| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 00:49:36
Wouldn't it be prevalent in his clergy and faithful dueto what his dogma is amd what he stands for? Also, wouldn't it makes according to how most males felt, those that are in his clergy and faithful? Are there any female Vhaeraun clerics BTW? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 15:16:11
Well said '-' |
| Laerrigan |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 02:48:15
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's very difficult to believe someone can be asexual.
It's entirely possible, for psychological and/or hormonal reasons. My character has always been largely (not absolutely) asexual---or, more to the point as Lady Fellshot suggested, not interested in sex---due at least in part to things done to him in his early years. He also seems to simply have less of the hormonal influence than many (if not most) people. On the rare occasions when he takes an interest, it's driven by attraction to the inner person more than the body, and could involve a male, female, or whatever else the infinite variety of the Realms could throw at him. (Not that he has no appreciation for the physical, merely that it isn't a driving or selective force in any case). I'm not sure he'd qualify for a bisexual label, he's more sex-ignoring.
But, somewhat more on the evolving topic for this scroll, none of that has anything to do with his choice of deity, except perhaps to exclude from consideration deities devoted to lust/reproduction. He is very much an Oghmanyte because...well...the dogma fits him to a T. I say this in support of all Alystra's said about deity-selection being a matter of personality, passions in life, priorities, philosphy; sexual orientation or lack of interest, one would think, would only have any impact if one is considering a deity explicitly interested in reproduction. A deity interested in expansion of the faith/race through reproduction (not in reproduction for its own philosophical sake) shouldn't have any problem with a strictly-homosexual follower "doing his duty" when needed---perhaps even to subjugate, as stated---and then going back to his own preference. Heck, such a follower could perhaps please such a deity simply by being involved in spreading the faith and the influence of the race by non-reproductive means, so long as they're effective. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 16:08:53
You had me laughing when you mentioned RuPaul...I can see Jarlaxle doing that. Also, Drizzt=giant black cat that eats things. Jarlaxle=giant birt with lots of feathers.
I can definitely agree with you about a sect of Lathander's worshippers in that regard...I would wonder how well such a sect would be seen by Lathander, however. An aspect of the Realms not well covered in most books (Jim Lowder is an obvious exception) is what happens when people fall out of favor with their deities. Would another god who supports such activities clandestinly grant divine magic? This is what Talos did for Ruha in Crucible and it really angered Mystra until she figured out what was happening. Ironically, she never challenged Talos on it.
Until then, I'm going to picture Jarlaxle running around after his birds collecting feathers so he can make a boa...
A young magling once miscast a Charm spell upon himself and became so enamored with mirrors I was forced to grant him to Sune's church...
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 04:50:37
I was going with Lathander's aspect of "purity" of the sun and healing, on that one. I could see a sect that was devoted to keeping their thoughts and bodies "bright, untainted by decay or corruption" as abstaining. mind you, it would probably be a fringe sect, but possible, all the same.
Gromph. He's one that I really don't see as having tendencies toward homosexuality. Mainly because he's stogy enough to keep his nose clean, as it were (not doing anything to overtly tick off the priestesses), and because there's simply no evidence for it. The only mentions of his love life at all seem to involve priestesses, (Liriel's mother, though it's hinted that she's not the first.) and beyond that, he doesn't seem overly concerned with it other than as a mild amusement to pass time. In other words, he's old enough (over 800, IIRC) to not be as interested anymore, but has obviously had many lovers over the centuries. due to his unique position, however, he was able to pick and choose- and he seems to have an eye for attractive females. That in itself should say something. I suppose that it IS possible, but we just haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise, so I'm assuming he's straight.
Now, I've gotten teat vibe from Jarlaxle on more than one occasion, and honestly, it makes me chuckle. Seeing a character who has such odd habits and erm- "fashion sense" thumbing his nose at the Matrons so often makes me smile. He's like Ru-Paul telling the ladies- "Oh no, girlfriend- you di'n't! SNAP!!" Kidding. But his clearly meddling tendencies with others just sort of throws up a big rainbow flag to me. And then there's that cape and hat..... Tell me those are not intended as much to throw people for a mental loop as much as for their magic. The average person meeting him would look at those and go, "Okay! FOP!!!" and would then VASTLY underestimate his devious mind. Which is probably exactly what he intends. I also seem to remember his boots and several pieces of jewelry serving similar purposes. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 04:21:12
I almost always agree with you, Alystra, but here I'd like to challenge a couple of assumptions because I'm interested in your thoughts...
