| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:50:51
I am very confused about thisnissue. The books and sources say tjey habe "black" skin colouring, but in pictures it is a darkish grey color. I mucj prefer the grey colour, but what does everyone else think? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zireael |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 13:10:33
I don't get the infrared, really... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 17:04:53
So, do they DREAM in infrared? (Points to anyone who gets the ref, lol!) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 00:07:55
I doubt Drow 'stare dreamily into each others eyes', regardless.  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 23:22:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dunno... Wouldn't Narbondel be too far away, from most parts of the city, for it to be used as a timepiece if this was the case?
I don't know if IR energy dissipates any faster than visible light (VL). If it does, then Narbondel might be too far away for most drow to see. But if IR basically behaves the same way that VL does, then I don't see why it would be too far. IR heat energy would radiate off of the pillar, and drow infra-rods/-cones would receive that IR energy, seeing the image.
I'm not sure how you're perceiving a problem there, Wooly.
quote:
Also, wouldn't this mean that two drow staring into each other's eyes would blind each other?
Well, yeah, if they are lasering their eyes really intently! 
I imagine that they wouldn't activate their laser emitters all the time. Usually, they could just detect the IR energy that is already being given off by their surroundings. Lasers require a lot of energy to power them, too, so that would have to be very taxing on an individual drow. I'm guessing they would only activate their laser eye emitters when there wasn't enough heat in the area, or if they wanted to get more contrast, etc.
It would be like shining a flashlight on something (except with IR instead of VL), when you already have low light, but you'd like to see it even better. You might distort your night vision in the process, but sometimes it's worth it. It's a judgment call. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 03:46:54
Heh, Hence the term "blinding beauty"..... LOL!! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 23:19:37
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I doubt drow eyes naturally glow; light sensors made from lit tissue would be very inefficient, assuming the sensor and glow spectra overlap. Of course, magics (like wizard sight) can make their eyes glow for a time.
They do have reflective eyeshine, as do cats and many other animals, mentioned frequently through various novels. This is not at all the same thing as having invisible beam emitters in their eyes.
RAS's drow definitely have been described as having telltale glowing red eyes. In The Legacy, those red eyes were the only thing that could be seen in the pitch black of some of Mithral Hall's lower tunnels.
How about this: Instead of IR beam emitters in their eyes, what if they had red laser beam emitters? Now, now, I know that initially sounds cheesy and clichéd. But think about it: their eyes could indeed be emitting red visible light, in highly concentrated form, and yet their infra-rods and infra-cones would actually be sensing IR radiation from objects in their surroundings.
As I understand it, most of the energy that gets to Earth from the sun is VL--not heat. The heat that we feel on the surface is the result of all that VL radiation being absorbed by objects on the surface, converted into IR radiation, and then being re-radiated back out into the atmosphere.
A laser works in a similar manner, in that it concentrates light into a narrow beam, strikes an object, and then the object absorbs some of the laser radiation, and then the concentrated VL is converted into IR, or heat.
This would allow drow eyes to have the glowing red eye effect, and avoid the problems from overlapping spectra, which you mentioned, Arik.
Dunno... Wouldn't Narbondel be too far away, from most parts of the city, for it to be used as a timepiece if this was the case? Also, wouldn't this mean that two drow staring into each other's eyes would blind each other? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 23:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I doubt drow eyes naturally glow; light sensors made from lit tissue would be very inefficient, assuming the sensor and glow spectra overlap. Of course, magics (like wizard sight) can make their eyes glow for a time.
They do have reflective eyeshine, as do cats and many other animals, mentioned frequently through various novels. This is not at all the same thing as having invisible beam emitters in their eyes.
RAS's drow definitely have been described as having telltale glowing red eyes. In The Legacy, those red eyes were the only thing that could be seen in the pitch black of some of Mithral Hall's lower tunnels.
How about this: Instead of IR beam emitters in their eyes, what if they had red laser beam emitters? Now, now, I know that initially sounds cheesy and clichéd. But think about it: their eyes could indeed be emitting red visible light, in highly concentrated form, and yet their infra-rods and infra-cones would actually be sensing IR radiation from objects in their surroundings.
As I understand it, most of the energy that gets to Earth from the sun is VL--not heat. The heat that we feel on the surface is the result of all that VL radiation being absorbed by objects on the surface, converted into IR radiation, and then being re-radiated back out into the atmosphere.
A laser works in a similar manner, in that it concentrates light into a narrow beam, strikes an object, and then the object absorbs some of the laser radiation, and then the concentrated VL is converted into IR, or heat.
