| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 23:49:16
Mine are:
Star Elves
Sun Elves
Moon Elves
Avariel
Drow
Wood Elves
Wild Elves
What are yours? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 07:47:37
Gold elves are my favorite now, and I also like fey'ri, which I'll include as an elven race also. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 04:12:42
Take CoA's comments on elves with a few grains (handful) of salt....
Drizzt vs Obould. Well, that's taking things a bit out of context, actually. Obould was given those powers as a sign of his god's favor of his course, NOT so he could be a threat to Drizzt personally. In fact, he was already more than a match for most elves even before that ritual.Most of his threat was not so much from the ritual, but from his cunning tactics and his sword and armor. He was a powerhouse and a brutal fighter LONG before he ever fought Drizzt. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 21:41:11
Well, I never intended for this scroll to attract Tel-Quessir haters.......To tell you the truth, I just wanted to start a discussion for people (like me!!) who are obsessed (or at least like them XD) and just talk about wh we love them and the sib-races. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 11:25:52
just to get into the spirit of things my favourites are Rock Elves, Shadow Elves & Ghost Elves.....work out those connections... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 07:03:12
I've changed my mind. Lets talk about elves.
My favorite elves are drow. When I say "favorite, I mean "favorite to watch be killed in various painful and creative ways." My favorite method of disposing with them is by tossing them to a pit full of mindflayers and watching them fight over the snack. I'm also fond about pitting them unarmed against more physically powerful creatures and listening with utter glee and delight as their bones are shattered and their limbs ripped from their bodies. Oh what a wonderful crunching sound it does make. And fire. Oh nothing gets me in the mood for some bbq quite like the smell of drow burning in hellfire. Absolutely mouthwatering.
I'm rather frustrated at the moment by my lack of a proper computer on which to theraputically write about these things at great length and detail. Oh well. The power of the imagination will have to suffice. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 02:43:28
Okay, I'd really like to see us return to discussing elves, not fighting styles. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 21:53:35
Another reason I like the big characters is that when they fight it tends to be more straight up, head to head, and brutal. And I prefer that to the flashy, duck dodge weave spin style of the speedy types(another reason I like Lee and Jaa, very direct styles). If its done well, I can appreciate and enjoy the faster guy fight scene, especially if its between two smaller guys because that doesn't have the fake suspense of the david/golaith scenario attached to it, it's just two guys fighting.
But with elves...Drizzt fighting against Artemis is alright because its pretty much what I just discribed. Drizzt fighting Obould is rediculous because they literally had to have the big guy be blessed by a god before he could pose a threat and beat an elf in a one on one fight. When you've taken it to that level and said that elves are that good, it becomes absurd. Of course this is bleeding into my rant against monster races being used as cannonfodder by writers and how it kills all tension and threat they might pose. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 21:36:47
Don't get me wrong, I don't like big guy antihero types at face value. I will take a smaller speed/skill character done well over a big guy done badly. Bruce Lee, not a huge guy, loved him in each of his movies. Tony Jaa, not a huge guy, was great in The Protector. Jet Li- ok, I'm gonna go off on a martial arts movie rant if I don't stop myself.
As for villains, I tend to like them better because they tend to be the more complex and interesting characters. They drive the plot; hell, they are the plot half the time. Their phsycology and motivations can be truly fascinating to me. I mentioned the elf prince from Hellboy earlier, and he's a great example of this(though in that case I admittedly like Hellboy better, if only because of Ron Pearlman). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 20:22:31
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Of course they aren't heroes. Heroes bore the hell out of me. Give me anti heroes and anti villains and villain protaganists. Those are the people that fascinate me. Heroes? The hell do I want to read about another hero for?
As for the size thing, I think it is clear at this point that there's nothing I'm going to say to make you see the appeal I have for the big, powerful characters(male and female). Same way around, I don't think there's anything your gonna say to make me see the appeal of the little guy.
To each his own, of course. I'm just saying that I think big guy anti-heroes are just as boring as you find the smaller (or more NORMAL, IMO) hero types. Both are really over-used tropes, but at least the heroes usually have a GOOD reason to be running around with a sword. I dislike most villains because they all seem to be of the "take over/destroy the world" sorts. How dumb is THAT?! Once you've taken over the world, then you just have the endless headaches of trying to RUN it. And we all know how hard that is. Just running a single country is more than most people can handle.... And then there's the constant worry about assassins, peasant uprisings, your own forces turning on you.... Who NEEDS that? Most villains are villains for really dumb reasons.
