| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 04:40:45
How exactly do the Dark Eight fit into Hell's Hierarchy? It seems that even arch Dukes - some of the Lords of nine- give them some sway or at least a grudging respect.
Also what's the big secret about the Dark Eight? Are they the run? Are they really angels in disguise? Is it for their own protection? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 02:22:08
It's not a point I care enough about arguing, just a minor detail. The point is that he's the weakest of them. That's established fact; if any of the other eight wanted to take him down, they could. There's no ambiguity there, they've been very clear on it. It's the Dark Eight and Asmodeus that keeps him in power, not his own means. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 01:43:13
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Every source I've read(which is quite a few of them; BoVD, Fiendish Codexes, Manual of the Planes, The Plane Above to list a few) lists him as a pit fiend; a very powerful pit fiend, but still just a pit fiend. They do mention he's in the process of absorbing his predecessor's power and again, that he's more than the average pit fiend, but he isn't a unique arch devil yet. No one's debating him being the lord of the first, but being a lord and being an archdevil are two different things; to be an archdevil is to be a unique creature of considerable power. There are dozens of archdevils, most exiles who've fallen out of favor and live in Avernus, or who've been cast to the outer torments that orbit Baator. Bel is unique, or at least rare, in that he is a lord without being an archdevil(yet).
He's an archdevil IMO based on the various sources, albeit arguably the least powerful of them, though the terminology used to describe him makes it an arguable point. The descriptor of him as a pit fiend or ascended pit fiend IMO refers more to his status as having risen up the conventional ranks of the Baatezu rather than originating among the diabolic nobility, or been appointed to the position by Asmodeus from origins outside of Hell.
Beyond what a pit fiend could do, for instance he has been described as having avatars. In their description he has multiple forms beyond that of an exalted pit fiend (see Colin McComb's 2e article on the Lords of the 9 in Dragon magazine for instance). |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 00:31:28
Well, again, this goes back to that thing I mentioned earlier; virtually all info on Baator and those that dwell there for 4e have been for points of light, the core setting. Not Greyhawk, not the Realms, a whole new setting. Even saying they want to keep the same basic cast of characters, they're not bound by any timeline constraints here, they could have moved it forward with impunity. With the realms, at least, the 100 year jump is enough time to move at least some of those plots forward, especially considering most of them had, in the fluff, been boiling for centuries already. |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 00:04:30
quote:
Probably the thing that disappointed me the most about 4e is the fact that they didn't move any of the archdevils forward at all; Bel is still a pit fiend leeching power, Belial's still tiptoeing around the friendship between his daughter and Glasya, Glasya hasn't made a move against Levestius yet, and Levestius is still trapped in a block of ice. Only Mephestopholes got any progression, summed up by "he's got his hand on some divine power and may pose a threat to Asmodeus". Hell, even Greyon, an exile, has gotten more progession to his story than seven of the lords of the nine.
What do you expect? They lived for milions of years, will live untill eternity, and their simplest schemes strech through millenia! It's normal that such things take time in Baator. :P |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:38:38
Every source I've read(which is quite a few of them; BoVD, Fiendish Codexes, Manual of the Planes, The Plane Above to list a few) lists him as a pit fiend; a very powerful pit fiend, but still just a pit fiend. They do mention he's in the process of absorbing his predecessor's power and again, that he's more than the average pit fiend, but he isn't a unique arch devil yet. No one's debating him being the lord of the first, but being a lord and being an archdevil are two different things; to be an archdevil is to be a unique creature of considerable power. There are dozens of archdevils, most exiles who've fallen out of favor and live in Avernus, or who've been cast to the outer torments that orbit Baator. Bel is unique, or at least rare, in that he is a lord without being an archdevil(yet). |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:23:04
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
He's more than a pit fiend but less than an archdevil. He's in a transitional state, and isn't quite up to ascending yet.
Depends on the source you're looking at. I want to say that the BoVD downgraded him to being just a powerful pit fiend, versus other sources which have him as an ascended pit fiend.
I'd firmly place him as Lord of the 1st, not just a powerful pit fiend. Though he owes some massive political favors to Dagos of the Dark 8, and the Sign of One as well. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:13:17
quote:
And as for Bel, while he may have started out as just a pit fiend, he's something more than that now. His control over Avernus isn't as solid as how his peers might control their own layers, but it's increasing as he slowly consumes Zariel's essence.
He's more than a pit fiend but less than an archdevil. He's in a transitional state, and isn't quite up to ascending yet.
