| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 11:16:43
Something which has puzzled me lately, more so since reading Prince of Lies, is, in a world such as the Realms, how can there be any athiests\non-believers of the gods? Its clear that gods DO exist in the Realms as they appear in manifestations, the Avatar crisis, and with other sources and powers proving that there is "life after death". Why would any being wish to became faithless and have the worst fate upon them when they die?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Trafaldi |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 15:01:47
Good point but i doesnt specify that you would go to some hellish place, the character may end up in limbo or some type of purgatory, personally i think there should be a purgatory for those that are faithless so they can be judged and it can be decided by something or someone where they should go. |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 09:28:03
quote:
Originally posted by Trafaldi
I have played a character that did not follow a deity in a FR campaign. I played him in a sense where he did not follow any of the belief structures. He acknowledged that the gods exsisted he just didnt follow any beliefs, Chaotic nuetral characters in effect should have the greatest chance to be faithless.
Being faithless should mean that you dont follow any of the ideas, or the belief structure. you can still acknowledge the faiths but you dont follow them.
But wouldnt such characters know that they will end up in some hellish place upon their death for being a Faithless. In a world where someone KNOWS that gods exist and know the circumstances of not worshipping a deity, surely they would want to ensure their afterlife will be secured and not end up stuck in the wall of the City of Strife or whereever. |
| Trafaldi |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 15:59:08
I have played a character that did not follow a deity in a FR campaign. I played him in a sense where he did not follow any of the belief structures. He acknowledged that the gods exsisted he just didnt follow any beliefs, Chaotic nuetral characters in effect should have the greatest chance to be faithless.
Being faithless should mean that you dont follow any of the ideas, or the belief structure. you can still acknowledge the faiths but you dont follow them. |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 15:46:16
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
did you feel that they change him in the Crucible for in the end he was difrent or so i tought, he was calm not crazy i tought he was even crazy in the Prince of lies. But any way a god book i hope we be hearing more from you in the forgotten realms
Yes, at the end of Prince Cyric was unhinged. That was the intent.
I wasn't involved with Crucible in any way, so I had no say in the changes they made to Cyric or any of the other characters from Avatar or Prince of Lies.
Glad you enjoyed Prince, though. 
Cheers,
James Lowder |
| Cyric |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 19:17:04
did you feel that they change him in the Crucible for in the end he was difrent or so i tought, he was calm not crazy i tought he was even crazy in the Prince of lies. But any way a god book i hope we be hearing more from you in the forgotten realms |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 19:00:00
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
Yes and i would just ask did you createt(the god) Cyric with him as mad or was this like he should be ?
Cyric became unhinged over the course of the original trilogy. The defining moment for his character was the scene in Tantras where he cuts the soldier's hamstring and justifies it to himself by saying "You'd do the same to me." (That was one of the specific scenes I wrote as an addition for Tantras after Scott Ciencin turned over his draft; because of time contraints, there wasn't really a lot of revision time.) Cyric's notion that self-interest is the primary motivation for everyone around him became more and more extreme as he does more extreme things to achieve his ambitions, and then tries to justify these evil deeds to himself with the philosophy.
To my way of thinking, Cyric knows deep down that he's lying to himself, that nobility is possible. But this makes him both insane (he both belives and rejects the truth, causing this rift) and an ideal god of deception. His entire philosophy, which is now a divine philosophy, and his existance as a god is founded upon lies.
So it was always my plan that Cyric be unhinged. And that's why I left him as I did at the end of Prince.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| Cyric |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 16:32:47
Yes and i would just ask did you createt(the god) Cyric with him as mad or was this like he should be ? |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 02:57:39
I had fogotten about that decree of Ao   ,
So the road block has been hit... still there is always a detour
One must merely figure it out.
Still I would think that the raw desparation of someone going up to that fate (to become a wall) would win a few (if very few) points. Granted most build up these faith points in their life thus are claimed by some deity that they put faith in. The faithless lack the accumulation of such points (thus being faithless), however they have one thing going for them, and that would be the fact that in their life, all they have believed is wrong.
I mean you die, then there is various deities that take the faithful as you are ushered into a giant castle of bone to be judged by a rather stern deity, it would tend to make some people to plead for a second chance... (which is not unheard of in the realms ).
There are other hopes as well, Tanar'ri raids and Baatezu recruitment. Still I have a feeling that there is a rather obvious way around this to save these unfortunate souls... I just can't see it  Perhaps time will reveal it...In a bold strike of maddness and genius I hope 
One final thought (I promise I'll be quiet the ), The main reason I might think that drives an actual faithless to be faithless (rather than false), could be anger and hate. It is an odd way of thinking about it but looking within myself and wondering why one would be faithless; one answer lies paramount: P R I D E.