This would allow drow eyes to have the glowing red eye effect, and avoid the problems from overlapping spectra, which you mentioned, Arik. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 04:00:50
Infravision art? I like it! I remember there being something like that mentioned in the Plot and Poison book. (Say what you will about OGL sources, but this is one of the BEST, IMO.) Paintings that look different in infravision than in normal light, things of that sort. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 21:40:22
Good idea. Markus. I was trying to provide examples which demonstrate fine applications of infravision; every single item has a different "colour" in infravision (when exposed to heat), just as it does in the visual spectrum (when exposed to light). There's really no need for specially prepared papers and inks, though drow can probably make such materials for spellbooks and artful illustration. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 21:04:29
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
<snip> Remember that infravision is heat based, so a drow might be able to read a book by running his hand across the pages, thus producing slightly different thermal colours wherever the dark ink absorbs heat and the paper doesn't. <snip>
Just WOW. 
{Markustay quickly grabs this post and runs off to his setting with it}
If you don't mind, that is - you just gave me the basis for an incredible piece of HB lore. The pages of a Drow book are made from a special, heat-resistant material (probably some lizard skin), and the ink is made from an alchemical formula that allows it to pick up residual heat quickly. Thus, all Drow books appear to be blank, but once you run your fingers over the text, it appears (to infravision) for a few seconds.
Bloody Genius!  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:51:21
Well last eve it appeared that my eyes glowed, reflection from window. My eyes appeared to be of a yellow color. *shrugs* First time I saw the effect, might be last. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:19:43
I doubt drow eyes naturally glow; light sensors made from lit tissue would be very inefficient, assuming the sensor and glow spectra overlap. Of course, magics (like wizard sight) can make their eyes glow for a time.
They do have reflective eyeshine, as do cats and many other animals, mentioned frequently through various novels. This is not at all the same thing as having invisible beam emitters in their eyes. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 19:52:02
*Curses the damn "Reset Fields" button. 2nd attempt to post!*
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I believe that the level of detail that the drow, in particular, can see in far surpasses our own technology. Although, having said that, I'm not sure if certain thermal imaging equipment is not capable of "seeing" down to fractions of a degree either.
The main problem with using RW thermal imaging equipment as an analog or example is that it is indirect or translational in nature, while drow infravision would be direct. Unlike drow, our human eyes don't see in infrared (IR)--we see in visible light (VL). Our tech takes an IR image and then translates it into VL, and then presents that VL image through a viewscreen or scope. And, as with everything, stuff gets lost in translation.
But just because our IR imaging tech is so limited, doesn't mean that drow infravision would similarly be, at all. Drow appear to see directly in the IR part of the spectrum. They do not appear to need any intermediary translational infrastructure or apparatus. (This is why I don't like MT's theory of an IR-filtering third eyelid for drow eyes). No translation = no loss of signal, no degradation of resolution, no excessive bleedover or washout, etc.
I have suggested that drow eyeballs contain organelles called "infra-rods" and "infra-cones" to allow them to see IR. In human eyes, rods are supposedly more sensitive to VL amplitude/brightness/grayscale contrast, and cones to frequency/color. Perhaps infra-rods are more sensitive to IR amplitude, intensity, or brightness; and infra-cones are more sensitive to IR frequency, wavelength, or color.
I don't have it all worked out, as I'm not a scientist. It is unclear to me what the practical difference would be between IR amplitude and frequency for a drow, as differences in heat are supposedly read as differences in color by drow. What does a hotter object have, in scientific terms: greater IR amplitude, or greater IR frequency?
I have also suggested that drow eyes might possess onboard IR beam emitters (hence the infamous glowing red eye effect). This would allow drow to see even in very cold environments. The IR emitting organelles within their eyes could "paint" an object or area, and then the infra-rods and infra-cones could detect differentials in the absorption and reflection characteristics of the substances, shapes, and textures on/within the object/area.
That would allow a drow to read a scroll or map even in the pitch black dark, or to navigate around even in a room that had been subjected to a freeze spell.
And after I've typed all this, I have just realized that it is possible that the glowing red eye effect might be the result of simple VL beam emitters in drow eyes, with some of the light lighting up the inside of their eyeballs, and this VL light could be what allows drow to have darkvision. It would be like flashlight eyes. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 11:08:48
I prefer darkvision to infravision (I had an excellent art from Elfwood portraying a meeting in darkvision...).
Keep in mind it works outside of normal light area, so a drow carrying a torch sees in the torch range in colorsand then 60 ft. past this in shades of gray. This explains the drow vanity. Faerie fire, small light spells and whatnot provide sufficient light for the drow to see in colors in their cities, and darkvision allows them to survive outside of them.