Probably the thing that disappointed me the most about 4e is the fact that they didn't move any of the archdevils forward at all; Bel is still a pit fiend leeching power, Belial's still tiptoeing around the friendship between his daughter and Glasya, Glasya hasn't made a move against Levestius yet, and Levestius is still trapped in a block of ice. Only Mephestopholes got any progression, summed up by "he's got his hand on some divine power and may pose a threat to Asmodeus". Hell, even Greyon, an exile, has gotten more progession to his story than seven of the lords of the nine. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 18:35:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
- ZIMIMAR, Minister of Morale
I really have to wonder about this one. Building morale in the Nine Hells is an interesting (and frightening!) concept.
Indeed, it is.
Consider a female baatezu that had to do a truth-juggle, keeping all the different lies and deceits straight in her head, lest she succumb, too, to all of the propaganda spilled out by herself unto the rest of her kind. It reminds me, somewhat, of George Orwell's 1984.
Building morale for the fiendish hordes, while weaving through such think bounds of the untruths and neverweres that underpin the entirety of baatezu society, I think, takes a degree of control and manipulative skill that few mortals could truly ever achieve. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 15:02:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
- ZIMIMAR, Minister of Morale
I really have to wonder about this one. Building morale in the Nine Hells is an interesting (and frightening!) concept. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 05:25:53
Generally speaking, the Lords of the 9 rule their own respective layers of Baator, but it's the Dark 8 as a group that controls every aspect of the Baatorian effort in the Blood War, promotions and demotions, intelligence, etc. They're the independant ministers with broader goals in mind, the Lords of the 9 the kings of 8 kingdoms feeding that war effort, and Asmodeus the one over them all, with the Dark 8 in essence proxies of his to ensure the Blood War isn't held captive to the politics of the Lords of the 9.
And as for Bel, while he may have started out as just a pit fiend, he's something more than that now. His control over Avernus isn't as solid as how his peers might control their own layers, but it's increasing as he slowly consumes Zariel's essence. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 23:13:45
The 4e cosmology divides the planes into the divine realms of the Astral Sea, known as The Planes Above, or Heaven(though it includes the divine realms of most evil gods, including Baator), and the Elemental Chaos, or Elemental Tempest, also known as the Plane Below. Where as the Astral Sea is mostly orderly with clearly defined and permanent realms(each of finite size), the Elemental Chaos is just that, eternal swirling chaos of elemental energy with hardly any permanent features; one of the few it does have is the Abyss, which takes the form of a whirlpool of evil at the very bottom of the plane.
Part of the problem with determining the political situation in regards to Avernus, Bel, and the Dark Eight in the aftermath of the Blood War is that most 4e information on Baator is given in the points of light core setting, where the war isn't over, it's just on one of it's cool periods and could flare up again at any moment. It's only "over" in the Realms. |
| Calmar |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 23:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Don't get me wrong. I rather like Bel. He's competent, cunning, and loyal to the crown. Just an objective fact that he is the weakest of the Lords of the Nine.
He's not a pawn of the Dark Eight; its a mutually benificial arangement they have. He is a pawn of Asmodeus, though. Because, well, all devils are pawns of Asmodeus. The question is, now that the Blood War is over(apparently, at least), there will be a reassessment of just how valuable Bel and the Dark Eight are. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll get the axe(literally or figuratively), just that the situation will be looked at.
You are of course correct. 
I don't know much about the events in the new cosmology, but I wouldn't assume that the devils get lazy because their great war is over. The Blood War is the explanation why the fiends can't endanger the multiverse with their full might - when you take that away the devils are free to raise hell wherever they please.
One might assume the demons might behave likewise but that'd start the whole mess all over again - and apparently that's not how things are supposed to work nowadays...  So, I assume the tanar'ri might claim another sphere of influence and wreak some havoc there for good.
Avernus has always been the staging ground for campaigns and operations on Gehenna and the Gray Waste / the Barrens of Doom and Deapair and the Blood Rift.* Without a nasty war of attrition going on, I'd imagine the devils will score many victories against whomever they may need to crush - which in turn might shine back on the B. 
Are them Great Tree- Planes still around in 4E land, or do they use the original ones again?  |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 21:13:34
Don't get me wrong. I rather like Bel. He's competent, cunning, and loyal to the crown. Just an objective fact that he is the weakest of the Lords of the Nine.
He's not a pawn of the Dark Eight; its a mutually benificial arangement they have. He is a pawn of Asmodeus, though. Because, well, all devils are pawns of Asmodeus. The question is, now that the Blood War is over(apparently, at least), there will be a reassessment of just how valuable Bel and the Dark Eight are. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll get the axe(literally or figuratively), just that the situation will be looked at. |
| Calmar |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 20:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
As for their backing of Bel, one needs to remember that Bel isn't even an archdevil; just a very powerful pit fiend who managed to grab a title. Far and away the weakest of the Lords of the Nine, he holds his position out of having support from the Eight and Asmodeus, which in turn he gets for the simple reason of being good at his job as a general in the Blood War. Again, a situation that may very well shift in the near future.
