| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brix |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 10:06:04
I noticed that many, many scrolls deal with deities, although I understand, that this could be fun, I think that it is really the least interessting topic to talk about. Of course everybody can talk about what he wants, but from a game perspective this is imo fruitless. I'd find it more interessting to talk about the big stories of regular pcs/npcs or FR politics. When it comes to deities it's vastly interessting how the deeds of the gods affect their earthly ambassadors. New cults, church politics, single clerics with different oppinions, etc. I mean how often do you meet a deity during your game sessions? I think that these matters should be hidden from mortal eyes and ears. Instead like in a good movie themes should be love, jelousy, greed, hate, etc.
That's my rant for today. What do you think? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:35:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
gods are easier to discuss, they have their portfolios and dogmas, mortals have complex personalities, it's hard to tell what they'll do next, particularly in a world where adventuring is common and there are less sheep
So a divine entity, existing for thousands of years and capable of paying attention to literally dozens of things at once, and capable of being in multiple places at once, has a less complex personality than a short-lived mortal who can't do any of those things? 
lol, the secret is that the gods are natural forces of alien ''sentience'', what mortals ever see of them are anthropomorphized avatars subject to mortal belief, that's why Time of Troubles is called the Avatar Crisis
e.g. Cyric is not a god, but a ''champion'' of some force, Jergal knew that he is not the end of everything |
| Arioch |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not necessarily. Lolth impersonating Moander doesn't further any of her established portfolios.
Ok... Maybe she was trying to broaden her worshippers base adding some surface dweller. Gods protects their power... and like in economy: growth or recession  A basic behaviour of all sentient beings, not a personality trait in itself.
But the more we go on on this argument, the more I see it is just a matter of personal likings. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:08:15
And there's slight instances of similar scenarios referenced in books like Demihuman Deities for example. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:59:45
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And though they may not act in opposition to themselves (and seriously, who does that?), deities have been seen acting in ways beyond their assigned portfolios -- such as impersonating/slaying/absorbing other deities, or in the various deific intrigues.
Human does it And yes, they can act beyond their own portfolios in the circumstances you said, but always to further ... well their portfolios.
Not necessarily. Lolth impersonating Moander doesn't further any of her established portfolios. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:22:49
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
EDITED after The Sage's reply (not seen because I was writing mine): I run to search & read Ed's thoughts on this!
If you've any difficulty finding them, let me know. I was just looking them up the other day, for some deity-related Realms music I was composing, whereupon I noticed they're mostly buried in amongst some of Ed's other ramblings. Not too difficult to find, but also not where you'd expect either. |
| Arioch |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And though they may not act in opposition to themselves (and seriously, who does that?), deities have been seen acting in ways beyond their assigned portfolios -- such as impersonating/slaying/absorbing other deities, or in the various deific intrigues.
Human does it And yes, they can act beyond their own portfolios in the circumstances you said, but always to further ... well their portfolios.
Do not want to stress too much on this, it is just my opinion that I share and I respect yours. I think that in the novels in which their actions are accounted, gods are seen through mortal eyes... Their choices understood and explained through "a human meter" so they appear more "humanized" than they really are.
EDITED after The Sage's reply (not seen because I was writing mine): I run to search & read Ed's thoughts on this! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:11:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I think that gods are less "autonomous" than mortals in their behaviours... (and I think behaviour a direct consequence of personality). They embodies some archetype (their portfolio) and they cannot, by their own nature, act in any way distant to it.
They can be complicated as a being so powerful can be, as a very advanced engine can be... but all this not necessarily adds something more to their "personality"...
They are simple like childs ... all a matter of action and reaction to threats/goals. Even when they show some sort of personality trait, it is part of their chosen manifestation form... I suppose they can change their "personality" as they please...
I'd be a little more careful with that kind of interpretation. It sounds eerily like what we saw of the gods/avatars in the "Avatar" trilogy. And as we now largely know, those depictions of the gods, was practically literary licence:- it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them.
And though they may not act in opposition to themselves (and seriously, who does that?), deities have been seen acting in ways beyond their assigned portfolios -- such as impersonating/slaying/absorbing other deities, or in the various deific intrigues.
