| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:17:11
In a large scale battle when three Wemic tribes with 1000 troops each band togethter VS a Centuar group of about the same size which side would be triumpant and why? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 20:11:25
Again, knowing more about zulu culture than wemics, thowing spears would play a big part in their offence.
And if your enemy hides in the forest, simply burn the forest down. Then again, the same could work on the high grass of the plains to herd your enemy. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 19:53:35
I recall a race of zebra-like centaurs from some 2e sourcebook or another. Anybody remember these guys? It seems these two would be natural enemies and a much more likely match-up.
edit: I found them. The name Zebranaur is less than original. It says they are much more pacifistic than the wemics. Choosing to flee rather than fight, but if forced to, I think the Zebranaur archers would be a force to be reckoned with. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 17:02:42
Thayan Centaurs or your generic "I'm hiding in the woods, which makes no sense" centaur? |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 16:35:05
Centaurs... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 00:24:37
Wemics, from what I've seen, are largely based off the zulu tribe. If they apply similar tactics, you'd see a "chest & horns" manuever; with the stronger warriors making a tight line in the middle & the faster troops branching out to surround the target. Whole thing is done very fast, with high grass & sloping hills used to cover the approach. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 22:06:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm a huge fan of wemics, myself... But I really don't care for any of the other "tauric" critters, except maybe driders.
No love for the tlincalli? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 14:29:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Misplaced apostrophes make Deneir cry.
 |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 12:09:55
A wemic's what versus a centaur's what, precisely?
Misplaced apostrophes make Deneir cry.
In any case, I believe that the battle concept has not enough information. X vs. Y, while entertaining, too frequently fails to take into account the other factors; warfare is not conducted in a conveniently self-contained way. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 11:29:14
Wemics are a lot faster than centaurs, and I guess have better endurance, too. |
| Roaryn |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 11:10:56
Hello Everyone. I am new to these forums, but have been playing for a number of years. In my opinion the wemics have the advantage and this is due to the following reason.
1. Just becasue some cultures are barbaric does not mean they are at a disadvantage, quite the contrary. They are more violent then thier more civilized folk. We just have to look at our own history to see this. For example Ghengis Khan conquered more area than even the Romans and they even went against the empire of China and won. William Wallace took on the British and even though he died in the end Scotland gained independence. The Romans were defeated by Barbarians. Hannibal was undefeated while in Italy.
2. Due to the wemic hunting and strategy, and that they have ambush and stealth and work together as the lion pride they are a force to be reckon with.
3. The reason the Romans defeated the Barbarians (Celts) is that in thier culture personal combat was more important than working together.
4. Look at the barbarians spells and magical items (Spirit arrows and Eagle spears, not to mention war paint and sacred bundles. Monkey skulls and the rest.)
5. The wemics hire out for money and weapons, armour and magic. They have a defence minded in regards to there camps. Were Centaurs are boozers.
6. Through ambush, trade and others who sell weapons in any conflict, bows and arrows and metal weapons and armour would soon get in the wemics hands if not before hand.
7. Where centaurs are farmers, wemics are hunters and if the conflict goes long the centaurs will starve due to the inability to plant thier crops were the wemics could always eat the horses :)
8. Running to charge to only get pounced on and ripped apart and speared by a wemic who is used to killing large beasts in hand to hand combat is a great advantage.
9. Guerilla warfare is quiet effective. Look at Viet Nam and the Americans as a recent modern war. The VC use weapons they took from the French and those purchased or given by the other communist countries like Russia and China, but using tricks and traps and punji sticks forced the Americans out.
10. But also it boils down to luck of the dice, chance and the will to win. Morale and reasons why you are fighting. A person fighting for his home and his family will be more likely to win against someone who is doing it for money.