It's certainly possible for a gay drow male to impregnate a female. He may do so to debase or demean her, but he could have a "primary" relationship with a male. Again, I wouldn't think Vaerhaun would care as long as his ideals are espoused.
I don't discount your statement of Elaine's masterful treatment of Gromph, but I just wonder if one lived for centuries if one might have multiple lovers of both sexes? I've always felt the elves are a little bit too amorous in a lot of literature (both D&D and non-D&D alike) but if not homosexual, perhaps he's bisexual. I really would not wager much on Gromph, but he tends to buck traditions.
Bob Salvatore would have to flat out tell me that Jarlaxle's not gay, although I suspect he'd rather keep me guessing. I don't deny he has friends, but I just find the character written well as a strong gay character when I read him: something I've never received with any other character of Bob's.
I would think that Lolth would smile upon traitorous priestesses, if only because it foments chaos. The authors of the War of the Spider Queen really had some good insight in this, and especially the interplay with Eilistraee's faithful, too. I have to admit that I'm somewhat surprised that Lolth has allowed House Baerne to remain dominant in Menzoberranzan for so long as it's a little bit too...boring...for her, I would think.
Again, I don't really thing most deities care about this topic; a deity is meant to promote the Balance as decreed by Ao. Ed may not have created Ao, but the concept of the Balance is definitely in all of the sourcebooks that deal with deities. Selûne/Shar, Tymora/Beshaba, Bane/Torm, Ilmater/Loviatar, even Gond/Mystra (on some levels). Sune's portfolio is "Beauty, Love, Passion." Anything that furthers those causes, as I see it, would be something she would promote. It's just not in the portfolios of most deities. Sharess is about "sensual fulfillment" (amongst other things) but her Dogma (3E F&P) reads in part...quote:
That which is good is pleasurable and that which is pleasurable is good...Infinite experiences await those who would explore, so try the new as well as savoring the old."
Hanali Celanil has "Love, romance, beauty..." with no restrictions on sexuality. Again, though, just as I doubt a worshipper of Sune would be "The High Lustmaster of Heterosexuality" I don't see the gods as focusing on this particular aspect at all. As Ed has said on other scrolls, he expects mortals to pray to numerous deities. So after a particularly good time betwixt the sheets, one might exlaim, "By Sune that was amazing!" I really think that's where this topic begins and ends.
I can see Torm's followeds embracing abstinence in some areas, but as Lathander has "birth" in his portfolio, I would be surprised if he ever actively promoted abstinence in his faithful. A portfolio that includes "vitality" and "creativity" (a loaded word, to be certain) is something I just can't get around as it seems almost opposite of what Lathander portrays. Although not on this topic, I would be curious if infertile people seek treatment via divine spells from Lathander's clergy. I can add that to my long list of queued questions for Ed.
Of course, my specialty is wizards, mages, spellcasters in general, and Monks of the Shining Order. What do I know?
I once got in an argument with Mask and it took me two years to realize he had left and I was just arguing with my shadow..."
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 03:49:16
And he's right. Most of them don't. That said, given Vaerhaun's dogma and views, a homosexual male in his following might not be seen as favorably as one who actively increased his following through offspring. Apparently, many Vaerhaunite communities seem to have harems of breeding females of various elven races, or occasionally even humans, for that purpose, and the followers are encouraged to use them frequently. I got this from the description of one such camp in Daughter of the Drow- the small group to which Nisstyre and Gorlist belonged to. BTW, the priest I was thinking of from that camp was named Henge. Just remembered it. All three even had a discussion in which Nissyre told Gorlist (to Henge's shock and Gorlist's eventual delight) that he would take Liriel for his own harem, and then let Gorlist (his son, BTW) have her afterward to have his revenge on her for a slight earlier in the book.
And to reply to Azuth, it is possible that Jarlaxle is gay, but we know with reasonable certainty that Gromph is NOT. Mainly due to a passage in the very beginning of Daughter of the Drow (love that book- it's so great for ferreting out little bits of drow lore!) where it was mentioned that as Archmage, he had the rare privilege of choosing his own lovers, where most males did not. And lo and behold, whom do we find in his bedchamber? Liriel's soon-to-be-deceased mother, who was known as a rare beauty even among drow women. This after she had clearly been his lover for SEVERAL years. He is also described as having had otherlesser priestesses as lovers, so it's fairly safe to assume that he's not homosexual.
