| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 12:57:52
Karsus is a very intrigueing character from the realms but he's not the only power hungry Magic user that ever lived. There are plenty of liches that i find more interesting them him, Szass Tam to name just one. But i ask again why all the hype? He's not as famous as the Blackstaff or Elminster so why do people love this one hit wonder so much? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 14:24:21
Some elves had little to no problem with the Netherese. In fact, the druids and elves who once populated the city of Delia agreed with Lady Polaris's wish to elevate it. (Though, they grew "disillusioned" and soon left for more ground-based surroundings.) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:58:28
Elves generally avoided Netherese (humans), especially the floating cities. The mythallars caused nausea, headaches, and interference with (magical) elven racial abilities. I suppose some lived on the ground, but again, they'd be subject to intermittent annoying/hazardous exposure to mythallars. Plus they probably withdrew from Netheril-below's ever-increasing farmlands to go hide in their woods. Elves as a society tended to have a long view on things, seeing the Netherese as being immature, arrogant, reckless, dangerous, and prone to treating magic and nature as consumable resources instead of as organic systems deserving respect. The Netherese practices of levitating mountains and controlling weather worried the elves deeply.
Once they got jumpstarted, the Netherese (humans) proudly viewed themselves as superior to everybody else, including elves. Everything they could possibly ever need could be discovered from the Nether Scrolls, even after "somebody" stole one of the two sets. The floating cities were almost exclusively populated by humans, the lands below a little less exclusively. Humans living outside of Netheril tended to be barbarians, fearful and suspicious of magic. Other humans living in places like Cormanthor were generally taught magic by the elves and so more attuned and palatable to elven sensibilities.
The Netherese arcanists exemplified Netheril's proud arrogance, and Karsus was foremost among them. He probably had no interest in elves whatsoever, beyond perhaps an idle interest in differing magical implementations. Anyone could clearly see that Netherese magic was superior and more innovative than anything the elves could manage.
I expect not very many half-elves in Netheril, since the two parent races tended to not interact on friendliest terms or more than strictly necessary. Dwarves pretty much stayed in their holes, mostly mining and forging as usual. They traded with ever-consuming Netheril, probably giving away more resources than they would have liked. Gnomes are hardly mentioned. A handful of interesting NPCs were gnomes, that's about it. Halflings seemingly didn't exist at all, at least not within the floating cities. Massive orc hordes would charge out of the mountains in great waves, then suffer from waves of determined orc-exterminating genocide, much as orcs are traditionally expected to do. Some populations of stone giants and various dragons also lived in the area, but seem to not be worth much mention. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:53:46
Most likely. For him, everyone else was his lesser.
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:32:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just wondering....
How did Karsus view the elves? Did he respect them for teaching magic to his ancestors? Despise them for some unknown reason?
I think he may have thought very little of them, basically aknowledging that they helped his ancestors initially, but their limited view of magic's potential was a sign of weakness and that he surpassed them vastly (all in his view). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:00:46
Just wondering....
How did Karsus view the elves? Did he respect them for teaching magic to his ancestors? Despise them for some unknown reason? |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:46:42
Im glad everyone Is really getting into this discussion. Karsus really is a bigger than life character that has a lot of interesting quirks. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:10:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No.
It may not be the most powerful, but its "popularity," as well its denizens, both dead and alive, [Telamont, Larloch, Karsus, Ioulaum, among many others] far outstripped the others.
Tis' true what Dennis says. Netheril didn't reach the same scope of power as a nation (Karsus however surpassed them on an individual basis), but nevertheless, it was highly regarded as such by its citizens, and its downfall for more, shall we say, visually entertaining, which adds to the fun/popularity factor.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 09:11:02
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No.
It may not be the most powerful, but its "popularity," as well its denizens, both dead and alive, [Telamont, Larloch, Karsus, Ioulaum, among many others] far outstripped the others. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 03:05:06
I think an important flaw in your otherwise fine arguments, Therise, is that Candlekeep is not a place frequented by "most people". Many people want to believe in *really* *unbelievable* *strange* *things* which make Karsus seem quite mundane in comparison. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 02:22:13
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
Did any of those people directly challenge a god? Did any of them have part of their stolen divinity fall to the earth as a stone that was used millenia later by people that knew him? Do we live in a world with travelling bards telling the tales of legend? His story is the stuff of legends. Why would anyone think Karsus would be an obscure figure? He's not a pope or a king, he's the equivalent of Alexander the Great or Ghengis Khan . A man who in his case literally shook the foundations of their world. His act is the kind that is remembered for a very, very long time after his death (and again, he may only be remembered as a supreme fool). A dumb as dirt peasant likely wouldn't know his name. People that dumb in this world have no idea who Alexander the Great is, but that isn't evidence that he is unknown. I don't believe everyone in the Realms knows his biography by heart or anything. I do believe that anyone who knows anything of importance about the past that lives in the Realms knows about Karsus.