Indeed. And Ed's offered some brilliant thoughts on this in his compiled replies over the years. Worthwhile reading for any scribes interested in the subject. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 15:10:13
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I would like to know more on the subject of this Truth, as I have similar ideas about the Heavens and Hells, and the great lie that both are living (though not so many are privy to the truth). I have similar ideas IRL about Christianity, but this is not the time or place lol
Since several of my players tend to frequent these boards from time to time -- in one guise or another, I may have to handle this via PM, as I don't want to spoil too much for them.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:43:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I think that gods are less "autonomous" than mortals in their behaviours... (and I think behaviour a direct consequence of personality). They embodies some archetype (their portfolio) and they cannot, by their own nature, act in any way distant to it.
They can be complicated as a being so powerful can be, as a very advanced engine can be... but all this not necessarily adds something more to their "personality"...
They are simple like childs ... all a matter of action and reaction to threats/goals. Even when they show some sort of personality trait, it is part of their chosen manifestation form... I suppose they can change their "personality" as they please...
I'd be a little more careful with that kind of interpretation. It sounds eerily like what we saw of the gods/avatars in the "Avatar" trilogy. And as we now largely know, those depictions of the gods, was practically literary licence:- it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them.
And though they may not act in opposition to themselves (and seriously, who does that?), deities have been seen acting in ways beyond their assigned portfolios -- such as impersonating/slaying/absorbing other deities, or in the various deific intrigues. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:14:06
I think I see what you are saying, Brix... Maybe. We need to look more at how the plots and intrigues affect the PC's rather than just why Torm has a bug up his butt. I think the DM has to know, though, or at least have an idea of, the bigger picture. You have to know that this god opposes that god in order to build in the intrigue. If there were no rumor that Aumanathor would soon succeed Lathander, then why would his people be after the artifact in the first place? I agree that we have to focus on the PC's and the impact to them, but you have to know what's going on in order to slip in those tiny little details that make everything so interesting. I personally love my current DM because he does that. He thinks of tiny little details that never would have mattered to me... until I see them. Then I'm just amazed at how his mind works.
Of course, in our campaign the gods still have personalities outside their portfolios... I mean, they are more all shades of gray than black and white, and I enjoy how we use them within the storyline. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 14:03:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Of course, in my planar structure, Asmodeus is just the "public" face the sinister Dark Lord puts forth... the "accepted" lie that almost every race and culture understands. The Truth, is utterly more terrifying and vile. And, interestingly, what the Celestials know to be fact, but can do nothing about. See, they too are living a lie, but it's infinitely worse for them, because they know it's a lie that they must always safeguard... because the Truth would not only collapse the Seven Heavens, but also rock the very foundations of both Good and Evil, and re-shape the Great Wheel in ways that haven't been seen since the unrelenting savagery of the earliest period of the Blood War.
I would like to know more on the subject of this Truth, as I have similar ideas about the Heavens and Hells, and the great lie that both are living (though not so many are privy to the truth). I have similar ideas IRL about Christianity, but this is not the time or place lol |
| Brix |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 10:08:32
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Think of this as a pyramid. To the top there are the gods' plans... to the bottom the adventures the PC live. If I have clear in my mind where the top stands... it is easier to portrait the whole picture. This not implies that mortals have to whitness it directly.
And that pyramid is reversed (sounds evil) with regards to what real impact gods have on a campaign, and how much we talk about their plans.
I think that we humanize the FR gods, much like pets.
Take a look at Prince of Lies (?). In this novel the gods were described as ultrapowerful personifications of their portfolio. Tyr has no moral standards beyond law. Torm has only one goal: to guard things. Auril would like to freeze everything, Talos only wants destruction, Tempus only thinks in war terms, and so on. Maybe some yound deities like Mystra or Cyric remember their former mortal lifes, but the others are single-minded individuals.
I'm not saying, deities have no plans, but who actually cares? Priests care. But priests are the god's agents. In the rare case a gods gives a vision to a follower this is surely related to protect or improve the deities portfolio.
