| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 20:31:14
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| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 02:56:17
In the situation of the artifact above, if I were either of those ancient and mighty beings, I wouldn't bother with the War Wizards at all. Instead I would use my resources (which are considerable considering I could infiltrate the War Wizards without them knowing despite their constant mind checks and other inquiries) to identify and abduct lone mages from the surrounds. I would aim for the most powerful ones I would feel comfortable with. Lesser wizards I would drive into "ranches" using magical domination and the like. Maybe promises of power would be even better for the middling and more powerful ones. These disappearances would be spaced out and implemented over the course of years. The victims would be chosen for their isolation.
Why aim for an organization that tries very hard to ensure the loyalty of its members with regularly scheduled magical interrogations when you can pick up ill defended loners. My time would be better spent actually encouraging the training of new mages, hopefully culminating in a large number of them by the time I need them consumed.
Now the point becomes to hide the purposes of an increase in wizards idling about. This is where controlling a few members of the War Wizards might throw off suspicion. However, the dragon or lich do not need the mages for any illicit activities so they might not show up on the War Wizard watch list. The manipulator just need a way to drive all the loners like lemmings into the locale at the right time. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 02:41:17
Hm... to start with the red dragon... one possible thing to consider, a dragon often likes to take a very long and not always humanoid method of infiltration. Many dragons of extrreme age and power like to work through "family" of sorts. If it's not too weird for your campaign, the dragon could have developed / bred a line of loyal humans that actually have some draconic DNA. They're family of a kind, bred to be mages of some power, that have been slowly infiltrating the Wizards of War. They'd be ultimately loyal to their patriarchal dragon, because he literally is their great-great-great-granddragon. In Cormyr, the partial draconics could have been carefully bred into a merchant family, trained in Cormyrean mage schools, all for the purpose of serving their family one day. And they could even have some special abilities related to red dragons, who knows?
With the lich of Netherese origin, for the most part we tend to think of them as isolationists in some buried, deep and ancient hall. But why not have this lich be someone that has polymorphed himself to regular human form? Perhaps it is a special, and undetectable polymorph due to specialized Netherese research he has done. He could even "age" over time and then have a "son" or "cousin" take over the reins of his family. In this way, he could be a proper and otherwise loyal-appearing wizard of war from a noble family. Perhaps originally he killed a nobleman's son and "stepped into" their family (becoming the heir). With a long-unfolding plan, he might have even apprenticed in a traditional Cormyrean wizard college, impressing his tutors with his rapid and impressive abilities. Yet underneath it all, though he is a highly placed Wizard of War, he is really an old lich of Netherese origins. He would have underlings that would logically follow him within the WoW network, because they're all one big happy group of wizards that are loyal to the crown. Given his survival since the fall of Netheril, 45 years or so is nothing to spend. He could be friendly and amiable, or he could be any personality you'd like. And a big part of society. With who knows how many secret labs and caches of Netherese treasure all over the Realms.
Anyway, just some ideas. Feel free to use or modify, or pass.
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| crazedventurers |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:52:24
What I needed to do was to turn the simmering politic issues into all out war and these are some of the actions that happened:
1) the WoW had become paralysed by Vangy's constant micro-managing of them and many of them could not function in the new less restrictive regime of Caladnehast, err Caladnei, so they stopped doing what they should do and became insular and lazy.
2) the Banites had infiltrated Eagles Peak and the Temple of Torm there, slowly turning the LN worshippers to a very fundamentalist doctrine of LAW which had spread into High Horn as well (including WoW as well as purple dragons)
3) The powerful entity I mention in my previous post had created a relic called the Orb of Storms, something that appeared in dreams to those who had some power (WoW, purple dragon officiers, crown lords etc) showing them what would happen if they embraced the Orb and how it would sweep away all the corruption they had to deal with every day. Some of them saw this clensing as a good thing and worked to use the Orb to dispose of the chaos and evil they could not deal with in the official channels.
4) Various lesser noble familes fell in behind the Wyvernspurs asking for a change in the way that Cormyr was ruled by the senior Silver families. The Wyvernspurs are strongly aligned to the church of Tymora in Arabel and support the High Priest in his calls for a Barony of Tymora. Unbeknownst to most is that The Wyvern Crown of Cormyr has been recovered and sits on the Head of Earl Wyvernspur directing his actions and sowing the dissension between the noble familes.
5) The all powerful entity has a foot soldier working for him called Loki and has set him the task of corrupting Cormyr and its people (probably just for fun).
6) So two artifacts are goading different factions/religions into actions against each other, coupled with peoples greed and ambition resulted in the civil war. Those WoW that had not been corrupted were quickly targetted by one side or the other, first to join them, then if they did not as an enemy, paralysed by a lack of leadership and personal feuding the WoW ended up fighting themselves more often than the real enemies.