@ above: Darkvision does not rely on light being present, that is, it works when there's NO light at all. So that's not an issue. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 09:37:24
Perhaps drow adventurers and expeditions venturing away from populated centers simply need to add light sources to their usual supply lists, just as mariners or desert nomads require preparation for other essentials. Surface adventurers, too, need to bring light sources to navigate through the Underdark.
Plenty of magical items emit at least a little bit of light. As mentioned above, drow have access to all the usual light spells, torches, lanterns, and the like. They'd obviously augment their vision to drow-comfortable levels unless reason exists for stealth. They might in fact use modified light sources which are only visible to drow infravision/darkvision (RL military/security forces sometimes use infrared light sources, visible only to those equipped with infrared goggles). Their own body heat is probably sufficient to see in their immediate personal proximity, letting them tie their shoes, read maps, and sharpen their poisoned daggers; plus they can of course see each other. Drow sign language is given a range of 30', that might be the practical limit of their infravision in complete darkness.
Drow can of course use infravision and normal vision simultaneously, though with a few considerations, again the game rules were oversimplified. Just because somebody turns on a blue lightbulb doesn't mean you're suddenly "blind" insofar as seeing red objects. You might not see them as well, but you don't get penalized for having a wider range of sensitivity. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:58:59
Arik- the problem I see with low-light or "darkvision" is that that would really only work in the cities. Outside of their normally-traveled areas, where the luminescent fungi and fairie-fire are easy to find, they would indeed be virtually blind without some sort of light source. Underdark radiations are usually far from drow cities, for the simple reason that they interfere with some types of drow magic, like divinations or teleportation. So those would not be of much help. Away from cities, glowing fungi might be rare or simply hard to find, existing only in small isolated regions that are also frequented by creatures that feed on them, which in turn attract predators. Those areas would be dangerous for drow to travel in, so they would generally avoid them unless necessary. So the darkvision would only be useful in a city.
Even a casual look at the current thermo-imaging technology seems to lend it more credence as a viable way to see underground. All things give off some heat, even if it's only a very small amount. tunnel walls might have lava tubes running behind them, heating the rock itself, or there might be small amounts of phosphorescent minerals.Stone also retains heat quite well, so steam vents, passing creatures, and other things might leave heat traces in tunnels and caverns that drow could see. Incidentally, UV light is also generated by some radioactive minerals as well as stars, so that might not be so useless underground, either. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:54:51
Generally speaking I consider myself a reasonable GM. I listen to my players, work with them so everyone involved has a good time.
This is just one of the things I will not budge on. Creatures do not get infravision in my games. Its too much of a head ache to deal with. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:34:25
lol - the main problem with the thermographics from Predator is that they're a quarter-century behind current state of the art, plus they're dollied up by Hollywood so people unfamiliar with infrared can still easily recognize the imagery. We also understand that a living brain can learn to process the data much better than any of our current (and projected) technological developments. A drow toddler using infravision can probably recognize fine details like fingerprints just as well as we can using visual light.
Remember that infravision is heat based, so a drow might be able to read a book by running his hand across the pages, thus producing slightly different thermal colours wherever the dark ink absorbs heat and the paper doesn't. A drow can easily follow people around through their residual heat traces in the air, footprints, touched surfaces ... he can probably also tell how recent these signatures are and perhaps use them to identify type, number, or even specific individuals. He can easily determine if an object has been recently handled by simple visual inspection. He can tell if someone is feverish, fatigued, exerted, or chilled by simply looking at their body temperature. His eyesight isn't as accurate as a digital thermometer but it's probably not far off. He essentially gains all the information about heat/cold from his eyesight that we do from our sense of touch; he can even tell if his cookies have finished baking. It should also be remembered that elves of all kinds are noted for their superior visual acuity.
Some substances (like glass) are visually transparent but block infrared light, so a glass windowpane would look like a smooth "black" wall (or "gray" wall if some infrared light can still pass through). Other substances (like black garbage bags) are opaque to visual light yet entirely transparent (nearly invisible) to infravision, just like the black plastic "window" on your remote control that covers the IRED emitters. Of course a drow might still be able to "see" objects in both infrared and visual spectrums (at least red-spectrum) so hiding behind a sheet of glass might not always work very well. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:21:34
I use darkvision simply because I like the idea of people living in a black and white movie. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:19:07
1E drow actually saw through ultravision. Though, UV-spectrum light would be entirely absent in an underground environ, since it's generated by sun and stars.