The faithless might not be faithless because of unknowing (which has driven my arguments thus) but on a ground of that the deities are little more than powerful children that strike awe and terror within mortals. This belief would drive one to hate these very powerful interlopers, and regard them little more than alternate versions of Fiends or Celestials who seem to like being worshiped and bowed to... (which could be supported if they ever met Gargauth who is such a being). Their vows on how a mortal should or should not live also could spur such thoughts (For example: My own characters that I would love to have worshiping Shar, her dogma says it is forbidden to plan ahead or strive to better one's own lot, thus a conflict of intrests  ). Still this anger for the deities does not really alternate me from my chosen arguement, for in essence they are correct as well. What gives the deity a right to stand in judgement of a mortal? (I realize that there may or may not be a public outcry in the keep but when have I ever thought before I speak? )
*Gets off soapbox.....for now* |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 02:49:17
quote:
It's an interesting idea, but the god might have to break the basic rules for how divine powers interact with the mortal realms. Gods derive their power from their faithful, so if you're the God of the Faithless, from whence does your power originate? If the faithless unknowingly "feed" the god, that takes away an aspect of free will--the mortals are seemingly forced to worhsip, even if they don't think they are or choose not to.
Ahh intriguing JamesLowder...well met indeed. Similar to the ancient chinese philosophy saying u live ur life trying 2 achieve 1 goal, and that goal is 2 not achieve at anything. Basicly saying u try 2 avoid something so much u end up achiving it becuz u try so hard 2 avoid i |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 01:18:30
quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Thinking about it, (and like others have said) it does seem to be a bit drastic that these faithless are eventually turned into building blocks in the Wall... Still I would think that ilmater or some other sickeningly goodly god would 'save' these people from this fate... If none will.. The It is high time there becomes a god of the faithless... Actually I think the one who has already 'died' of neglect would make an excellent God of the Faithless... What do you guys think? Should the Faithless besaved? ... Leave the false to rot though... one who is nothing but a Liar of Faith deserves no Redemption...
It's an interesting idea, but the god might have to break the basic rules for how divine powers interact with the mortal realms. Gods derive their power from their faithful, so if you're the God of the Faithless, from whence does your power originate? If the faithless unknowingly "feed" the god, that takes away an aspect of free will--the mortals are seemingly forced to worhsip, even if they don't think they are or choose not to.
Interesting idea, though.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 01:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by Thysl
[i]Here's another question Mr. Lowder: Was it ever in the design group's plan that Bane would eventually return or did you believe you where killing him for good?
When we were putting together the original trilogy, there wasn't much thought given to what would happen to Bane after Tantras, though he was clearly the most likely of "the Dead Three" to be brought back eventually.
When I started working out my proposal for Prince of Lies, though, I had the subject of Bane's return in mind for what would have been my sequel to Prince. The original working title for the Prince sequel was Revolt of the Shadows and dealt a lot with Cyric, Mask, and the return of Bane. But I parted ways with TSR and they assigned the sequel for Prince to someone else.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
| Thysl |
Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 05:24:31
I am in agreement Cardinal Deimos! Let the new god of the Faithless be Adon, the Unlucky! |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 02:29:59
Thinking about it, (and like others have said) it does seem to be a bit drastic that these faithless are eventually turned into building blocks in the Wall... Still I would think that ilmater or some other sickeningly goodly god would 'save' these people from this fate... If none will.. The It is high time there becomes a god of the faithless... Actually I think the one who has already 'died' of neglect would make an excellent God of the Faithless... What do you guys think? Should the Faithless besaved? ... Leave the false to rot though... one who is nothing but a Liar of Faith deserves no Redemption... |
| Thysl |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 20:12:48
Are you certain you're not thinking of events from Troy Denning's book, Crucible?
Ahhh, yes, I'm sorry, it was Mr. Denning that cracked Adon like an egg.
Here's another question Mr. Lowder: Was it ever in the design group's plan that Bane would eventually return or did you believe you where killing him for good? |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 01:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
a honor to have you her Mr. Lowder since you are on the inside are there coming any books abut Cyric and your work was very good in Prince of Lies i greet you welcome.
Thanks for the kind words about Prince. Glad you enjoyed it.
Actually, I'm not on the inside with Wizards or the Realms these days. I haven't heard of any projects involving Cyric in the works, but that doesn't mean they might not have one planned.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 01:48:25
quote:
Originally posted by Thysl
If I recall correctly you were the last author to use Adon of Mystra in a book. And where you left him was a faithless soul in someones care (can't remember who). Can you give us any clue where you guys stowed that poor punching bag of a character? Did you have any plans for him that died in production?
