| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 03:56:54
I recently bought some older D&D RPG books off of Ebay and amongst them was a Monsterous Compendium (forgot the subtitle). It had, among other things, a psionic lich. I had never heard of this variety before this. So my questions are these:
What other types of liches exist? I know of the usual arcane variety (human, dracolich, drowlich, demilich, etc) and I have heard of a dry lich, so I mean what is there beyond those types.
Are there examples of non standard (again by standard I mean arcane lich, dracolich, drow lich, etc) in the Realms? As in, are there any psionic liches, dry liiches, etc.? In novels or RPG material.
Is there an advantage or disadvantage to being a psionic lich as opposed to an arcane lich?
If a character were a psion and an arcane caster and became an arcane lich, would they retain their psionic abilities?
Any answers would be appreciated. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 08:48:01
Sage, there is a bardic class in Dragon #311 called the Dirgesinger. It might be what you're looking for! Also, was that evil bard you mentioned the same composer from the Dragon issue with the bardic necromantic spells? Can't remember the issue # or the character's name, but the title was something about a symphony. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 05:17:05
Also Vlaakith's tl'a'ikith and kr'y'izoth servitors ... I'm not sure, but they could be liches. I've noted some adventures which happen to feature Githyanki liches here. They (and their phylacteries) seem to use standard lich rules. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dunno. There are gith liches, so who cares about orcs? 
I don't really care. I'm just a little curious. [I planned to read Weight of Blood which has a half-orc spellcaster. He's not a lich, thoug, AFAIK.]
Who are those gith liches? Are they in Toril? Or traveling the Realmspace?
Isn't the queen of the githyanki a lich?
Yes, Vlaakith, the Lich-Queen of the Githyanki. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 04:24:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dunno. There are gith liches, so who cares about orcs?
I don't really care. I'm just a little curious. [I planned to read Weight of Blood which has a half-orc spellcaster. He's not a lich, thoug, AFAIK.]
Who are those gith liches? Are they in Toril? Or traveling the Realmspace?
Isn't the queen of the githyanki a lich? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:27:06
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dunno. There are gith liches, so who cares about orcs?
I don't really care. I'm just a little curious. [I planned to read Weight of Blood which has a half-orc spellcaster. He's not a lich, thoug, AFAIK.]
Who are those gith liches? Are they in Toril? Or traveling the Realmspace? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 10:56:04
Dunno. There are gith liches, so who cares about orcs? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 08:55:02
Wow. Music seems to permeate every scroll. I never associated music with lichdom...
Anyway, quick question:
Is there an orc lich in the Realms? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 07:26:49
A haunted soul organ and a dirge-playing undead organist. Wonderful ideas!
A gypsy lich with a violin phylactery also seems compelling.
I also like the concept of bardic powers/bonuses applying to undead minions. But a troubling detail: mindless undead don't make a great audience. Bards (and their magics) thrive on interaction, they are social creatures, yet most liches automatically emanate an aura of fear and death. Living creatures instinctively avoid and are repulsed by the undead. I think an endless unliving existence of solitude would be an unimaginable hell for any true bard. Illusions and such can go a long way, but even the most careful and meticulous lich (for instance, Szass Tam) cannot successfully disguise such unholy decay forever. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 06:32:27
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Flauteries, if you want to be technical. Although I was actually thinking more in terms of an insane bardic lich playing haunted anguished arias on his grand pipe organ phylactery.
Ooooh! The arias could be composed from the tortured cries of lost and/or plundered souls -- perhaps imprisoned within the pipe organ [and the phylactery being something else entirely], which the bardic-lich weaves into great symphonies of darkness and death. An eternal lament focusing on the life of a bardic-lich.
quote:
Upon further reflection this might not be such a great idea. Unlike the usual gemstones and other talesma, musical instruments require constant tuning and maintenance, especially after untold decades or centuries (whether used or not). Unless the lich's magic or vital essence somehow preserves them, of course.
I would say that depends on the material used to construct the instrument-phylactery. Some options are stronger than others, after all.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 06:26:38
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And bardic liches with flute phylactories. Flactories? Fluctories? Hmmmm.....
