| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jelennet |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 16:57:32
A question about Dnd and Realms magic. Is there a spell or an artifact that can turn elves and half-elves into humans or humans into elves or half-elves? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 04:43:13
Ah! Finally, someone gets it. This question is what I have been trying to address, the concept of someone born and raised in the culture of a completely different race, with no other influences- are they still "human" or "elf", or are they still their race of birth regardless of whether they later change their race? If the human was raised as an elf and is later turned into one, IS he still "human", even though he has spent his entire life thinking and acting like one? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 02:02:13
It has been proposed that humans cannot turn into elves and vice versa, regardless of their physical transformation, due to assumptions regarding the "nurture" aspect of culture and also perhaps because of some fundamental, untranslatable quality of the soul/spirit.
But assume that a young human man of 20 is reincarnated as an elf, and then spends 180 years in that form. Is he still not an elf when he has spent only 10% of his years as a human and 90% of his years as an elf?
What about a human baby that is raised by elves, who may even self-identify as an elf. He speaks the language, thinks very similar to an elf, is he an elf then? Or could he be said not to fully be one due to his brain, senses, anatomy and perhaps even "soul" being subtly different somehow as a human. After 20-30 years of being raised as an elf, is he human or elf? Then suppose he is reincarnated as an elf, or has his race changed by means of a wish or other spell. Now his anatomy is fully elven. He has both the nature and nurture of an elf; is he an elf now?
At what point does he "become" an elf? Or do you suppose he can never become one no matter what?
Lastly, is there no way a spell could grant one that ineffable elfiness that, in addition to the mere physical anatomy, makes an alteration to one's spirit that renders a human fully elven (or back the other way)? Magic is mysterious that way. Do you suppose that is beyond the ability of magic to effect such a transformation? It seems like there should be a way to do it. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 18:44:01
Aside from the "being" part of the Weave", I think that an elf raised by humans, with no contact with other elves, WOULD still think much as a human- he would not KNOW any other way of thinking. He might sense that there was something about himself that was different from humans, but that would be about it. He might wonder why he did not sleep, or why he had a better grasp of magic, but he would not KNOW that he was inherantly ocnnected to the Weave, because there would be no one to teach him those things. An elf may have some innate physical an/or psychological differences, but without anyone to explain/teach/show him those differences, he'd have no way to learn to "think like an elf". Which was the point of my post. Same with a human raised by elves- he would not learn to think as a human, because he would have no human perspective to learn from. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:47:09
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I pretty much agree with Quale as well. Which takes me back to being undecided on the whole issue. Physically transformative magic, and reincarnation, may give one the physical brain of an elf but does it give one the mind of an elf? Does the concept of a soul come into play here? And if what's important is the mind and/or the soul, then is physical transformation necessary at all to becoming something else? That is to say, can one wish to be an elf in the physical body of another type of being and still fundamentally be an elf?
Scratching my head, wandering off to think about this some more,
Christopher
Like most things, it depends on what lore you refer to.
However humans have souls, elves had spirit.
The old raise from dead rules did make it very hard to raise an elf from the dead, reincarnate however, IIRC, could work with a chance of still being an elf.
Elves were part of the Weave and actually never died, just they became spirits.
I have no idea what the current lore/history is. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:25:14
I pretty much agree with Quale as well. Which takes me back to being undecided on the whole issue. Physically transformative magic, and reincarnation, may give one the physical brain of an elf but does it give one the mind of an elf? Does the concept of a soul come into play here? And if what's important is the mind and/or the soul, then is physical transformation necessary at all to becoming something else? That is to say, can one wish to be an elf in the physical body of another type of being and still fundamentally be an elf?
Scratching my head, wandering off to think about this some more,
Christopher
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| Brynweir |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 17:03:01
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in.
Not at all, elves are not humans with strange ears, that's less interesting, they're truly alien, their minds of the Weave
I agree with Quale. Elves and humans are not really alike at all. Elves are much more a part of the Weave, the world, and each other. I think that it may be as much that as it is a cultural bias when it comes to the views on half-elves. |
| Quale |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 16:48:56
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in.
Not at all, elves are not humans with strange ears, that's less interesting, they're truly alien, their minds of the Weave |
| see |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 05:10:12
Second edition explicitly allowed wish to change a character's race (DM Option: High Level Campaigns, p.76). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 01:10:13
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Here's a question. Would a moonblade "work" for an elf who owned it but who was temporarily polymorphed into another race? Does the answer change if the polymorph is permanent? Is it different if the body change happened by other means?
Cheers,
Christopher
The moonblade decides, existing lore appears to indicates that the blade does not always work with direct descendants - it though might work for the bloodline further down the bloodline. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 00:28:01
Y'know, the OP's question is a lot more layered than I first gave it credit for (sorry!). There are various magical ways to physically change a human or half-elf into an elf, and vice versa, but is it possible to change their integral identity? This isn't even as philosophical a question as it seems in the worlds we're talking about because of things like race-specific magic items and so on.
Here's a question. Would a moonblade "work" for an elf who owned it but who was temporarily polymorphed into another race? Does the answer change if the polymorph is permanent? Is it different if the body change happened by other means?