Hmmm. I recall having Adon show up in a cameo about seven or eight chapters into Prince, and then again toward the end, where he is tending the inmates in an asylum. I thought I left him there, but I could be wrong. (It's been a long time since I went over the whole book.) Are you certain you're not thinking of events from Troy Denning's book, Crucible?
quote:
Another question I have about Adon: was he originally meant to be in the position he was in at the end of Waterdeep when the design team finalised the Time of Troubles? When Mr. Ciencin first put pen to paper on Shadowdale did he know that Mystra and Cyric would become gods and Adon would get diddley?
Adon was intended, from the start, to be the one left behind in the mortal realms. And Cyric and Midnight were "fated" to become gods at the start of the Avatar Trilogy.
I always thought of Adon becoming, at the original trilogy's close, the mortal conscience of the characters who became gods. In fact, what Midnight and Cyric, and eventually Kelemvor, got from ascension was far less, in some important ways, than what they gave up when they stopped being mortal.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| Cyric |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 18:07:06
a honor to have you her Mr. Lowder since you are on the inside are there coming any books abut Cyric and your work was very good in Prince of Lies i greet you welcome |
| Thysl |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 07:34:13
First: It's a great pleasure, Mr. Lowder. I'm glad to hear that you are busy making good stuff!
Second: If I recall correctly you were the last author to use Adon of Mystra in a book. And where you left him was a faithless soul in someones care (can't remember who). Can you give us any clue where you guys stowed that poor punching bag of a character? Did you have any plans for him that died in production?
Another question I have about Adon: was he originally meant to be in the position he was in at the end of Waterdeep when the design team finalised the Time of Troubles? When Mr. Ciencin first put pen to paper on Shadowdale did he know that Mystra and Cyric would become gods and Adon would get diddley?
I'm sure it's been asked before but I just have to know. Adon was my favorite character in that trilogy and I thought it was sad that he got nothing while all the other members of that august group eventually become dieties. Don't get me started on what YOU did to him.Also tell me if I missed a memo; did Mr. Denning touch on Adon in Crucible and I missed it?
Anyhow, once again, a pleasure
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| JamesLowder |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 02:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape...
Well, that's the down side of living in a universe run by gods that have their power linked to the belief of their worshipers, one that has fixed alignments and the like. The deities don't take kindly to those who refuse to believe in them. From the gods' point of view, the punishment is quite fair--no one forced the people to be Faithless. They chose that belief. And there are consequences for that choice.
It's not pleasant, but it is fair, within the context of the Realms cosmology.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| Bayne |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 00:08:58
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape...
I agree, it does seem rather unfair. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 18:49:44
I still don't like that atheists and agnostics are essentially tortured into oblivion. Couldn't they share the same fate as the False? I guess its better than being food for Asmodeus, like the Godless in Planescape... |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 02:45:49
quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
you may ask that where the question is in that above said things so I ask now: Can those mysterious points claified in your next book? Perhaps it is a secret but I dare to ask if my ideas make sense please respond
Jander:
I think that those issues are certainly worth covering in a book, but I'm not currently contracted for any new Realms novels.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 22:33:18
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder
quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness?
A very good question. Possible answers: 1) the Good-aligned can't act on this matter because of pantheon politics; 2) they haven't acted on it yet, but will; or 3) they realize that even these evil acts may be leading to a greater good (the Chaotic Good types might see that as OK).
There's lots there in the celestial politics to explore.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
you may ask that where the question is in that above said things so I ask now: Can those mysterious points claified in your next book? Perhaps it is a secret but I dare to ask if my ideas make sense please respond |
| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 22:27:41
I m so pleased to see Mr Lowder in these sacred halls, I cannot even ask him the questions in my mind because I want to see his posts again but I can ask questions about topic, can't I Mr Lowder?
I can think the reason for their ignorance can be their business with their own flock and resposibilies of their own title but I think even if they are not interested in those issues Ao cannot allow for the sake of balance because good cannot be punished like the evil but if the balance requieres every god should take their fa,thful to their domain it can make sense. However I think it is an evil thing to torture a good being for his or her goodness. I think if the realm of dead changes after Cyric and Myrkul followed the path of Jergal that we don't know how thing can differ a little bit. Ao may have given the permision for that particular plot so cyrinshad (I don't know if I recalled right)cannot be the only reason and Torm's news can triger that. Everything was for balance in all means
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| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 00:11:34
Mr. Lowder,
Thank you so for being kind enough to take the time to answer our questions.You are very busy no doubt about that and so your free time is indeed a very precious gift you have given us.Also happy to see things looking ever bright in your future with all the irons you have in the fire! Finally I wish you all the best and continued success in everything you do.