Depends on whom you ask... According to the Factols Manifesto he owes the Sign of One a big favour for their positive influence on his career.
Besides, I don't think Bel is somekind of a pawn for anyone. He's the embodinemt of the Infernal Dream, a top-class selfmade-devil who worked his way upwards through the ranks from a lowly lemure to the mighty ruler of a whole layer of Baator. He's clever enough to realise when he isn't the biggest frog in the pond, and he possesses the cunning to play his cards in order to gain an advantage. Bel is not the type of villain who overestimates his own power, nor does he underestimate his adversaries.
Bel the Pit Fiend in an inspiration for every malevolent spirit on the lawful side of the lower planes!  |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 17:47:49
Sun Tzu said in his Art of War that the enlightened general must be free to conduct war without the constraints of his leaders. With this in mind, the Dark Eight have been given considerable leeway to better conduct the Blood War against an unpredictable and innumberable adversary.
Now that the Blood War is over(in the realms, at least), one could expect that situation to change.
As for their backing of Bel, one needs to remember that Bel isn't even an archdevil; just a very powerful pit fiend who managed to grab a title. Far and away the weakest of the Lords of the Nine, he holds his position out of having support from the Eight and Asmodeus, which in turn he gets for the simple reason of being good at his job as a general in the Blood War. Again, a situation that may very well shift in the near future. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 17:43:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Here's some basic info on the Dark Eight which, as I recall, was put together by noted PLANESCAPE-scribe Rip Van Wormer:-
quote:
- BAALZEPHON, the Minister of Supply, is one of the two most ancient surviving members of the Eight, and the one who remains most free of entanglements with Baator's nobility. Baalzephon believes she most purely serves the purpose for which the Dark Eight were created, reducing the power of the Lords of the Nine.
- PEARZA is the Minister of Research.
The first Pearza is said to have been torn apart by maelephants, shortly after their creation. The second Pearza was shamed after he created the blood fiends, originally an attempt to create a disease that would wipe out the tanar'ri. The third Pearza was killed in an explosion in her workshop in Nessus, cause unknown. The fourth Pearza lives on, its mind held within a crystalline golem's body. The fifth Pearza, who had won fame as creator of a sweets factory in Minauros, was lost to the ice of Cania, led astray by the Lady Baalphegor.
- Perhaps the most ambitious of the Eight, the treacherous ZAEBOS is the Minster of Promotions. Zaebos appears as a stern-faced, humorless man; he is hairless, with skin of slate gray. He wears a formal suit, and keeps a crocodile as a pet. The crocodile is said to contain the spirit of his predecessor, the Sweet Soldier.
- ZAPAN, the minister of immortal relations, is as suave as Dagos is crude and intimidating. The original zapan is believed to have served no less than three Lords of the Nine before being recruited by Cantrum.
- DAGOS is probably the best known of all the Dark Eight, although he is also the least accessible. He does not appear publicly like Zimmimar does, but then again, he isn't replaced nearly as frequently. It would not do to replace the Marshall of the Pits, and the commander-in-chief of the Baatorian armies too often.
- CORIN, Spymaster. "Corin" is a name that few people would dare to speak aloud. Corin is the Watching Eye and the Alert Ear, He Who Never Sleeps, the Eavesdropping Shadow, and is still known by many names.
- FURCAS, Minister of Mortal Relations
- ZIMIMAR, Minister of Morale
Thx! Intriguing info. Does one need to be a Pit fiend to become one of the Dark Eight? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 14:43:04
Here's some basic info on the Dark Eight which, as I recall, was put together by noted PLANESCAPE-scribe Rip Van Wormer:-
quote:
- BAALZEPHON, the Minister of Supply, is one of the two most ancient surviving members of the Eight, and the one who remains most free of entanglements with Baator's nobility. Baalzephon believes she most purely serves the purpose for which the Dark Eight were created, reducing the power of the Lords of the Nine.
- PEARZA is the Minister of Research.
The first Pearza is said to have been torn apart by maelephants, shortly after their creation. The second Pearza was shamed after he created the blood fiends, originally an attempt to create a disease that would wipe out the tanar'ri. The third Pearza was killed in an explosion in her workshop in Nessus, cause unknown. The fourth Pearza lives on, its mind held within a crystalline golem's body. The fifth Pearza, who had won fame as creator of a sweets factory in Minauros, was lost to the ice of Cania, led astray by the Lady Baalphegor.
- Perhaps the most ambitious of the Eight, the treacherous ZAEBOS is the Minster of Promotions. Zaebos appears as a stern-faced, humorless man; he is hairless, with skin of slate gray. He wears a formal suit, and keeps a crocodile as a pet. The crocodile is said to contain the spirit of his predecessor, the Sweet Soldier.