Cheers,
Christopher |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 23:58:47
Not that much, I would think. The only real difference between the way a human or elf thinks is culture they are raised in. If a human was raised by elves, he'd think like one, and the same would be true for an elf raised by humans. Your thinking is largely based on what you know from "birth" (or reincarnation, as the case may be) If someone was a human in a former life and became an elf after reincarnation, he's still think like a human, Same goes for a human who was once an elf. Most of it comes from life-experience, thought there might be some tendencies toward acting and thinking outside the "norm" of that race (ie- he'd be more likely to understand the other race as well as his own former race. So he'd look human, but think elf, or vice-versa, but still be able to learn the new race's ways. |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 23:03:35
the brain and the way the creature looks at things changes
probably humans can eventually become like elves, like those children raised by wolves, elves are not that adaptable |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 22:49:20
IMO you would be reincarnated with all your old thoughts and memories, thus the reason you don't know a language you didn't know before. The body is new but its knowledge is not. The other abilities come with the form, but information doesn't. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 22:14:54
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
reincarnation means that you change your way of thinking as well
You really think so? Even with what Wooly quoted there about the reincarnated being not necessarily gaining the language of her new racial/creature type? Seems like language is a big part of "way of thinking" to me, though that may be simple professional prejudice.
Cheers,
Christopher
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| Quale |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 21:19:44
reincarnation means that you change your way of thinking as well |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 16:56:22
Well, the d20 SRD says "The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form."
So as I see it, that's the next best thing to being born a member of the new race. A human reincarnated as an elf might be more human in thinking, but would be an elf in all other regards. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 16:39:50
This discussion is taking a fascinating philosophical turn. "Since neither the exterior nor the inward elf. Resembles that it was."
What about humans or other races (perhaps half-elves would be the most likely) who self-identify as elves? What about people who were once elves but have now been reincarnated as another race and wish to use magic to return to "elfhood?" Would those circumstances change whether or not the exterior and the inward elf could come into integration?
Cheers,
Christopher
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| Diffan |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 16:02:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think polymorph would do the trick... Polymorph gives someone the outward appearance of their new shape -- but that's it. A human polymorphed into an elf just gives you someone that really looks like an elf -- he'd not enter Reverie or live for centuries or be able to wield a moonblade, because despite his outward appearance, he's still a human.
To get those effects, you need something far more powerful, like a permanent shapechange or minor artifact or High Magic ritual.
I think Polymorph is a bit stronger than that. Look here-->
quote:
Found in d20 SRD
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. *The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
*Bolded for emphasis
The subject would in all senses be an elf. If this situation were to become permanent, he would then gain "some" elven abilities such as +2 Dex, -2 Con and low-light visiion, and bonuses to skills. Do I think he could weield a Moonblade? No. Would he live longer? Yes. Would he gain the ability to use "elven" weapons such as the Thinblade as a Martial weapon? No. Physically he/she is an elf, though they wouldn't socially be an elf so they'd stick out when in elven communities like not respecting certain customs, etc.
It says in the spell description that they do NOT gain special qualities, and these special qualities are considered "elven traits" in their monster description. This would imply that they would not gain Immunity to sleep, +2 to Enchantment spells, enter Reverie, or gain the ability to notice secret or concealed doors. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 15:39:05
I don't think polymorph would do the trick... Polymorph gives someone the outward appearance of their new shape -- but that's it. A human polymorphed into an elf just gives you someone that really looks like an elf -- he'd not enter Reverie or live for centuries or be able to wield a moonblade, because despite his outward appearance, he's still a human.
To get those effects, you need something far more powerful, like a permanent shapechange or minor artifact or High Magic ritual. |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 08:45:38
There's also lady Shadowmoon of the Emerald Enclave or Khalreshaar of Evermeet. You have to die defending elves and they resurrect you. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 05:46:46
From elven to another race (drow has been done as has mezzoloth and my 'unoffocial' realmslore has seen an elf change into a human) the Akh`Faen`Tel`Quess High Magic ritual can be used (Cormanthyr, p.132).
-- George Krashos
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 03:41:27
S'alright! I am in need of more caffeine, meself! And as of this time, in need of a bit of a break after the activities of the past hour..... |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 03:19:52
Ah, sorry, I didn't catch that last. *goes to recharge the cup of tea* |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:57:45
That's why I said one who was descended from the family, but not an "elf" (ie- less than 1/2 elf). |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:54:49
I would think that a moonblade is out of the question, since a human-turned-elf wouldn't have the familial connection to wield one. The child of a human-turned-elf with an elf with familial connections should.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:35:22
There are weapons that do that, too, IIRC. I think there might also be some that do the same, but with elves. So could a human-turned-elf wield a Moonblade if he was descended from the family, but did not have enough elf in him to use it? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 02:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure there's something that will do that (though likely not designed specifically for elves and humans as much as altering any one member of a race into another race), but it's not been described anywhere that I know of.
There's also the rules-option Steven Schend presented in 2e, which allows one race to change into another.
I remember where it's from, now. The Lost Level adventure would allow anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 01:38:44
Hmm, there could also be belts of race-change, much like the belt of gender-changing. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 01:26:48
you could use the wish spell.. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure there's something that will do that (though likely not designed specifically for elves and humans as much as altering any one member of a race into another race), but it's not been described anywhere that I know of.
There's also the rules-option Steven Schend presented in 2e, which allows one race to change into another. |
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