Or, if he's out to destroy it, THEN what??! He doesn't even get to live long enough to appreciate what he's done! (You know, cause he already destroyed everything, and himself along with it.) I'd rather these big bad types with the death wishes just commit suicide and save the hero the trouble of killing them. But no, they always want to take out as many other people with them as possible. Sheesh. |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 13:12:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Generally in D&D, the Sidhelien from Birthright, then the Aerenal.
I like the Aerenal as well. And the Undying Court for that matter. In fact, I've been tinkering with a baelnorn-like concept for the Aerenal elves of EBERRON.
The baelnorn are perfect for them, maybe change the name, the ''norn'' part sounds a bit norse.
They stand out among other elven D&D cultures, unique and alien enough to fit in my FR. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 08:58:48
Though it is funny you mention the hulking guy with the rapier; back in my warcraft days I had an orc character who for a time, walked around in a tux wielding a rapier as his weapon of choice. Was funny as hell. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 08:50:45
Of course they aren't heroes. Heroes bore the hell out of me. Give me anti heroes and anti villains and villain protaganists. Those are the people that fascinate me. Heroes? The hell do I want to read about another hero for?
As for the size thing, I think it is clear at this point that there's nothing I'm going to say to make you see the appeal I have for the big, powerful characters(male and female). Same way around, I don't think there's anything your gonna say to make me see the appeal of the little guy. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 08:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
At the end of the day this boils down to personal appeal, I'll admit that. Personally I find characters who are imposing in stature, but intelligent and skillful to be more interesting. Conan the Barbarian, Darth Vader, Urdnot Wrex(Mass Effect), Orgrim Doomhammer(Warcraft), Kain(Legacy of Kain), Nightmare(Soul Series), and others.
I dunno, I've never cared that much one way or another how big the guy with the sword is. And I might also point out that most of these really don't even qualify as heroes. Conan's a gray area, but most of those others are either anti-heroes at best, or outright bad guys that I'd never feel any sympathy for to begin with. (Vader, maybe, but only at the end , and only because we know how he got started on that path....) To me, a physically imposing character is just another huge jerk who wants to throw his weight around, even if he's the smartest guy in the kingdom. And they generally don't seem all that pleasant to be around, either. Poor hygiene, worse manners, sheesh....
Kull was the same way- big hunk, smart, but in the end, I was only marginally glad that he got to be king. Yay for the jock with the huge axe. Compensating, much? And that's another thing that always irks me with "big guy" types- they always seem to have HUGE swords/axes/insert-weapon-of choice-heres. It's really annoying. What, they never heard of a dagger or short sword? I'd even settle for them using a bow or spear. Where's the hulking hunk with a dainty rapier?! |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:06:13
You have to admit this wasn't exactly a topic with great potential for lengthy discussion. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:02:03
*Casts locate topic* |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:58:23
At the end of the day this boils down to personal appeal, I'll admit that. Personally I find characters who are imposing in stature, but intelligent and skillful to be more interesting. Conan the Barbarian, Darth Vader, Urdnot Wrex(Mass Effect), Orgrim Doomhammer(Warcraft), Kain(Legacy of Kain), Nightmare(Soul Series), and others. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I don't have a blink dog in this fight (not that it's a fight), as I'm neither a particular fan nor a..."non-fan" I guess is the term, of elves. But I thought some of y'all would be amused by this paragraph from Sandstorm. The speaker, Cephas, was raised in isolation as a gladiatorial slave and most of what he knows about the world comes from a sort of natural philosopher orc woman named Grinta the Pike, who explained the races of the world to Cephas in terms of how to fight them.
quote:
"Elves," said Cephas, thinking of Grinta, his only previous source of information about the lands and peoples of Faerūn. "According to Grinta the orc they are the apostate get of the Demon Lord Corellon and the Mother of All Squirrels. They cower behind trees and shoot arrows. Swing at their knees."