As for using logic, anyone who is in a field related to his work that doesn't know about Nikola Tesla needs to educate themselves. They are a product of the worship of Edison and his apparently effective smear campaign. People who don't know about Tesla are victims of being misinformed. I don't know of anyone actively trying to cover up Karsus' history and achievements. Most people aren't rushing to take credit from someone else for bringing down their own empire.
I could be wrong. However, I find it very hard to believe that people would forget the name of the man who's act caused the death of the god of magic. The death of a god, brought about by a mortal, is a world shattering event that would be remembered for ages. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:29:27
Nae good saer! Peace! I meant no offense; I only remark that when it comes to the 'Realms, 'tis easy to take a thing such as this and add ones own 'Clack'...eh?
In the Realms, a sourcebook could say, "All unicorn have horns," and indeed one could find a scribe who would'st state,
"Nae, the book dost nae say 'Keruth, Unicorn Lord of Unthwood' has a horn, so we can'nae surmise that, aye, Keruth has a horn.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
There's no reason to be rude. Gees.
But my mistake, I never read that series.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:21:26
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
There's no reason to be rude. Gees.
But my mistake, I never read that series. |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:20:40
What is the question that you are trying to answer logically, Therise?
Is the question you are trying to surmise, logically, "Is it possible for a person in the modern age to name an individual who lived over 1000 years ago?"
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
|
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:17:31
Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Kuje
... [Alashar] basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember.
I believe she birthed twelve Princes of Shade. And was eventually murdered by the eldest, Prince Rivalen, as a sacrifice to Shar.
Aye, but it never says that it was her exactly, and I remember a post by that author and in it he stated that he never thought about if that was her or not. It's buried here in Keep somewhere.
|
| Therise |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:16:58
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Kuje
... [Alashar] basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember.
I believe she birthed twelve Princes of Shade. And was eventually murdered by the eldest, Prince Rivalen, as a sacrifice to Shar.
Aye, but it never says that it was her exactly, and I remember a post by that author and in it he stated that he never thought about if that was her or not. It's buried here in Keep somewhere.
Edit: Looked back through Paul's replies and I was wrong, he did say it was her. So I misremembered. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:57:22
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
Sure, Telamont might remember him, perhaps even Telamont's sons might remember him. But that doesn't mean the majority (or even a minority beyond that family's members) would remember him. Most shadowvar are long-lived, but we are talking hundreds of years. And most of Shade's citizens aren't shadowvar.
Besides, Karsus has been long dead, hundreds of years. Out of sight, out of mind. People are talking about Karsus like he's still alive and plotting. But the truth is, only a rare few would even remember the legend much less think about it on a daily basis. Most people on Faerun would not even know the name.
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:49:17
quote:
Kuje
... [Alashar] basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember.
I believe she birthed twelve Princes of Shade. And was eventually murdered by the eldest, Prince Rivalen, as a sacrifice to Shar. |
| Therise |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:22:09
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
Sure, Telamont might remember him, perhaps even Telamont's sons might remember him. But that doesn't mean the majority (or even a minority beyond that family's members) would remember him. Most shadowvar are long-lived, but we are talking hundreds of years. And most of Shade's citizens aren't shadowvar.
Besides, Karsus has been long dead, hundreds of years. Out of sight, out of mind. People are talking about Karsus like he's still alive and plotting. But the truth is, only a rare few would even remember the legend much less think about it on a daily basis. Most people on Faerun would not even know the name.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm willing to bet they were friends, insofar as Karsus's screwy social capacities would allow.
They were friends according to the Netheril box set. Hells, Karsus even married Shadow and Alashar but she basically disappeared and WOTC never told us what happened to her, as far as I remember. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one?
You're referring to Karsus' repository? If so, I think that's the only one that's been referenced so far. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 19:59:56
Telamont Tanthul (then called Shadow) actually learned magic at the Karsus academy for magic. He published a radical thesis about demiplanes which generated extreme controversy and opposition (along with the threat of death or exile) from his peers. Karsus offered Shadow sanctuary and magical protection so he could continue his research, thus forming the Shadow Consortium where Shadow (and his team of epic-tier "underground" researchers) studied for at least eleven years before publishing a less heretical model of planar mechanics. Karsus was fascinated by planar mechanics and Shadow's work, plus both of them were specialized as Mentalists — it seems quite likely they often worked together closely. Karsus even personally oversaw Shadow's marriage ceremony. He was almost certainly involved in convincing Netheril of Shadow's "death" at the hands of an assassin (who was in fact now Shadow's wife), even building a public shrine at the Consortium. I'm willing to bet they were friends, insofar as Karsus's screwy social capacities would allow.