7) add into the mix, exiled noble familes, sembia trade interests, Zhentarim influence, the very wealthy and ambitious merchant class, the legitimacy issue of the Regency and Azoun V, fear and paranoia from commoners, a series of crop failures etc etc etc and Cormyr is on its knees, at which point the newly rolled up player characters
make their appearance...... 
So yes the prime mover has a very long game in mind, a game that involves multple relics/artifacts/other powers in driving the plan forward, a plan that has been in fruition since before the fall of netheril and one that echoes into the far future of Faerun
Cheers
Damian
EDIT: The real key to any successful attempt on co-opting the WoW is to take over the Alaphorns, without them on your side there will always be a chance that they will spot something going on and act swiftly and decisively in eradicating the threat. Of course Ed has already supplied us with a vehicle to do this in the form of the unicorn ring wearing wizard from the Knights trilogy  |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:18:27
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
You viewed the growth of the War Wizards with passing interest when their order was established, but soon came to believe you could use this large group of human wizards to your advantage.
What an excellent question and one I had to wrestle with in the ongoing campaign I am running (20 years this year!).
I set in motion a civil war in Cormyr after Azoun IV died and had to work out why the Wizards of War would 'allow' this to happen rather than stepping in and resolving the issue.
Campaign overview:
An extremeley powerful being is intent on supporting chaos (and evil) in the hopes that law (and good) band together to eradicate it. The long term goal is a world of law not chaos, a world that will one day change (probably 100,000 years from 1370DR) and rebel against the tyranny of law and usher in the final cataclysm as all beings denounce law after the oppression of the last 100K years.
How: by constantly attacking/undermining lawful and good realms using proxies, agents, ambitious groups and individuals to sow chaos constantly thus ensuring that disparate lawful/good groups/churches states etc join together in the crusade against chaos.
How this relates to Cormyr circa 1380 DR (the start for the new PC's):
I wondered where all the goblins and gazneths and other nasties/oportunisits went to after the Death dragon was killed by Azoun IV and decided they hid in the stonelands (and breed and flourished and in 1380DR came raiding again). I also wondered what would happen with the ambitious nobles, merchants, clergy etc in the power structure as Alusair took over. In my game the wizards and warriors of the west are strongly aligned to Torm via Eagles Peak and other churches of Torm nearby that oppose the evil of the stonelands and the Zhentish influence in the Tun. This is balanced by the rising power of Tymora in Arabel and the east and the demands of the high priest that he deserves at least a Barony as Tymora did choose his temple during the ToT (thanks to Ed for that clack from an old polyhedron).
Add into this the old versus new nobility and we have a simmering melting pot of politics, religion and power.
I'll continue in my next post
Cheers
Damian |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 00:11:18
Ah, very interesting concept. I have some ideas, but a couple questions first:
1. Will the two BBEGs know about each others' interest in, and knowledge of, said Sarrukh items? Or might one know of the other, with the second somewhat oblivious to the first?
2. In addition to the magic-annihilating effects in the year 1360, will there be any bleedover of effects through time? For example, a large but slowly coalescing sphere of weak magic-inhibition effects happening as early as 1200... then having the field shrink over time but grow more powerful (i.e. by 1360 it is capable of killing-absorbing mages within the radius of the pre-existing object)?
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:45:57
In character?! Apparently, you've never met my characters. And I was thinking pre-Spellplague, actually. But since they brought up those undead... *shrugs* but it I WAS an evil fiend with a nefarious agenda, I'd use my power to create a lot of public works projects, and improve trade and culture- cuase who wants to rule a bunch of poverty-stricken, poor yokels with no concept of culture?! Plus, it has the added bonus of making them love you- so that when adventuring do-gooders come along to try to oust you from your comfy of power, all the people rise up against them to beat them senseless!!! |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:38:53
Psssh! So Serious!
Long-lasting evil masterminds can't forget to keep the laughter in slaughter (and it's good for the complexion). But, as you wish... clinical analysis and advice only.
Honestly, though, I think much of the specific methods for infiltration would depend on the nature of your immortal or undying mastermind, and their goals.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:35:55
MrM:
Assuming Ed (in the following new Elminter novels) will restore the WoW to their former glory, I might consider subverting the WoW. Alystra's KISS works fine with me. Also, I'd employ Tam's tactic in Unclean. Two tharachions tried to infiltrate Rashemen using stealth, and were shocked when an army of Rashemi witches and warriors looked "prepared" in repelling them. Tam "miraculously" appeared from nowhere, freezing the river, as well as some Rashemi warriors, so the armies of the two ambitious but stupid tharachions could retreat to safety. Of course, it was him who leaked the intelligence about the attack.
