| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 10:32:09
just a real quick one:
dwarves get a racial bonus of +1 fighting orcs and goblinoids - justified by the millennia of fighting them.
so, why do the above races not get these bonuses vs dwarves, too?
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 07:10:25
thanks everyone for the feedback |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 19:39:56
The Dwarves in my own world do not get a bonus against Orcs; but only Goblins as the Orcs learned long ago to avoid dwarven lands and concentrated on less fortified targets...whereas the goblins keep trying to sneak into Dwarven Lands.
Then there is a sub-race of Dwarves in my world that gets a +1 against ANYONE in their home territory...but not outside it at all.
I've never made races concrete as they are laid out in the PHB...adapt them anyway you see fit. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 15:46:38
quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Another justification could be due to the longer lifespan of dwarves. <snip>
^THIS^
They have equal hatred, but since Goblinoids rarely even reach adulthood (which happens pretty young in their cases), and then after they do, their mortality rate is around 80% (or more) per year after that, exactly how much experience can they garner before they succumb to the inevitable?
Dwarves, on the other hand, have the equivalent of FIVE human lifetimes (on average) to do what they do best.
Also, a Goblin Ranger can take Dwarves as their favored enemy, which works. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 11:28:21
I really like the idea of this bonus increasing with level, or perhaps through feat selection. Some dwarves hate orcs more than others (though I'd be awfully surprised if they spilled beer). Some dwarven clans might <gasp!> not have this bonus at all, having a minor +1 focus on something else instead.
From PHBR6 Complete Book of Dwarves:quote:
Dwarves do not compromise when dealing with evil races, particularly when competing with them for living space or when their welfare is threatened. Dwarves detest drow, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and evil giants, eradicating them whenever found. Some strongholds are not above ensalving such creatures and forcing them to work in labor camps. Their hatred of evil races is as ancient as the dwarves themselves. Originally, wars were fought to determine who had the right to live underground, but the conflict has spread to the surface. In most game worlds there should be places where dwarves have been driven from their ancient strongholds by orcs, goblins or other creatures of darkness. They now bear a burning and eternal hatred for them. Dwarves have no doubt that they are involved in a war of massive proportions. It is known as the "War to the Death," for the dwarves have sworn to fight until their enemies are destroyed.
Most dwarves gain +1 attack bonus vs orcs, half-orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins (duergar do not). They also gain a -4 defensive AC bonus vs giants, titans, trolls, ogres, and ogre magi. Dwarves in FR novels (namely the Bouldershoulder brothers and sometimes Bruenor) are magnificently coordinated with each other in combat and not above using their small size to duck and weave underfoot (to start cutting tender flesh). The dwarf Elwood Gutworthy from the awful D&D movie is largely useless though he demonstrated a few surprising wrestling takedown moves against a larger opponent. A common mistake for most larger opponents (including humans) is the assumption that dwarves do not move very quickly; few ever make this mistake twice.
Duergar do not gain any bonus against orcs, half-orcs, goblins, or hobgoblins. At the DM's option they may instead gain a bonus against deep dwarves, drow, illithid, kua-toa, trolls, troglodytes, and ghouls.
2E kits and 3E PrCs can add bonuses vs all sorts of creatures. Remember that dwarves are not humans, their psychology is not human, the average dwarf is capable of maintaining a constantly simmering explosive rage while the average human is not.
As mentioned above, this bonus is really only meaningful if you use it a lot. It's an extra 50 dead orcs out of every thousand. Assuming you even need this bonus (that is, your attack/damage isn't already high enough to one-shot-kill every orc you attack anyhow). |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 06:09:04
I remember in the warcraft rpg, orcs and humans(both basic player races) got +1 bonuses against each other; orcs could actually increase it up to +3 through gaining racial levels. The fluff reason was the two had been fighting each other more constantly over the last thirty years(in setting time) than any other races.
Most of the reasons listed here hold up; goblinoids and orcs are more spread out; you're more likely to find a goblin or orc tribe that doesn't fight many dwarves based on geography than you are to find a dwarf that doesn't fight many goblins or orcs based on geography. |
| Delzounblood |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:58:26
I would also add to the above that you cannot forget the unbridled hatred for goblinkind that is part of the dwarven makeup.
They have even been known to spill beer in their haste to fight goblins.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:42:04
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Awesome description, Arik. I almost say that you´re a dwarf. :D
IMO, one reason that the goblinoids don´t receive the same bonus against dwarves is the fact that the goblinoids end hating everything (other goblinoid tribes included).
That's my thinking, as well. Dwarves keep fighting the same enemies over and over, so they learn a few tricks. Gobbies and their kin fight anything on two legs. |
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:15:52
Another justification could be due to the longer lifespan of dwarves. They have a lot longer to gain experience battling goblinkin, develop effective tactics and teach these techniques to their brothers in arms.
Goblins on the other hand die to quickly and squabble to often to effectively come up with good battle tactics against the dwarves. If I remember correctly, hobgoblins, who are inherently better organised than common goblins, get a bonus fighting elves, their hated enemy.
Of course, this explanation swings on the assumption that the attack bonus is supposed to represent a tactical advantage over goblinkin. It could represent the pure rage that fills a dwarf when confronted by goblinkin. Perhaps, as suggested above, goblinkin spend so much time hating everyone they it doesn't really matter whether they're fighting a dwarf, elf, or another goblin. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 15:28:56
Awesome description, Arik. I almost say that you´re a dwarf. :D
IMO, one reason that the goblinoids don´t receive the same bonus against dwarves is the fact that the goblinoids end hating everything (other goblinoid tribes included). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 14:52:51
The bonus is probably due to a lifetime of hatred and, consequently, a lot of aptitude and experience fighting these foes. It's ingrained into the culture, dwarves probably frighten their children with orc bogeyman tales. It's less of a bonus than anger, berserk, or a ranger's species enemy.
Gnomes get (or should get) a similar +1 bonus vs kobolds. Kobolds, for their part, probably get the same bonus vs gnomes. I personally grant this sort of bonus to any race which has a description of endless conflict with another.
From a rules standpoint it's really just flavour. A pithy +1 bonus isn't a game breaker (and largely inconsequential against such wimpy opponents anyways) yet I've never seen a player refuse to grab it whenever he could; ie, this tiny bonus helps encourage PC dwarves to go out of their way to perpetuate conflict with orcs. Just like elves with their little bow and sword bonuses ... I personally grant dwarves +1 attack with axes and hammers, and so the vast majority of my dwarven characters end up choosing those weapons.
The +1 has a significant impact at lowest levels, where every point matters. But it doesn't matter much once ye've reached level 2d4 and picked up some decent equipment, unless perhaps ye go crusading against millions of your hated opponent. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 10:56:10
Probably because goblinoids and Orcs aren't really designed to be PCs races to begin with. That doesn't mean that the bonuses can't be applied to those races for PCs, but I think they'd occur fewer times in most campaings as people tend to play "good-guys" versus "bad-guys". |
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