LOL...I like that train of thought..."Demon Lord Corellon" is awesome! Just goes to show that the "evil" races of the world might very well think that the "good" races are truly evil! |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:25:54
People who haven't seen a movie or read a book in the last thirty years expect the big guy to win by default. I don't know, maybe I'm too genre savvy for my own good. Or maybe writers consistantly fail to properly built the tension in a scene to make the little guy feel like an underdog as opposed to a monster that the big guy is going to be checking under his bed for every night after this, assuming he survives. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:13:32
I think it's because more people can relate to the smaller guy. Most movie or fictional heroes are of the less muscle-bound variety because everyone EXPECTS a muscle-bound guy to win most fights. Conan was a powerhouse, and no one would have been surprised to see him win. But a short or thin guy without a lot of muscle to throw around? It's much more realistic. He's the underdog, because he's not someone everyone would automatically see as a great warrior. It may be a trope at this point, but it's also easier to relate to. Frodo was the ultimate "little guy" hero. He didn't even do that much fighting himself- he had lots of bigger friends to do most of the serious fighting. But he WAS the main "hero" of the story. Which is precisely why people like these types of heroes- they remind us of ourselves. Who hasn't felt a bit like David going against Goliath at one time or another? In childhood especially, these feelings can be very strong, and we look for heroes who are like us. A little kid who gets picked on a lot is going to root for a hero who is also not very big compared to his enemies. It's simple psychology. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:01:18
...You know, I'm going to step back a moment and take a look at this discussion, and ask "What're we arguing about?"
My original point wasn't about whether or not a smaller, faster opponent could beat a larger, stronger one. I've never denied that it is possible.
My point was that in fiction, and in fantasy fiction especially, the reverse of a larger, stronger opponent actually beating the smaller one is extremely rare. They play on the David vs Goliath thing, but it has become so commonplace that at this point the reader is left scratching his head thinking "Why do they consider this guy a threat again? He's seven feet of pure muscle; he obviously doesn't stand a chance." Give me about ten years of the big guy actually winning and then I might be able to take the tension the reverse is supposed to invoke seriously. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 04:42:43
I never assume, but my experience has shown that they usually do- simply because they're so used to winning that way. And I'm not talking about underestimating a larger opponent, but about understanding what he is likely capable of. Size and power are usually the best weapons such folks have. (Setting speed aside, because even a simple observation for the first few seconds of a fight can often tell you how fast your opponent is.) When two equal-sized people fight, it's often the one who gets in the first hard punch that wins. Same with a big/small fight, but then you have to add in the motivation as a factor of who has more to loose. In such a fight, it's usually the little guy who has the most at stake, because he KNOWS his opponent can do more damage. It may sound like an assumption, but it's one that is often true.
Edit for typos. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 04:27:26
See, that cuts both ways. The little guy assuming the big guy is going to fall back on size and power and assume he's going to win is as much of a preconception and underestimation as the big guy actually doing that. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 04:18:10
I never think of it as a bigger person not knowing how to fight- that's just doing exactly what bigger people usually do in regard to smaller folks- underestimating them. I think it boils down to complacency. A larger guy in a fight is going to rely on his size and power, and will often feel as if he is guaranteed to win simply because he always HAS. Vertically challenged folks don't have that luxury. They can't AFFORD to get complacent or over-confident about a fight. They already know they are at a distinct disadvantage in power. It makes winning the fight that much more important. A bigger guy is more likely to take it less seriously.
So in the end, it's not so much (IMHO) a matter of whether the person knows what they're doing, but who is more motivated to win. It's more about battle psychology than just skill and/or power. It doesn't matter how big you are, if the guy you're fighting really feels he has a REASON to win, you'd better bring your A-game! (Yes, us vertically-challenged folks do sometimes get a slight "Napoleon complex" and feel like we have something to prove- because quite often, we DO have something to prove....) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 03:52:30
People who are assaulted should do what they have to protect themselves.
I don't particularly know why I'd want to read about a small person who knows how to fight assaulting a big person who doesn't, though. Not being particularly small myself, I suppose I don't subscribe to that particular brand of revenge fantasy.
The fight in the princess bride isn't relavent to my point because of one issue. Fezzik is slow as hell. More over I'm not even talking about people in Andre the Giant's size range; not that there are many people in that size range. I'm talking about people, lets say roughly 6'4"-6'8", 265-300lbs. Roughly the size of a big orc or hobgoblin.
As for fighting dirty, everyone's going to fight dirty. Or everyone should, rather, if they have anything close to half a brain in their head. Big, small, doesn't matter. Because your not fighting for fun or sport, you're fighting to end someone's life and keep them from ending yours, and you do whatever you have to to accomplish that. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 03:33:48
CoA: "People who don't know what they're doing in a fight have no business being in a fight, in real life or in fiction. "
So a NORMAL person who is attacked through no fault of his own has no business fighting to save his own skin? Pardon me while I laugh myself sick. It hardly matters whether a person KNOWS what they're doing or not- when the chips are down, you do what you have to, and you do whatever you believe will work. The fight in Princess Bride was between two men who were both masters of their respective fighting styles. I'm talking about normal people fighting in a life-or-death situation. Or even just your average bar-room brawl. Most fights are over pretty quick- usually when one side or the other gets lucky and takes down the opponent with a really nasty blow. They aren't like fights in movies or books that drag out for the wow factor. Either you do what you can to win, or your opponent will beat you to it. For small folks, that means fighting smart and dirty, and learning to move in and out without getting hit.
