, and a abomination worthy of destruction by anyone outside that faith. They would have no allies among the other druids, and even the animals themselves would reject them for their unlife. Yet, their power - particularly their power in their deities chosen domain (such as Umberlee and the sea), would be very strong - perhaps even growing to legendary prowess.
This is how I'd create the exception to the rule. |
| Neo2151 |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 05:08:26
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I think Moander is a fantastic choice. After all, rot is part of the cycle of life.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one to have thought of this! 
I'm not sure how Moander/Finder would really feel about an Undead, but death and rot are all part of nature and can easily be applied to a druid (in fact, the PHB2 for Pathfinder has several alternate rule-sets for the classes, and a Druid of decay is one of them! Something I've been wanting to play for a long time actually. ) |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 20:50:09
I think Moander is a fantastic choice. After all, rot is part of the cycle of life. Plus, I'm partial to the Maw.
The Entombed from Frostburn would be even more frightening with a few class levels. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 23:12:35
Malar seems like the best deity to have a ghoul servant. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 04:21:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
Source?
[I'm asking because that particular tidbit isn't rining any SageBells in my head.] 
Ras Nsi is described as being able to do this in Ring of Winter. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 03:34:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra... 
And given that both the watery depths and/or icy tundra can make for some truly gruesome deaths, the prospect of a water-based undead cleric or ice-based undead spellcaster... is frightening indeed! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 03:32:48
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
Source?
[I'm asking because that particular tidbit isn't rining any SageBells in my head.] |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 23:41:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra...
Mwahahaha! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:55:48
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra... |
| Darkhund |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:17:05
I'm prepared to admit I could be wrong, but I was sure one was undead. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Analysis
Where can I find information on the Chosen of Ubtao? Might not be what I need, but sounds interesting nonetheless.
Powers & Pantheons, The Jungles of Chult, and Ring of Winter. |
| Analysis |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 21:15:15
Where can I find information on the Chosen of Ubtao? Might not be what I need, but sounds interesting nonetheless. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 16:45:14
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
Ubtao has some of his chosen as Undead that have druid levels.
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
I wasn't aware that any of his barae were undead... Immortal, yes, but not undead. |
| Darkhund |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 15:52:28
Ubtao has some of his chosen as Undead that have druid levels.
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 13:35:10
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help? |
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 11:37:09
Perhaps a baelnorn? |
| Analysis |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 09:36:53
Thank you all for your various perspectives.
Talos vs necromancers (including Velsharoon IIRC) could probably be seen as a precedent, yes.
Drawing power from nature itself contradicts material like the 3rd ed Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, and while Lossarwyn implies an exception, I've seen some online developer discussion where that was described as something that should have been removed during editing but didn't.
The ideal solution, I guess, might be to let deities like Ghaunadaur or Moander count as nature deities, and thus allow them followers that, mechanically, are druids... |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:48:14
quote:
Originally posted by Analysis
I am considering introducing an undead druid in a campaign, specifically a ghoul. However, I am uncertain on which, if any, of the deities which empower druids would accept an undead follower. I thus ask those of you who may know: is anything written on this? Are there any precedents? I assume someone like Silvanus is all out? Does Malar have an opinion either way?
(Spoiler)
In the Johnny Depp movie "Sleepy Hollow," there is an undead druid that helps Ichabod Crane on his quest.
(End Spoiler)
That being said, I think putting an undead druid in your campaign is something that can enrich your gaming table. In both 2e & 3e/3.5e, ghouls & ghasts are sentient (as in they're not mindless like zombies, though there are ju-ju zombies and IIRC they're sentient, but that's another story). However, while they can effectively converse in the language they spoke when living, I believe the change to ghoul/ghast adversely affects not juss thier flesh, but also their minds, wherein unlike the vampire or lich, they can't cast spells anymore (2nd Spoiler: I learned that from a quest in the 3e PC game Neverwinter Nights 1's Official Campaign End 2nd Spoiler).
Thus, if you were to make an undead druid, I think it'd be better if you made them either a lich, vampire, mummy, revenant, or another type of intelligent undead that I haven't mentioned.
Also according to my Neverwinter Nights 2 manual (a 3.5e source)druids can cast divine spells like clerics do, but most get their spells from nature rather than from deities. Though that's not to say that they can't get spells from deities, they juss have the option to get it from nature instead. Of course nature-based deities like Silvanus & others can grant druid spells too (re: the 2e multi-class option of Cleric/Ranger gets spells usually only reserved for druids).
And I wouldn't rule out a good or neutral deity being the god/goddess of your undead druid. You'll simply have to give a deep backstory for 'why' the deity has done such a thing, what the deity expects, the contingencies the deity has if his/her subject doesn't fulfill the deities purpose etc. etc. It's a heavy burden you're putting on this character, so there must be alot of thought put into it, so that your character isn't rendered into mere novelty.
Cheers. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:18:49
I personally don't see unnatural undead perversions and druid treehuggers being at all compatible, I would personally suspect that any druid who became undead would lose his class abilities entirely.
Although, having said that, D&D is a game built upon wonderful exceptions to the rule. In my mind Malar would be the most suitable choice for such a character because his interests lie in savage and bestial things, although Talos would be a good choice (as explained above by Galuf) and one might even argue that Kelemvor could sustain such strange notions to use as agents who enforce some sort of natural life-and-death balance. Beast cults and "pagan" variations on these or other "mainstream" deities would perhaps be better suited, since they needn't obey the dogma and dictates of the established "orthodox" religion ... your ghoulish druid character might have a very interesting life, perhaps being part of a religion which has but a handful of followers and all sorts of interesting holy missions, wars, and crusades to undertake. A great oppotunity to tweak the druid class and spells a bit, especially if you assert that different abilities are necessary to survive when constantly hunted by mainstream druids.
Another interesting idea might be Shar producing some sort of undead counterpart to Selūne's lycanthropic priesthood. |
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