Jarlaxle, on the other hand, has always been an enigma in that respect. His relationships with Artemis and Drizzt (maybe even Zaknafein, but we'll likely never know) have always seems to border on flirtatious, or perhaps as man-crushes, but also as real friendship. He keeps everyone guessing, maybe because he himself does not know.
Also, the question of whether there are female clergy of Vaerhaun has been answered before. Yes, there are, they are the Masked Traitors who pretend to worship Lolth on the surface, but are loyal to Vaerhaun underneath, using their connection to Lolth to impart information to their allies of the Masked Lord, and to subvert others to Vaerhaun's following. Shakti Hunzrin from the Starlight and Shadows trilogy was one, and there are others listed among drow NPC's of the Realms. (Zanan has a link to this list in her profile, I believe.) There is also a PrC to create such a traitor priestess, although it has the caveat that being discovered by Lolth's faithful as spy and heretic is cause for death. There is no such thing as a FORMER Masked Traitor. Mainly because former ones are all dead.
The interesting thing about this topic is that we really don't know the views of most deities on the subject. However, there are probably plenty of paladin and monk orders that foster abstinence and chastity in their members, so a lack of interest in sex or a completely asexual outlook may not be as hard to imagine as one would think. It may even be fairly common among paladins of orders devoted to purity of mind and body. (Torm or Lathander in particular come to mind.) And form a game mechanic standpoint, the Vow of Chastity or Vow of Abstinence feats might be used for such characters, to describe their piety and devotion to the idea of remaining celibate to focus on their service to their church. (Much like Catholic priests are supposed to be.) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 11:01:36
The reason I asked this is because I want to make a cleric of Vhaeraun and am working on his story.
I don't think any of the gods (most of them at least) would give a hoot about a character's sexuality.
Nice answer Azuth ;) |
| Azuth |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 06:22:44
A lot of comments, for what they're worth: take them as you will.
First, as Scribe has stated (repeatedly in Candlekeep), Ed has said that his editors/publishers have cut all attempts of his to write gay men into books. He has never denied that gay characters exist, so with that as a starting point...
I read many Sci-Fi/Fantasy books. None of the mainstream series have tackled gay characters. While I thoroughly enjoy the discussions here on Candlekeep, let us remember that a great majority of society is conservative; that's changing, thankfully, but the businesses cater to the market, with great margins of safety. If Ed can tell a story without a controversial character, they cut said character.
TW, I believe you're trying to ascertain which deity not only condones homosexuality, but actually promotes it. The answers as I see them are Sune, Sharess, and Helani Celanil. Any god of love promotes love/lust. There is nothing in the published dogma of Sune that says she only promotes lust between heterosexuals. I am certain that other pantheons have gods of love as well, although I'm admittedly less familiar with them. If two drow male get a sweat worked up and get all hot and bothered, Sune and Helani both want to take credit. Reproduction is probably more Chauntea and Lathander's domain. Also, what if two gay drow followers of Vhaeraun steal a child from a family of Lolth's worshippers and "adopt" him or her? That's expanding the faith, assuming they continue to promote the dogma of Vhaeraun.
If ever there were a character who screamed "gay" to me, it would undoubtedly be Jarlaxle Baerne, in Bob Salvatore's books. I can't recall which deity he worships, although I'm pretty sure he'd pick Waukeen if given a true choice. Gromph Baerne has a way about him, too...but Jarlaxle has my coin. It is important to remember that the deities are created to foster an aspect of life in society. Loviatar foments torture of any kind; she doesn't care a whit about sexuality, just as Ilmater hates torture of any kind without any prejudices of a similar nature. Tyr is about justice (he'd have a thing or two to say about our laws, but I digress...) thus if it doesn't concern justice, it doesn't concern Tyr. If you've read Prince of Lies and/or Crucible then you'll see this as what Oghma was trying to explain to Mystra and Kelemvor.
Or, put another way, it's like trying to sell water to Kossuth: its anathema to him. I would say that, with respect to asexual characters, Sune, Helani, etc. would find them repulsive as they don't create passion (and I'm not going down the road of self pleasure). I doubt that Toril as a whole would care much about asexual beings...it's not really a topic of everyday conversation, so one is unlikely to be "discovered" as asexual. I wouldn't be surprised if some monastic orders practice some form of sexual repression, though. Ed could say for certain, obviously.