I want to thank you for this awesome idea, Alystra. This is definitely something I'm going to tinker with.
In terms of what kind of music would be produced... I'm thinking something similar to that produced by the "evil" composer mentioned in Richard Lee Byers contribution to the Halls of Stormweather anthology -- "Song of Chaos." It was his evilly-crafted music that originally led to all the reality-altering perceptions of the guests at the concert. The musical composition of the evil composer's works in "Song of Chaos" demonstrates what perversely-inspired music can do to both people and their surroundings -- especially when the music itself is infused with magic.
...
Maybe in the case of a bardic-lich, the music doesn't so much alternate reality, as it does provide benefits to certain types of undead, while encouraging negative effects upon its enemies. Ultimately, dirges and melancholic tunes would be the primary pieces among a bardic-lich's repertoire. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 06:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I really don't know much about warforged, they aren't present in my games (except as monsters on rare occasions).
I suppose that would depend upon the resolution of the question about whether warforged have souls or not. It's largely indeterminate in the relevant EBERRON-lore, but it's worth noting that no warforged souls have ever been encountered in Dolurrh [the Realm of the Dead].
quote:
Perhaps dragonborn can become liches, given that dracoliches exist.
I'd assume, in this case, that a [lesser] variation of the special potion used in the creation of dracoliches, would be required for dragonborn.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 06:12:57
Most magical instruments are very hard to damage, resisting normal wear and tear, and might only need occasional tuning. I LOVE that pipe organ phylactory idea. I'm suddenly seeing the Phantom of the Opera as a lich (wearing his mask to hide his hideous undead appearance) and using his bardic abilities to charm and seduce young divas..... Fits in nicely with the Bonefiddle and other bardic necromancy spells intro'ed in an issue of Dragon years ago! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:39:50
Flauteries, if you want to be technical. Although I was actually thinking more in terms of an insane bardic lich playing haunted anguished arias on his grand pipe organ phylactery.
Upon further reflection this might not be such a great idea. Unlike the usual gemstones and other talesma, musical instruments require constant tuning and maintenance, especially after untold decades or centuries (whether used or not). Unless the lich's magic or vital essence somehow preserves them, of course. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:38:39
I see what you are getting at now Arik. I was thinking about it from the immortality angle and you are saying that they can't bind their soul to a phylactory because part of it is tied to another plane. I could see that being an issue.
I'll post the question Sage quoted to Ed.
I dug out my copy of Libris Mortis that I probably should've read a little closer when I bought it years ago. In the Lich section, one of the sample liches is a Bard Lich so it is possible. Interestingly, there was also mention of Lichfiends which included a list of the fiends that could attain lichdom (which included Pit Fiends, as if they weren't strong enough). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:27:13
I'm already envisioning half-dracoliches and Feind-liches. (Feindlicious? LOL!!!) And bardic liches with flute phylactories. Flactories? Fluctories? Hmmmm.....
Okay, I just hought of a weird question- could a drow become a baelnorn? I know there are drow liches, but they are also elves, and I don't recall seeing anywhere that drow are forbidden to be granted the honor be becoming a baelnorn to serve an elven kingdom. Does anyone know about this? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:14:03
I really don't know much about warforged, they aren't present in my games (except as monsters on rare occasions).
Perhaps dragonborn can become liches, given that dracoliches exist.
Outsiders include creatures like genasi, aasimar, tieflings and cambions. Perhaps they can lich ... though I'm inclined to think some integral part of their soul/spirit/essence is eternally linked to some other plane and therefore substantially more difficult to contain within a phylactery device. In the case of aasimar/tieflings these links would be to outer planes, so their essence might be constrained by conditions which do not apply to common mortals - the question becomes somewhat theological, what sort of afterlife does a tiefling face?
Having said all that, nothing is impossible when magic is involved. Nonhuman races and nonwizard classes might require (be forced to discover) alternative approaches to lich themselves. Baelnorn, for example, are essentially elven liches though their liching (baeling?) process is dramatically different from that of traditional liches.