Low-light might not be as unfeasible as it seems. A little drow faerey fire goes a long way when combined with efficient light amplification eyeballs. There's also bioluminescence from all sorts of creatures, including fungi and molds which the drow specifically cultivate for this purpose. The strange magical Underdark radiations might also generate some tiny amount of light, even if only as intermittent faint sparkles. Plus the drow had access to fire, lanterns, and magical light spells even before they were cast into the darkness (possibly explaining why their nightvision has "evolved" into a half-useless form). Even basic (thermal) infravision is still good enough for drow to see each other and most of the common Underdark creatures.
Darkvision is a poor attempt to explain the simple fact that drow can see stuff in the dark. You can always ignore the letter (the bad physics) and accept the spirit (handwaved "magic") of darkvision as what it's intended to be. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:16:35
Snakes also gain quite a bit of their sensory information through smell/taste with the forked tongue. All they need to know "is it an orange blob" Yes? "does it smell like food?" Yes? They eat it. "is it an orange blob shaped like me?" Yes. "Does it smell like it wants to have a good time?" Yes. They mate with it.
Drow interactions are slightly more complex than that. Only slightly, but still. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:14:50
No links, sorry. I have been saving them, but a simple Google search will turn up much. Look for thermal imaging or photography. Bats, cats, rats, whatever. Even snakes and spiders. The exoskeleton insulates them, but they can be seen in astonishing detail. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:08:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWxMj64sKgM&feature=related
There's a good video for infravision. The main problem with Predator (one of my favorite movies, btw) is that in a jungle, the ambiant heat would render the humans near invisible. In a cave, everything but the other person would be difficult to impossible to distinquish. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:05:06
Do you have any links to those? I'd like to see some of those pics. Snakes in particular (viper family, at least) seem to have very good heat-seeing abilities.
This might also explain the most common drow eye colors. Most reptiles have reddish or gold-colored eyes. And drow do as well. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 08:02:50
I don't know how true that is CoA. The SFX in Predator were pretty close to what we see through a thermal camera, at close range. I've been collecting thermal photographs for some time for use in my Underdark campaign, and the level of detail is surprising. I have one of a house cat where you can actually see individual hairs and while background are for the most part a uniform color, much detail and contour can be made out. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:58:08
Part of the reason is that darkvision is easier to imagine than infravision. Most people think of Predator when they think of infrared. That's not what it really looks like.
Actual infravision in a cave wouldn't be much more advantagous than stumbling around blind. You'd be able to see living creatures, but you wouldn't be able to see(with much detail) walls, rocks, obstacles in the cave. You wouldn't even be able to see much in the way of detail of other people from any sort of distance; they'd just look like red/orange blobs in the shape of a person. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:55:50
Infravision has always made more sense to me as well. I believe that the level of detail that the drow, in particular, can see in far surpasses our own technology. Although, having said that, I'm not sure if certain thermal imaging equipment is not capable of "seeing" down to fractions of a degree either. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:48:16
Agreed, MT. The Darkvision version makes little sence when there is no light to begin with. Maybe they were thinking of all that lovely fairie-fire the drow are so fond of using when they came up with it? They put the stuff on EVERYTHING. Perhaps they figured there would be natural fairie-fire ouside the cities, too. Or little fairie-fire signs or way-markers. I dunno. I prefer the infravision, myself. Most creatures that see in the dark either do it through heat, or echos, or heavy rod and cone placement. Darkvision would let a srow see about as well as a cat in darkness, but even cat's can't see in total darkness. Infravision would make them see more like a viper. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:38:03
In the Illithiad, it is stated that Undead are feared by Mindflayers, because they can't see them (and they are unnaturally quiet as well).*
If that is true, then the same should apply to Drow. A Drow vampire would be a terror to other Drow, worse then human versions of same.
Of course, 3e retconed Infravision to Darkvision so that no longer applies (I still prefer the old version - it gave nearly all underdark natives a very crucial weakness, which offset their normal over-poweredness compared to surface dwellers). Cave darkness is TOTAL - Darkvision makes no sense, because their is NO light to amplify. Infravision or sonics (tremor sense) should be the norm for subterranean creatures. The drow darkness ability was designed to counter attacks by light, because Infravision could be blinded by a burst of light. Now light just becomes a bit of a nuisance.
*Illithids can usually 'see' non-warm creatures by detecting their minds, but most undead are mindless, and the ones that aren't are not subject to mental detection (their dead brains can't be read by Flayers). |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 07:37:29
Only if red orcs run faster. |
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