- ZAPAN, the minister of immortal relations, is as suave as Dagos is crude and intimidating. The original zapan is believed to have served no less than three Lords of the Nine before being recruited by Cantrum.
- DAGOS is probably the best known of all the Dark Eight, although he is also the least accessible. He does not appear publicly like Zimmimar does, but then again, he isn't replaced nearly as frequently. It would not do to replace the Marshall of the Pits, and the commander-in-chief of the Baatorian armies too often.
- CORIN, Spymaster. "Corin" is a name that few people would dare to speak aloud. Corin is the Watching Eye and the Alert Ear, He Who Never Sleeps, the Eavesdropping Shadow, and is still known by many names.
- FURCAS, Minister of Mortal Relations
- ZIMIMAR, Minister of Morale
|
| jordanz |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 13:56:48
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
How exactly do the Dark Eight fit into Hell's Hierarchy? It seems that even arch Dukes - some of the Lords of nine- give them some sway or at least a grudging respect.
Also what's the big secret about the Dark Eight? Are they the run? Are they really angels in disguise? Is it for their own protection?
I see it thus: The Dark Eight are a valuable group, responsible for all the grand strategems in play against the hordes of the Abyss. They are veterans of millenia of the Blood War, cunning beyond compare, evil beyond doubt and personally powerful even beyond the means of an 'average' Balor. It is also true that they have yet to produce a meaningful victory, and that the hells are a hotbed (pun intended) of treachery, backstabbing, and social climbing. So why (given these facts) are the D8 still in command? My answer is that they are the next in line to be promoted to 'royalty' in the hellish hierarchy. Since they are 'due a promotion', the Archdevils keep them occupied, satisfied, and exposed to criticism, failure, and intrigue by leaving them in their current position, while freeing themselves of the need to take a direct hand in the ongoing war, when they are *really* most interested int the IMPORTANT things. Like staying in office, or getting the rights to exploit the adamantium on the 4th layer, or legitimizing their personal agenda through works that benefit all devils....
In other words, the Dark 8 are the witting dupes of the Archdukes, and know what failure means. But they also know that success and patience mean sure promotion to the True Power that they have coveted for thousands and thousands of thousands of years. They only need to persevere to get what they want...
Their transparent need for power is not unnoticed by the Arch Dukes, who know how to abuse such a culture.
Thanks but are they really witting dupes? I was reading somewhere that it is speculated that Bel is able to keep his rule over the 1st layer (despite his relative weakness to the other arch dukes)because he has the backing of the Dark 8. Sounds like they would have to be more than just dupes to command that level of respect...
I red somewhere that they reported directly to Asmdeus? Also who are they, are there names kept secret? Is their membership static? |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 10:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
How exactly do the Dark Eight fit into Hell's Hierarchy? It seems that even arch Dukes - some of the Lords of nine- give them some sway or at least a grudging respect.
Also what's the big secret about the Dark Eight? Are they the run? Are they really angels in disguise? Is it for their own protection?
I see it thus: The Dark Eight are a valuable group, responsible for all the grand strategems in play against the hordes of the Abyss. They are veterans of millenia of the Blood War, cunning beyond compare, evil beyond doubt and personally powerful even beyond the means of an 'average' Balor. It is also true that they have yet to produce a meaningful victory, and that the hells are a hotbed (pun intended) of treachery, backstabbing, and social climbing. So why (given these facts) are the D8 still in command? My answer is that they are the next in line to be promoted to 'royalty' in the hellish hierarchy. Since they are 'due a promotion', the Archdevils keep them occupied, satisfied, and exposed to criticism, failure, and intrigue by leaving them in their current position, while freeing themselves of the need to take a direct hand in the ongoing war, when they are *really* most interested int the IMPORTANT things. Like staying in office, or getting the rights to exploit the adamantium on the 4th layer, or legitimizing their personal agenda through works that benefit all devils....
In other words, the Dark 8 are the witting dupes of the Archdukes, and know what failure means. But they also know that success and patience mean sure promotion to the True Power that they have coveted for thousands and thousands of thousands of years. They only need to persevere to get what they want...
Their transparent need for power is not unnoticed by the Arch Dukes, who know how to abuse such a culture. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 06:28:18
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
How exactly do the Dark Eight fit into Hell's Hierarchy? It seems that even arch Dukes - some of the Lords of nine- give them some sway or at least a grudging respect.
Also what's the big secret about the Dark Eight? Are they the run? Are they really angels in disguise? Is it for their own protection?
They are the High Command of the Blood War I thought...given special leeway in their carrying out of that struggle. |
|
|