I think the central concept of somehow permanently containing the soul/whatever is fundamental to liching, all liches of all types have some sort of phylactery (though they may not think of it as such). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:00:50
Me too! I just sa this, and that bard-lich sounds intriguing! I'd love to see what Ed has to say on that. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 04:53:22
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I have a new question based on some of these responses. I get the impression that in most cases the person (or creature) in question needs to want to become a lich for it to work (unless I am misunderstanding). So, how often does it happen unbeknownst (that it is happening when it happens) to the person in question or how often does it happen against someone's will? I know it happens to a woman in The Pirate King and I'm curious if it's a common occurance.
Honestly, I think this would be a great question for Ed. I'd love to hear what he can say in reply.
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| Tyrant |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:04:38
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm of the opinion that anyone can become a lich - provided he can undergo the proper preparations, transfer his soul into a phylactery, and survive the process. Traditional liches were wizards, though I don't see any reason a warlock, sorceror, priest, or psion couldn't lich himself up. I'd even allow bards to lich if they were determined, did their research, and were somehow capable of producing and using a musical phylactery. Shades, outsiders, dragonborn, and warforged probably can't (and basically don't need to) lich themselves.
A bard lich? That could be interesting. As for your 4 exceptions, I get why Shades wouldn't be interested (nearly immortal) and I assume the same is true for outsiders (I was unaware it was always true, I knew numerous outsiders were immortal), but are warforged and dragonborn immortal?
@Sage-These were just general questions, I don't actually play the RPG. So I'm not bound by any particular edition (though I do know a little about 3.5 and 4th), just general ideas/guidelines.
I have a new question based on some of these responses. I get the impression that in most cases the person (or creature) in question needs to want to become a lich for it to work (unless I am misunderstanding). So, how often does it happen unbeknownst (that it is happening when it happens) to the person in question or how often does it happen against someone's will? I know it happens to a woman in The Pirate King and I'm curious if it's a common occurance. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:17:11
I'm of the opinion that anyone can become a lich - provided he can undergo the proper preparations, transfer his soul into a phylactery, and survive the process. Traditional liches were wizards, though I don't see any reason a warlock, sorceror, priest, or psion couldn't lich himself up. I'd even allow bards to lich if they were determined, did their research, and were somehow capable of producing and using a musical phylactery. Shades, outsiders, dragonborn, and warforged probably can't (and basically don't need to) lich themselves.
One detail about warlocks: they have pacts. The infernal and fey pacts can involve the warlock's soul, so a prolongued existence as an undead might be frowned upon (unless some fiend gets to own the phylactery) and any serious attempt to lich might be opposed or sabotaged. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 04:54:35
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I have a new, related question. Is there a path to lichdom for warlocks? Or, alternatively, is there a lich equivalent for warlocks?
Just as there are different kinds of liches [Larloch and Druth Daern are examples] there are different kinds of lichnee processes.
I don't think a process for warlocks becoming liches has ever been properly detailed, but it wouldn't take much to alter the "Becoming a Lich" methodology for wizards detailed on pg. 73 of the original Lords of Darkness tome, in order for it to work with warlocks.
I suppose a warlock's force of will would be just as crucial as a wizard's in making the transition. But maybe, instead, the warlock is required to adapt the spells needed for the process, like magic jar and trap the soul, into invocations [I'm assuming you're working with the 3e warlock class?]. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 02:48:51
I have a new, related question. Is there a path to lichdom for warlocks? Or, alternatively, is there a lich equivalent for warlocks? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 00:17:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
An excellent source for special lich lore is Van Richten's Guide to the Lich from 2E Ravenloft.
All of the Van Richten's Guides are great, regardless of the setting. 
Indeed. It's worth noting that the majority of material presented in these fabulous tomes isn't setting-specific. So most of it can easily be applied to liches in the Realms.