One example from a campaign we played:
Somewhere (I think it was F&A) our DM discovered a line saying, that Aumanathor will soon succeed Lathander. So DM created a very simple plot. The pcs had to retrieve an important item from a ruin in Anauroch that was important to the church of Lathander (we never learned why it was important). However others had interesst in this item, too. In the end different factions were stuggling to get this item: The representative of Lathander, who turned out to be a cultist of the Aumanathor splinter group, 'real' Lathander clerics and and an obscure band of mercenaries with their own agenda, a troop of Zhentarim, and the thingie protecting the item in the ruins. In the end the players didn't knew what was wrong and what was right.
That was a damned good adventure.
What I'm trying to say is that maybe we should concentrate more on earthly discussion which I'd find much more interessting, than on esoteric matters. This might prove helpful for your campaigns.
|
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 09:58:35
I like Templeman voicing anyone in anything. The man can do no wrong in my opinion. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 09:56:36
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I like to think of his personality as somewhat similar to Kain of the Legacy of Kain video game series, and indeed cannot imagine anyone but Simon Templeman voicing him should the need ever arise.
Heh. I always liked Templeman voicing Doctor Doom in the old 1994 Fantastic Four animated series. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 09:54:30
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I think that gods are less "autonomous" than mortals in their behaviours... (and I think behaviour a direct consequence of personality). They embodies some archetype (their portfolio) and they cannot, by their own nature, act in any way distant to it.
They can be complicated as a being so powerful can be, as a very advanced engine can be... but all this not necessarily adds something more to their "personality"...
They are simple like childs ... all a matter of action and reaction to threats/goals. Even when they show some sort of personality trait, it is part of their chosen manifestation form... I suppose they can change their "personality" as they please...
I'd be a little more careful with that kind of interpretation. It sounds eerily like what we saw of the gods/avatars in the "Avatar" trilogy. And as we now largely know, those depictions of the gods, was practically literary licence:- it doesn't match the deities as conceived elsewhere in Realmslore and shouldn't be taken as definitive of them.
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 09:14:01
Hmm, I could see him in a role much like Satan from the Incarnations series by Piers Anthony. Wouldn't it be interesting for a group of PC's to discover that he was not only ASSIGNED to be the "Lord of Hell", but that he HATES the job?! Might be a fun and interesting adventure trying to find a replacement should he wish to "retire".... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 09:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Personally I'm a fan of the Thor and Hercules lines from Marvel comics. Gods as physical characters are appealing to me. Personally hoping for some more info regarding my two favorites, Asmodeus and Gruumsh, in the Abyssal Plague crossover. But that's just me.
I prefer Asmodeus to remain "the Great Unknown." It's part of the temptation of the Nine Hells, I think, that the Dark Lord himself exists as nothing more than myth and legend, for the most part -- foolish mortals will want to go looking for the truth behind the legends.
...
Of course, in my planar structure, Asmodeus is just the "public" face the sinister Dark Lord puts forth... the "accepted" lie that almost every race and culture understands. The Truth, is utterly more terrifying and vile. And, interestingly, what the Celestials know to be fact, but can do nothing about. See, they too are living a lie, but it's infinitely worse for them, because they know it's a lie that they must always safeguard... because the Truth would not only collapse the Seven Heavens, but also rock the very foundations of both Good and Evil, and re-shape the Great Wheel in ways that haven't been seen since the unrelenting savagery of the earliest period of the Blood War.
Wow. Well, that certainly is an interesting take on it, and one I can apprecaite. Me, I like Asmodeus as the cunning Magnificent Bastard architype, the guy who's so good at being bad you just can't help but respect him for it. I like to think of his personality as somewhat similar to Kain of the Legacy of Kain video game series, and indeed cannot imagine anyone but Simon Templeman voicing him should the need ever arise. |
| Arioch |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 08:30:46
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
gods are easier to discuss, they have their portfolios and dogmas, mortals have complex personalities, it's hard to tell what they'll do next, particularly in a world where adventuring is common and there are less sheep
So a divine entity, existing for thousands of years and capable of paying attention to literally dozens of things at once, and capable of being in multiple places at once, has a less complex personality than a short-lived mortal who can't do any of those things?
Not only that, but I consider the fact that some deities have multiple aspects or racial/regional-based interpretations across the Realms, to be utterly fascinating. There aren't many mortals like that.