To answer your question, you need to determine what is important to the drow male in question. Does he focus on his sexual activities above all else? If so, one of the gods of love or passion would be his choice. If he is a gay drow who gets aroused by battle, Selvetarm may be his choice. If he's an assain, then Vhaeraun makes a perfect choice, but his lover may be a wizard who dabbles in necromancy and venerates Kiaransalee. Again, focus on the worshipper, not the god. Which also answers your question about female clergy of Vhaeraun. There's nothing that says a female couldn't venerate him, but as to whether or not she would receive divine magic, that's another issue entirely.
I return, now, to fostering minds to focus on magecraft, regardless of sexuality, ethnicity, skin color, age, or alignment. Such is my charge in the Pantheon.  |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 22:07:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's very difficult to believe someone can be asexual.
Me too lol. I wonder how an asexual would be viewed by Vhaeraun. No wait, Toril. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 20:57:52
What about simply not interested in sex rather than "asexual"? Asexual brings to mind protozoans. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 13:10:15
It's very difficult to believe someone can be asexual. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
It would be interesting to learn why a character is asexual. Maybe a character (either gender) could stir an emotional and physical attra ction back up to that character so they could be [blank]sexual.
Mmmm... [blank] on [blank] action!
 |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 01:32:26
It would be interesting to learn why a character is asexual. Maybe a character (either gender) could stir an emotional and physical attra ction back up to that character so they could be [blank]sexual. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 01:18:01
To each his/her own. Like I said, it could go either way. But I like to think that there are more than JUST hetro/homo folks in the Realms. A character who is neither seems more interesting to me- I'd be very curious to know the story behind why a person would choose that route. More so than if he was actually a homosexual. That's too obvious and clicheed for my tastes. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 23:26:14
I don't feel like one of the girls. I'm just me lol. Granted I could talk to other girls about stuff that would make a hetero guy squeal XD We COULD always ask Elaine Cunningham by what she meant. But I like my perception of it :D lol |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 23:02:00
Well, I was speaking of the character specifically. There are men in the world who want nothing to do with females at all. Freud might have some theories about that. Did not mean to imply that gay men hate women at all. In fact, I think they tend to feel more like "one of the girls" more often than not. Which is really the opposite of that. Being drow, I can see how a male who spends his entire life being oppressed, beaten, etc by women might grow to hate the opposite gender, even if he is not actually interested in other males. It could go either way, really. One hand, a drow might turn to his own gender for lovin; the other hand, he might swear off sex altogether! (Can't trust the other males, either, after all....) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 21:18:43
I wasn't saying homos hated women ll, I mean, almost all of my friends are girls XD. But I guess it's just the way you want to interpret it :) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 20:28:25
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Or he could like men ;) And that excerpt from windwalker makes sense!!
He might, but that doesn't HAVE to be the case. Not everyone who hates women is homosexual. Some are simply mysoganists. Remember the story of Pygmalion? He hated all women because he felt they were cruel and decietful. So he carved a statue of the "perfect" woman, who could never be untrue. (And then Aphrodite went and made her real. But that's beside the point.) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 11:05:14
Or he could like men ;) And that excerpt from windwalker makes sense!! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 05:25:54
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
Come to think of it, are there any gay male characters in any FR novels/game products? I don't think so.
Ed has discussed the topic during past replies here at Candlekeep. Just search the "So Saith Ed" archives [see the link in my signature].
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| Darsson Spellmaker |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 05:23:00
Come to think of it, are there any gay male characters in any FR novels/game products? I don't think so.
There are some female bi/lesbian characters in FR; Quenthel Baenre, comes to mind, as does the goddess Llira, and some female leader in the FRCS who has a female consort.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:31:49
He might have just been a mysoganist.... It happens. One does not have to be HOMO-sexual to hate women. One could also be ASEXUAL. (ie- none at all.) |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:01:19
But what about the priest who wanted nothing to do withfemales at all? :D |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 01:54:54
I'm not sure if that means their orientation, though. I've read Windwalker- and the entire series- multiple times, but none of the Vaerhaunite characters ever struck me as being that way. Nisstyere and Gorlist certainly weren't, as noted earlier, and I don't recall their priest(forgot his name) being one either. It might just refer to their preference for "hanging out" with other males, not actually bedding them. Course, I could be wrong- we'd have to ask Elaine about that. I suspect it was more for the company, however. Drow women are known to be real (b)witches! |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 16:52:08
Ooooo interesting. Mwahahahaha!!! |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 14:01:42
As a quick note, in Windwalker, in the beginning of Chapter 6, it is stated that "followers of Vhaer[a]un preferred the company of other males. Brindlor [a deathsinger of Vhaer[a]un] wanted nothing to do with females under any circumstances." If I rememeber correctly, this is repeated and underscored in the following chapters of this book. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 12:00:35
I actually read about your characters and found them quite interesting. How did Morganna's mother get captured in the first place? I thnk Hanali Celanil and Sune would bw good ones too. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 05:53:06
Loviatar might be another good choice. I suppose it really depends on the BELIEFS of the drow male in question. I'll give you an example of what I mean- I'll use my two sibling PC's to illustrate.