Will |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:46:02
quote:
Originally posted by William of Waterdeep
Could you give us some more specific information on what you have been working on,maybe book names or other general info.
Hi, Will:
In terms of fiction, I've been publishing a lot of short stories, the two most recent being in the DAW anthology The Repentant and the Del Rey anthology Shadows Over Baker Street. I just signed a contract to write a creator-owned novel set in R.A. Salvatore's DemonWars world, Brotherhood of the Lost. The book will come out late in 2004. It came about specifically because of Prince of Lies, by the by; R.A. Salvatore read Prince and found the material on faith interesting. I also have a dark fantasy trilogy under consideration in New York, as well as some comic books I scripted coming out from Moonstone and the occasional RPG product from various companies.
As an editor I've been putting together a lot of anthologies: three zombie fiction books for Eden Studios, two Arthurian anthologies for Green Knight, two superhero fiction anthologies for Guardians of Order, and a pulp anthology for Hero Games.
Pretty busy, actually, with just about everyone but Wizards of the Coast
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:34:18
quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness?
A very good question. Possible answers: 1) the Good-aligned can't act on this matter because of pantheon politics; 2) they haven't acted on it yet, but will; or 3) they realize that even these evil acts may be leading to a greater good (the Chaotic Good types might see that as OK).
There's lots there in the celestial politics to explore.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Hi Jim. I said 'official Realms' because that's what I read as being the case in the official Realms, based on its sources. For instance, the 'power(s) worshiped (if any)' line of the NPC writeups in the Old Grey Box list mostly one god but sometimes two; the first sentence of Prayers of the Faithful says '...know more and better prayers to serve their deity (or deities, for there are many who serve more than one divine name)', several instances of people praying to gods other than their patron (to Umberlee for safety at sea, or sick dwarves pray to Sharindlar, for instance); but no mention of the Wall of the Faithless and no deliberate emphasis on having a single patron.
And in fact, checking the introduction to Faiths & Avatars (1996), what I wrote is a fairly close paraphrase, though 'most have one or two favoured gods' would be more accurate than 'many...'.
What I was saying is that the 'faithless' idea entered with Prince of Lies, and that I don't like it. The process by which the Realms came to be what it is (its evolution before and after TSR bought it) is an important thing to understand about the Realms. (I agree with the rest of what you've posted here.)
Hi, Faraer:
I didn't create the idea that there would be faithless people in the Realms out of thin air. Nowhere does it say in the source material, as far as I recall, that everyone believes in the gods. I think it's therefore pretty logical that there would be those who don't. This is especialy true when you consider the fact that the gray boxed set includes info on cults and rival (non-human) pantheons and mentions gods that have fallen out of favor. With that many rival cosmologies, there have to be people who see the conflicts and choose to believe "none of the above."
So I'm taking something that would logically exist and drawing attention to it, not creating it or changing it.
There isn't anything in Prince that says that it is impossible to worship more than one god without being slammed with the False label. But the more sets of rules to which you make yourself beholden as a worshipper, the more likely you are to trip up. And depending upon the god or goddess you worship, you may not get much slack in the afterworld.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 21:40:46
Alaundo said-
Quote:
Well Met
Hmmm, ohhhhhh im as intrigued as the next scribe! Ahem, er..... Realmslore within these halls only, you know the rules, William Of course, James Lowder may have stepped in through a portal from another world, bearing information from such places....who am I to argue whats valid here
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Will:
Thank you Master Alaundo
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JamesLowder said-
Quote:
Thanks for asking, Will.
I haven't done any work for WotC, Realms or otherwise, since--let me see, '99 or so. I've been really busy writing and editing, just not for WotC.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
______________________________________________________________________
Will:
Could you give us some more specific information on what you have been working on,maybe book names or other general info.
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| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 21:21:00
1-Yes you are right Mr Lowder, simple folk doesn't have those divine info and many people are not wise enough to see what the ascending of a mortal means.But that was not the first Bane, Myrkul and Bane were once mortal and ascend with their own power and of course Jergal's will so I don't understand why Cyric's ascending sped up the competition
2-I think faithless makes sense especially under a lawful neutral deity's control. If every god has its domain why would they accept people don't worship them into their domain? There must be a place for them to go and a realm of the dead works well for this purpose. But after Jergal 2 seriously evil gods ruled this title. I believe that their rule was unfair, eventhough I don't know what was Myrkul's attitude I can assume that he was not more gentle than Cyric. It was like hell, to punish and torture. Treating everyone, including heroes or simple good folk that are not devoted to a particular god, that way doesn't make much sense. I believe there may be a bad judgement about this faithless handling in afterlife during a long reign of evil gods. It was not a balanced judgment. Why Ao didn't do anything about that or other gods of goodness? |
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