As for the cautionary tale ...quote:
"Priests and priestesses of the new goddess of magic were told the story of Karsus in dreams and visions when they prayed for spells. It was Mystra’s attempt to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again."
(Of course, Midnight-Mystra or her successors might have discontinued this practice.) |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 18:57:09
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
Not to say he will likely be worshipped there, but I am certain Shade will always remember him and Shade seems to be an ever spreading influence. Telamont actually knew the guy. I think they are more likely to look on him as someone who misstepped and try to learn from his failure than to look down on him. Even though he did fail, he was quite powerful while he lived and had the nerve to challenge the god of magic for supremacy. That's enough for some people. Folks look back to the glories of ancient empires in our world and they see the monuments or how large the empire was, but they don't always care that in the end it failed. Yes his defeat hurt magic users, but it also showed everyone that the gods can be challenged by mortals. Maybe it will just take better planning next time (like not using magic against the god of magic). I don't think he would be worshipped by many (if any), but I believe he would be remembered as a cautionary tale so his name would live on.
As a side note, isn't there a chamber that used to house a Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster? Is there anything saying that was the only one? |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 17:57:40
Therise
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank You Therise, my sentiments exactly!
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 17:40:58
And I should like to ask that we stop making comparisons to people who may or may not have existed in the real world. That's a real easy way for a really ugly debate to get started. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 16:32:07
I've never really understood the Karsus love, but then there have been other scribes who obsessed over/promoted other beings like Vhaeraun, or Moradin, or several others I'm blanking on right now. I just took it as one of the Keep's more endearing weirdnesses. They don't generally derail threads, so I don't have a problem with them.
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No. |
| Therise |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 16:19:07
Frankly, Karsus is way over-discussed IMO. Yes, he was a mage that managed to steal Mystryl's power for a few seconds (and then he died).
He was fairly well known during the age he lived, and his name would have been reviled in the period afterwards (considering that he caused the damage to Netheril that led to the entire nation's demise).
But hundreds of years later, he would have been completely forgotten (probably even in Halruaa). Known perhaps to a few sages, his story is one of failure and massive tragedy. Why people would want to worship such a massive failure is beyond me.
Fast-forward to the 4E era, even fewer people would remember the failed wannabe deity. Why? Because Halruaa, where he was perhaps known to a few historian sages, is utterly gone.
So yeah... all these threads about Karsus are indicative of a few people here who like the story (and that's fine, enjoy the legend).
But in the Realms he would hardly be remembered, much less worshipped. People tend to worship success, and well...
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 15:06:34
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's true that you may not like Karsus. Or may not be familiar with Karsus. Or might simply be annoyed that others talk so much about Karsus. That doesn't diminish Karsus (or other peoples's opinions about him) in any way. It's true that FR authors haven't written a lot about Karsus, but what little has been written is still fascinating to some people. I suspect some of the appeal of this character is the fact that so much has never been said about him; we are forced to contemplate and speculate about Karsus instead of just reading a novel about him mixing it up with a handful of popular heroes.
Even were there many novels written about him, I doubt his popularity will diminish. His achievements and mistakes are equally entertaining. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:50:56
Ah, well then ... Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Dirty Harry, Captain Kirk. What I was trying to say is that, whether they be real or not, dudes from the past can still have a significant impact on us. People talk about the dudes, think about them, quote them, emulate them, in some cases even worship them with almost religious fervour. If your life is memorable and you accomplish great things (good or evil) that impress upon history, then you can still change the world (even if you're dead, or even if you're only a fiction). I wouldn't dismiss dudes from the past; there's good reason we remember them. Dismissing the deeds and accomplishments of Karsus simply because he's ancient history is just as invalid as dismissing those of Caesar, Da Vinci, Bach, or Shakespeare. Dismissing Karsus simply because he's fictional is just as invalid as dismissing Frankenstein, Lancelot, Batman, or Thor ... or Elminster. All generalizations are mistaken.
It's true that you may not like Karsus. Or may not be familiar with Karsus. Or might simply be annoyed that others talk so much about Karsus. That doesn't diminish Karsus (or other peoples's opinions about him) in any way. It's true that FR authors haven't written a lot about Karsus, but what little has been written is still fascinating to some people. I suspect some of the appeal of this character is the fact that so much has never been said about him; we are forced to contemplate and speculate about Karsus instead of just reading a novel about him mixing it up with a handful of popular heroes. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 14:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Synthalus
I can't wait to read about the next Karsus esk character that changes the realms forever such as he did.
Cyric murdered Mystra, which caused the spellplague. Although not a genius like Karsus, he did change the realms forever with that act. |
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