Most people don't realize that those of us who were not especially vertically gifted deal with the rest of the world trying to take advantage of the perceived weakness of a smaller size practically from day one all the way to adulthood and beyond. It's one thing to dismiss a person who is smaller (and generally quicker- we HAVE to be, as we spend a good part of our growing up trying to avoid/fight off bullies of all stripes) as less of a threat, but the simple truth is that that person has probably had much more experience on the loosing side of fights, and as such has often learned how to turn that perceived weakness into advantage. I see elves doing this. They've had centuries of being attacked from all sides by humans, orcs, and even each other, to learn how to fight almost anyone effectively. If anything, they are so much better at fighting because they HAVE to be just to survive. And BTW, everyone talks about them hiding behind trees with bows and magic, but how often do we actually SEE that? Most of the elves I've read about use swords! They may sometimes use magic as well, but their first reaction in most fights is to whip out their blades. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 00:30:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the Eldreth Veluuthra, the fey'ri, and individuals like Elaith show that there's a lot more to elves than the always-right bastion of purity and faith.
That's an intriguing point. And, also, largely in-line with Ed's thinking on Elaith, as I recall. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 00:30:03
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Generally in D&D, the Sidhelien from Birthright, then the Aerenal.
I like the Aerenal as well. And the Undying Court for that matter. In fact, I've been tinkering with a baelnorn-like concept for the Aerenal elves of EBERRON. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 19:01:55
Wood elves are my favorites, closely followed by Moon elves.
Regarding the speed vs strength debate, I'd like to add that disabling the physiological function of a humanoid is all that it takes. The whole "6 milion ways to die, choose one" saying holds truth. So much so that real melee fights used to be settled in one or two hits.
Swordfighting is a very mechanical practise, having to deal with reach, center of balance, points of thrust or arcs of a cutting line. Positioning, timing and aggression plays a rather large part in winning duels in swordfights. Two handed weapons are great for landing powerful blows that are hard to deflect, increasing ones reach and delivering harrowing wounds. Using to big a weapon greatly hinders the skill with which they can be used though, as the cutting lines are more easily pushed of line and the ability to disengage or reposition is great hampered. This is ofset by smaller blades, that allow for higher mobility of both the postitioning and weapon stance, enhancing both defence as offence. Smaller swords allow for aggresive attacks, but should keep in mind that landing a hit must disable thoroughly, as a blow that fails to do so allows for an opportunity for a counterblow that can be deadly.
Speed was the main reason the foil became the weapon of choice for personal protection in the late middle ages. Elves would naturally have an advantage using lighter blades, and skirmish fighting using smart flanking tactics is a rather effective way of holding ones own in melee, especially against opponents that favor larger unwieldy weapons. I suspect that's the main reason orcs and trolls dont like elves that much. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 19:00:40
I don't have a blink dog in this fight (not that it's a fight), as I'm neither a particular fan nor a..."non-fan" I guess is the term, of elves. But I thought some of y'all would be amused by this paragraph from Sandstorm. The speaker, Cephas, was raised in isolation as a gladiatorial slave and most of what he knows about the world comes from a sort of natural philosopher orc woman named Grinta the Pike, who explained the races of the world to Cephas in terms of how to fight them.
quote:
"Elves," said Cephas, thinking of Grinta, his only previous source of information about the lands and peoples of Faerūn. "According to Grinta the orc they are the apostate get of the Demon Lord Corellon and the Mother of All Squirrels. They cower behind trees and shoot arrows. Swing at their knees."
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 18:49:50
Brain...hurts...must...move...on...
But seriously, as for Elves, the Forgotten Realms handles them very nicely...Crown Wars anyone?
That is actually one of my LIKES about the Forgotten Realms: the elves are not given the light of being "perfect" very often at all. Instead, they are often flawed, at war (often against each other!), inept fighters at times and etc.
I choose Gold Elves as my favorite just for those reasons. Powerful, yes...but also proud, arrogant, racist and so on. They are long-lived sure, but they continue to make mistakes. So why would I pick them as my favorite?
+1 INT, +1 DEX = fun wizard or thief (or both!) |
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