I know I've used it. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 23:45:04
quote:
Originally posted by Portella
But to answer the question from the op a psion/wizarddecided to turn into a lich could take what ever aprouch they would still retain their powers. However any abilities that require a living caster body would not work. But that goes also with the wizard spells. I would like to suggest that you devise a new formulae of turning into a lich that would allow advancement on both proffessions taking into consideration the existing rules over dual classing. It would be a great side story even adventure hook the devise and gather all the stuff to turn yourselve into a lich but keeping your powers
My assumption is that a character with psionic and arcane levels, who chose to become a psionic lich, would still retain their arcane abilities because to the best of my knowledge they don't require the caster to be alive (obviously any that do have that requirement won't work). I quess what I was really wondering was can an undead creature who didn't properly plan (planning would be choosing to become a psionic lich) to retain their psionic abilities from their days as a mortal still use them after they are undead? Is there anything about being undead that prevents the use of psionic abilities (again, unless they planned ahead)? I got the impression that there was because the ritual describes transferring their powers to their phylactory (which leaves their mortal body without those powers, so they become weaker and weaker until they tranfer their last power and complete the transformation into a lich) and indicated that any powers not transferred were lost.
As for the idea of creating a ritual, if I played the RPG I probably would. I could see whatever the psionic/arcane theurge prestige class is called having a use for a combined ritual. I would need to read more about the ritual to become an arcane lich, but I think it could work. It would likely involve tranferring their psionic powers into the phylactery first (except for the final ability that seems to complete the process, if I understand it correctly), then perform most of the arcane ritual, then finish that ritual as they transfer their final psionic ability. I'm not sure what advantage there would be to doing this type of dual ritual though. You can't be double undead, I think. Though that ghost of a lich mentioned makes me question that. Interesting idea for a new ritual though.
Thanks for the info from everyone. Arik, if I come across them I may have to check out the Van Richten books. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 20:54:50
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
An excellent source for special lich lore is Van Richten's Guide to the Lich from 2E Ravenloft.
All of the Van Richten's Guides are great, regardless of the setting. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 20:34:23
An excellent source for special lich lore is Van Richten's Guide to the Lich from 2E Ravenloft. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 20:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Ambuchar Devayam in Solon is an unique lich.
You mean Tan Chin? 
Brian James and I figured out some time ago that he not precisely unique (although maybe unique to the Realms). His form of lichdom is known as a Sule Lich (Greyhawk), which can lead us down all sorts of devious paths of conjecture (the Suel Empire rose around the time Imaskar fell).
That Shoon Lich apparently managed to transform into this type, or some variant there-of (he doesn't seem to be able to switch bodies again, unless he just doesn't want to).
Also, Lady Saharel (Spellgaurd) is rather unique - she is the ghost of an Archlich (does that make her double undead?) 
And then there's Ioulaum..... 
Since Archlich is taken, maybe we can call Larloch an Urlich (as in, a 'primordial lich', like an Arch-Vampire lord.) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:39:14
Tyrant — Wooly answered your question about Baneliches well enough. They're detailed in Ruins of Zhentil Keep. |
| Portella |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:30:17
But to answer the question from the op a psion/wizarddecided to turn into a lich could take what ever aprouch they would still retain their powers. However any abilities that require a living caster body would not work. But that goes also with the wizard spells. I would like to suggest that you devise a new formulae of turning into a lich that would allow advancement on both proffessions taking into consideration the existing rules over dual classing. It would be a great side story even adventure hook the devise and gather all the stuff to turn yourselve into a lich but keeping your powers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 23:55:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Light
I guess an Alhoon would be another type or would these fall under the arcane types that you already know of?
Yeah I have heard of them. I guess I should've written a more comprehensive list on that front. Thanks anyway.
Arik, could you elaborate on what a Banelich is?
As another general question, with the various acrane liches, are the means of becoming such a creature different depending on their type? I know that a Dracolich uses a different means than a human arcane type becoming a Lich, but is it different between say a human and a Drow? Or an Alhoon?
I'd say that most of these specialized liches use different methods for achieving lichdom.
Pretty much.
I'd even take this as far as saying that some liches of the same "type," derive methods that individualise the lichnee processes they've each used to enter the state of lichdom. Which is an assumption largely supported by Ed's commentary on Larloch's lichnee and necromantic processes. And I doubt he's the only lich to tinker with the process in order to either increase or specialise the abilities granted by this state of undeath. |
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