11. Nobanion clerics have Roar of the Lion, and if if the centaurs have something like that I haven't heard. Not to mention Wemics are excellent Great cat trainers, having a bunch of lions tagging along for the kill would be better than wardogs. Come to mention that do centaurs have anything close to that? Not to mention Nobanion has the Fang Shields and thier allies, Were-Lions, Were-tigers and other cat like beasts. Not to mention a city of followers ready to come to Nobanion's call in a holy crusade should the need arise.
I have played a wemic and I they are tough.
|
| Synthalus |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 20:18:17
The wemics are a tribal people with no writing skills or interest in recording history. Nature gave the wemics their hunting grounds, so they fight tooth and claw against the civilizations encroaching upon them from all sides. The wemics aren’t evil and don’t want to hurt anyone in particular, but they do want strangers to stay well clear of their hunting grounds and the wemics’ plentiful prey. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 18:14:16
Wemic are described as in the Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerun as hunters of the plains, and masters of the ambush and expert strategists. Seems very warlike to me. A typical wemic has good move silently, spot, listen and survival, exceptional jump and relatively good hide skill for its size. The favorite weapons of wemics are claws, spears, javelins and shields. Exceptional wemics take pride in any possession of magic weapons, and most of their mercenaries are likely to except them as the only payment for their tracking skills.
Centaurs are more like rural woodland hunters, good at horticulture and hunting big game and monsters of the forests. They are stated to prefer to stay close to their forest glade lairs, which seems far more defensive minded. Centaurs are wont to litter their glades with thorny briars, snares and pits to increase the defensive potential of their lairs. Typical centaurs have similar skill set but are less skilled in them overall, and lack the exceptional skill in jumping wemics have. The favorite weapons of centaurs are hooves, composite bows, lances and clubs (a distinct advantage for the centaurs here). Mercenary centaurs prefer to get paid in foodstuffs and alcohol (again a wemics advantage).
The scenario posted by the OP is interestingly stacked against the centaurs. A centaur tribe is at its weakest when they haven't been able to cultivate their lair to optimal defensive conditions through their planting skills. The 1000 centaurs strong tribe would likely try to cross the plains as fast as they can (they have their 10ft speed advantage to do this), and if they can reach the wooded mountain glades they could probably win. The collected wemic pride of around 1000, supported by a cleric of Nobanion as its leader with paladin of Nobanion as bodyguards and squad leaders sounds like a force that could threaten a lot of conventional Fearunian armies. Add that they are fighting in their home turf, they could set up snares and harry the crossing centaur tribe into a position for a massive ambush. The result would be a melee slaughter. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 07:49:39
What I was trying to say was more along the lines of
1) It's a ridiculous matchup. How and why would it ever happen?
2) A large number of significant parameters can affect the outcome enough to shift it either way. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 04:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It is a bit of a ridiculous question. It's like asking "who would win, 1000 Clerics or 1000 Wizards?"
How about something more fun?
A 1000 Vampire Centaurs vs 1000 Ninja Wemics! 
And would they join forces to fight dino-riding zombie monkeys with lasers strapped to their freakin' heads? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 03:27:22
Ah! Thank you Hoondatha. I knew I was not imagining things. I wonder why they did not use that tactic more in the stories? Would have been very effective with enough people. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 01:25:42
Alystra: It wasn't in the first movie; Edmund was riding a talking horse. As for the second... hmm... can't remember. Haven't seen it in well over a year.
Darn it, now you've got me curious. I'm going to go dig that DVD out and check. Be back later.
Edit: Ok, found it. Second movie. It's Susan who rides a centaur, briefly, as they're all fleeing the failed castle attack. She gets down once they get out, apparently, because she's walking by the time they reach the How. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:41:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
Dracons, as I recall. Never really had much use for them, myself. They're like a lizard-man/dinosaur blend.
Dracons are a centaur-like race, with the lower body of a brontosaur, a humanoid torso, and a dragon-like head.