I think that gods are less "autonomous" than mortals in their behaviours... (and I think behaviour a direct consequence of personality). They embodies some archetype (their portfolio) and they cannot, by their own nature, act in any way distant to it.
They can be complicated as a being so powerful can be, as a very advanced engine can be... but all this not necessarily adds something more to their "personality"...
They are simple like childs ... all a matter of action and reaction to threats/goals. Even when they show some sort of personality trait, it is part of their chosen manifestation form... I suppose they can change their "personality" as they please... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 07:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Neither do I, actually- especially after that whole OMD/BND debacle. I wanted to boil him in a vat of holy water for that....
I doubt its effectivity. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 07:53:39
Yeah, I know- Mepisto IS however, the alter-ego if Joe(phisto) Quesada, lol! JK. Let's just say that I believe the devil IS in the details of the MU..... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 07:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Who needs Asmodeus when one can have Mephisto(pheles)!!! Marvel fans should get a chuckle out of this....
Well, it's been largely established now, thanks to the most recent Ghost Rider series, that both Mephisto and what most religions commonly regard as Lucifer/Satan, are not one and the same. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 07:00:14
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Personally I'm a fan of the Thor and Hercules lines from Marvel comics. Gods as physical characters are appealing to me. Personally hoping for some more info regarding my two favorites, Asmodeus and Gruumsh, in the Abyssal Plague crossover. But that's just me.
I prefer Asmodeus to remain "the Great Unknown." It's part of the temptation of the Nine Hells, I think, that the Dark Lord himself exists as nothing more than myth and legend, for the most part -- foolish mortals will want to go looking for the truth behind the legends.
...
Of course, in my planar structure, Asmodeus is just the "public" face the sinister Dark Lord puts forth... the "accepted" lie that almost every race and culture understands. The Truth, is utterly more terrifying and vile. And, interestingly, what the Celestials know to be fact, but can do nothing about. See, they too are living a lie, but it's infinitely worse for them, because they know it's a lie that they must always safeguard... because the Truth would not only collapse the Seven Heavens, but also rock the very foundations of both Good and Evil, and re-shape the Great Wheel in ways that haven't been seen since the unrelenting savagery of the earliest period of the Blood War. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 06:46:31
Neither do I, actually- especially after that whole OMD/BND debacle. I wanted to boil him in a vat of holy water for that.... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 06:37:29
Never did like Mephisto, to tell the truth. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 06:18:14
Who needs Asmodeus when one can have Mephisto(pheles)!!! Marvel fans should get a chuckle out of this.... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 04:35:30
Personally I'm a fan of the Thor and Hercules lines from Marvel comics. Gods as physical characters are appealing to me. Personally hoping for some more info regarding my two favorites, Asmodeus and Gruumsh, in the Abyssal Plague crossover. But that's just me. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 03:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Except you and Wooly, Sage! You both seem to be a lot like Wolverine of late- showing up EVERYWHERE, and always in the meddle- er, I mean MIDDLE of things! LOL!
Oh, I readily admit that I meddle. I often just can't leave well enough alone. I'm so like a tinker-gnome in that regard. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 03:33:53
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Except you and Wooly, Sage! You both seem to be a lot like Wolverine of late- showing up EVERYWHERE, and always in the meddle- er, I mean MIDDLE of things! LOL!
I'm the best there is at what I do! 
(What I do is, of course, a question that has perplexed many for quite a long time!) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 02:26:38
Except you and Wooly, Sage! You both seem to be a lot like Wolverine of late- showing up EVERYWHERE, and always in the meddle- er, I mean MIDDLE of things! LOL! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
gods are easier to discuss, they have their portfolios and dogmas, mortals have complex personalities, it's hard to tell what they'll do next, particularly in a world where adventuring is common and there are less sheep
So a divine entity, existing for thousands of years and capable of paying attention to literally dozens of things at once, and capable of being in multiple places at once, has a less complex personality than a short-lived mortal who can't do any of those things?
Not only that, but I consider the fact that some deities have multiple aspects or racial/regional-based interpretations across the Realms, to be utterly fascinating. There aren't many mortals like that.
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