I could do something like that. I would appear like a hero to the WoW. I would crush "some" of their enemies using my agents, and if necessity requires, by myself. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:19:46
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm, does that mean I'll see you both at the monthly Villainous Mastermind meeting? We really MSU all get together and compare notes!! My minions are all DYING for some E-VIL mayhem to wreak!
**GASP!** The first rule of the Mastermind Club is...!!! 
quote:
MrM: See, there's the rub with your question. My nefarious plans ALWAYS involve taking over the whole ikt and kaboodle. but not where anyone would ever notice, mind you. I go by the KISS rule of villainous schemes- Keep It Subtle Stupid. charms would only be used on low-level potential lackeys to gain friendship, suggestions to convince said lackeys that my ideas are reasonable (delivered through some medium that would go virtually unnoticed, of course), and for the rest, I would use good old persuasion, bribery, and hand-picking my own allies to infiltrate the War Wizards. Once I replace those incompetant fools with some more intelligent and malleable minions, I will have achieved my goal of turning the War wiazards to my own purpose- which is, of course, to eradicate those pesky Harpers and Chosen. MWAHAHAHAHA!!!
Completely agree. Though the grapevine would suggest that that hack Manshoon has the final few Chosen on the ropes.
That said, if you can trick those goody goody Harpers into openly attacking the Wizards of War, that could be VERY amusing.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm, if you two are interested in a three-way allainace, I could use my influence to get those annoying Harpers to go kick his arse (thus keeping them out of OUR hair) and I'll take all those undead of of everyone's hands.
Whatever assistance you could provide is welcome. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:10:32
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Question: you wouldn't go (or advise using) the magic item to force mind control or mind control via spell route? I.e., something more subtle and less susceptible to the failures and weaknesses of lesser, short lived beings?
I wouldn't. Item magic is too unreliable since the "event" - particularly with the new batches of pesky adventurers swarming about. And once freed, it can blossom into something way too dramatic that can threaten exposure of the main plan.
I'd only rely on spells for mind control if you're -personally- the one casting the spell.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:08:28
Hmm, if you two are interested in a three-way allainace, I could use my influence to get those annoying Harpers to go kick his arse (thus keeping them out of OUR hair) and I'll take all those undead of of everyone's hands.
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| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:06:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dennis, you old undying bag of bones from 1E! How you managed immortality without decay is intriguing, though perhaps one day I'll learn your secrets.
Not even the gods know my secrets.
You relentless tease!
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Or perhaps, treaty with me and I won't interfere with your plans with Aglarond and Thay. We can do lunch, talk about the kids, trade some artifacts. How's about a tenday from now?
Hmm, I will consider that. But first, I have to have to attend that parley with Telamont tomorrow. You see, Shade and I forged an alliance, albeit, of course, an uneasy one. We're both sick and tired of the Realms' Ultimate Cockroach. Together, we obliterated his clones, but it appears like for some reason one escaped our grasp.
Say hi to Telly for me. He's done a nice job with Sembia, so little loss of profit, and he managed to circumvent Shar in the process.
And I totally agree. Manshoon was barely tolerable when he was alive, his whole vampire clone idea was seriously over the top. Effective, but too much drama.
Txt me, we'll talk about Thay. That place went from classy to nasty way too fast, and all those undead filth should get the permanent boot to the head. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 23:05:12
Hmm, does that mean I'll see you both at the monthly Villainous Mastermind meeting? We really MSU all get together and compare notes!! My minions are all DYING for some E-VIL mayhem to wreak!
MrM: See, there's the rub with your question. My nefarious plans ALWAYS involve taking over the whole ikt and kaboodle. but not where anyone would ever notice, mind you. I go by the KISS rule of villainous schemes- Keep It Subtle Stupid. charms would only be used on low-level potential lackeys to gain friendship, suggestions to convince said lackeys that my ideas are reasonable (delivered through some medium that would go virtually unnoticed, of course), and for the rest, I would use good old persuasion, bribery, and hand-picking my own allies to infiltrate the War Wizards. Once I replace those incompetant fools with some more intelligent and malleable minions, I will have achieved my goal of turning the War wiazards to my own purpose- which is, of course, to eradicate those pesky Harpers and Chosen. MWAHAHAHAHA!!! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:56:26
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Have you read Elminster Must Die! yet? The War Wizards are shown to be about as effective as the old Keystone Kops.
Not in my Realms.
Haven't read that book yet; still have a New Year's backlog of books waiting for me to read. Yours is the 2nd question in that specific regard. Maybe I ought to get Elminster Must Die and let it cut in line, eh?