Lothir is the only son and Heir of his family's house, which is male-ruled, but with a fairly strong presence of Lolth's clergy through his mother's side. (His father rose in the ranks of the house to Weapon Master, then led a coup against the leading females of the family with his loyal soldiers and several of the House mages. He gave the priestesses the choice of following him or death. Those who refused were slain, leaving mostly only some junior priestesses and one or two of the Noble women alive- including Lothir's mother- and they do not dare try to retaliate openly.) His father also led an alliance of disaffected males both noble and common in a massive uprising against the priestesses of no less than forty houses in five cities, several of them among the top eight of their cities. Thus, his family now rules as First House of all five cities combined, through various agreements with the other males of the coalition. Basically, this means that Lothir is now effectively first in line for his father's newly made throne.
In spite of this, he was still treated like any other male in his homeland whenever outside his own House. Matrons could (and DID) still order him to do anything they wished, as his sire recognized the wisdom in allowing the Matrons who remained to keep their edicts of Lolth. This means that they could still command males who were outside the safety and security of their homes, or those who were within their own families. So when he went off to the Academy, the young "prince" found himself quite frequently ordered to *ahem* serve various priestesses who crossed his path. After years of this kind of double-standard treatment, he grew sick of it, and along with his budding faith in the Dark Maiden (whom he had secretly encountered during a trip to the surface) he eventually fled. (There's more to it, like a love-interest who was sacrificed along with two unborn children by his own mother, but...) However, he still feels a great deal of respect for women (drummed in at an early age by mommy dearest under threat of whips) and has no interest in his own gender, in spite of advances from several males over the years. (A classmate who actually had a "thing" for him.)
ON THE OTHER HAND- His half-sister Morganna- who was born to a surface-elf slave woman in his father's harem (who was the murdered love-interest)- is utterly different. She is only half-drow by blood and birth, so is not even considered a noble. She is also quite contemptuous of her "weak, soft" mother, and long ago decided that no one would ever control or dominate her, especially in that way. Thus she became very cold, cruel, and domineering herself, arrogant in her belief in her own superiority. She has daddy issues, because she's illegitimate and not in line to rule even though she is older than her brother. She also looks down on anyone who is not drow, and on males especially, since she has seen the Lady and other females of the House acting thusly. However, she is also highly promiscuous, and does whatever she feels like, simply because no one seems able to stop her. She is in the habit of killing her lovers, mostly because she feels contempt for them, and has no qualms about going either way (though she does in fact prefer males). NMorganna's bloodthirsty ways, domineering attitude, and lack of respect for anything weaker than herself (everyone, according to her) led her to follow Tiamat, since the only thing she can respect is dragons. She hates her "weak" brother, and would dearly love to kill him, if it were possible. Being able to get her way in most things has made her hard and vicious, but she is also cunning and clever, with a love of poisons and stealth. She's also mentally unstable, unpredictable and capricious, sometimes killing just for the fun of it.
Naturally, Morganna has earned a reputation as a dangerous female, not only to enemies, but especially to those whom she chooses to get close to. However, since she spends much of her time plotting to take her father's place, and has no real authority within the house (much as she would like to think otherwise) most males are safe from her hedonistic and bloodthirsty appetites.
There you have two very different drow, raised in the same House, but with different views. Those views have affected not only their sexuality, but all otehr aspects of their personalities as well, even their choice of deities. One took the path of the "Moondancer", the other follows the Dragon Queen.
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| Aryalómë |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:42:37
I'mspeaking in terms of a male who was scarred bu females in Lolthian societ, plus, there's a good bit of back story too which wold make sense with wat I'm askig otherwise I would have said the exact same thing both of you said.
Sorry for the typos! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:34:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
That's what I really meant in my earlier posts XD What good deities would you suggest for a Drow homo male?
Again, it really does depend on the religious perspectives of the individual drow in question. It's just like asking about what deity would be appropriate for other society groups. There's no right or wrong answer... it's just about whatever deity they most feel comfortable with.
Indeed. We need more data. There is more to any person, real or imagined, than just their sexuality. |
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