Be warned: The WoW in that book are mere pathetic shadows/ghosts of the ones in the Cormyr novels---literally and figuratively. You can only hope that in the succeeding books Ed would provide a vessel for Vangey's spirit so he could once again lead the WoW to greatness. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:54:16
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Have you read Elminster Must Die! yet? The War Wizards are shown to be about as effective as the old Keystone Kops.
Not in my Realms.
Haven't read that book yet; still have a New Year's backlog of books waiting for me to read. Yours is the 2nd question in that specific regard. Maybe I ought to get Elminster Must Die and let it cut in line, eh?
Indeed, I'd move it to the top of the list. It is rather eye-opening.
The only Realms that truly matter are our own.
And since that is the case with your Realms, and your WoW are not the same as those in canon 4E, I'll expand a bit more.
Whatever the ultimate purposes of the unnamed evil mastermind, you'd probably want them to have plants or infiltrators in multiple levels of the organization (who also are not aware of their ties to your mastermind). Not only does this cut down on misinformation due to singular perspectives, it broadens the utility of what you are learning and how you can utilize your minions.
Periodically test their loyalties. Keep them on a short leash with respect to rewards you offer for service. And periodically, have them do things that improve their image within the WoW. Such things keep suspicions down, until you're ready to play that particular chess piece.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:47:45
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Dennis, you old undying bag of bones from 1E! How you managed immortality without decay is intriguing, though perhaps one day I'll learn your secrets.
Not even the gods know my secrets.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Or perhaps, treaty with me and I won't interfere with your plans with Aglarond and Thay. We can do lunch, talk about the kids, trade some artifacts. How's about a tenday from now?
Hmm, I will consider that. But first, I have to attend that parley with Telamont tomorrow. You see, Shade and I forged an alliance, albeit, of course, an uneasy one. We're both sick and tired of the Realms' Ultimate Cockroach. Together, we obliterated his clones, but it appears like for some reason one escaped our grasp. |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:26:10
Dennis, you old undying bag of bones from 1E! How you managed immortality without decay is intriguing, though perhaps one day I'll learn your secrets. Don't forget that the Witches of Rashemen have long been mine. Infiltrate them at your peril.
Or perhaps, treaty with me and I won't interfere with your plans with Aglarond and Thay. We can do lunch, talk about the kids, trade some artifacts. How's about a tenday from now? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:20:12
I read Elminster Must Die. In that book, the WoW were all babble. Much like Cormyr's ridiculous fops. If I were a powerful and wise villain, why would I need them? I'd rather subvert the Witches of Rashemen, and eventually conquer Rashemen, then Aglarond and Thay. [Insert evil laugh here.] |
| Therise |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 22:07:06
Have you read Elminster Must Die! yet? The War Wizards are shown to be about as effective as the old Keystone Kops.
Basic Evil 101 states that as an evil mastermind you really only want effective minions, stooges and plants, otherwise you might as well pack your bags as a supervillain and just go on holiday.
That said, I suppose it's possible you're a new evil mastermind on the block, and maybe you don't yet know how loopy the new War Wizards are, so perhaps you're just looking to collect some basic information. In that case, never depend on minor magics for subversion. Rely on the old standby methods of promising power or wealth. Can't go wrong with those, because a spell can be broken but envy and greed are fairly stable character traits. And keep in mind, if you're buying loyalty through any means, don't be terribly surprised if they switch to a higher bidder.
Initially you should require very little from your new minions, other than keeping an ear out for information. After all, trading small bits of magical knowledge for an insider really doesn't diminish you or your plans. When things become more interesting and something actually useful comes into play, one can always remind the minion of one's immense power and tendency to eradicate all former enemies. Painfully.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 20:44:46
first, assuming I was of humanoid form, i'd work on infiltrating their ranks personally- join the organization, and slowly work my way up through the ranks, all the while making myself both trusted and reliable- as well as highly useful. Once I had enough influence, I'd start subtly steering the other members in ways I desired, and also recruiting wizards who would be loyal to me and were competant and useful to my goals. (Personally, I would want to be the power behind the throne, much like Palpatine was early on.)
Once that was accomplished, I would slowly subvert teh wizards to my own views, keeping a tight rein on how much power any one of them attained, and eventually work my way to the top as the Mage Royal (Like Vangy). Once that was accomplished, I'd use that influence to get close to the King and influence him directly- perhaps even with a few subtle suggestions or charm spells. That way, I oculd be a de facto ruler, but no one would ever realize it. Of course, I would be VERY careful not to let anyone suspect my true motives/goals/morality.... Instead of being a dictator, I'd want to be more like Jaffar from Aladdin (before he went completely over-the-top power-mad....)- sneaky, clever, and in charge by influence..... |
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