I always liked their "herd social mentality," though I've not really had an opportunity to use them in my SJ games. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:46:49
It is a bit of a ridiculous question. It's like asking "who would win, 1000 Clerics or 1000 Wizards?" |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:22:14
A horse's rear kick is also extremely effective and far more powerful then the Lion-version's would be.
And because they are fairly well-balanced, I once again say 'it depends' - terrain, preparation, weaponery, etc... all play a major role (as does 'home field advantage' - both species are territorial). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:18:02
Claws not play a rle? Au contrare!! Remember, BOTH of these races have MULTIPLE attacks, not just the standard one or two of a human. Think "whole animal" here. A Wemic pouncing onto the back of a centaur to claw rake while stabing his upper half would be incredibly vicious. Do not underestimate the importance of using full attack actions- in 2nd ed, they naturally had 4 attacks (six using a pounce attack) with which to put the hurt on someone. Harder to do on a centaur, perhaps, but a very effective tactic, as it leaves them free to attack with ALL weapons (natural and held) from behind, with little resistance from the centaur's only real defense- it's upper half. In that respect, the centaurs would literally be cut to pieces. Yes, both sides will primarily use held weapons, but one has to consider the creature's natural weapons in the fight as well, at least in melee. Even from the front, a good swipe from the fore-legs of a rearing wemic could easily take out the centaur's upper body while its weapon parries his blade or club. But of course, the centaur could stomp on or batter at the wemic using the same rearing stance, but with less effect. Again, it comes down to training, weather, terrain, and morale more than anything. And while felines are naturally stealthy, lions are built more for plains, rather than forest dwelling. As a rule, they do not even climb trees like their feline cousins.
Hoondatha, was it Edmund riding the centaur, then? I remember someone did. Or was it in the second movie? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:17:56
That was a Manicorn.
REAL Unicorns only let female virgins ride them. 
Kinnaras are an early form of Centaur from Hindu folklore, and are possibly the first misrepresentation of nomadic (Asian) Horseman raiding into ancient India (which in-turn had cultural contact with ancient Greece, and the myths spread from there). Note the phoenetic similarity. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:53:46
I think that if it ever came to unarmed combat, the wemics have a decided advantage, however I agree with the others who were saying that both sides will be using weapons, and therefore hoof/claw won't play much of a role. I don't care how sharp your claws are, if the other guy has a lance, you're not going to be killing anyone.
Markus has a good point about how centaurs make more sense as plains creatures, and that they might have moved into the forests for shelter at some point. Not sure where else to go with that, though, especially in something as cerebral as this conversation.
One of the tings I liked about the first Narian movie, and actually about the second as well, was how they handled the centaur combat. Especially the main centaur in the first movie. You really got a sense of why they could be considered the backbone of the Narnian army.
Oh, and Peter was riding a unicorn. Or rather, a white horse with a pidly little horn stuck to its forehead. Centaurs, the movie did a good job with. Unicorns, not so much. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:44:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
Dracons, as I recall. Never really had much use for them, myself. They're like a lizard-man/dinosaur blend. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:40:23
RL history first records centaurs in ancient Greek mythology, probably arrived in the Aegean from older Mesopotamia, though there's some evidence they may have conceptually originated in "the hordelands" of central Asia (where they were portrayed as ultimate horseman soldiers of the steppe, not as sylvan elf wannabee sorts or D&Disney "party animals"). Mesopotomia also had urmahlullu, lion-men creatures which loosely resemble wemics (although feline centauroids are generally an invention of modern fantasy). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:56:57
I think Wemics have the advantage in a forest-setting - cats are stealthy. Despite the lore to the contrary, Centaurs preferring to live in forests is a bit... ridiculous. Not only is there body-type more conducive to open plains, but they are also known to be exceptional archers, and forests do not allow for a whole lot of range (especially ancient sylvan ones). I think Centaurs dwelling in forests is something that came-about when 'man' started horning-in on their turf, and the Elves and other fey creatures 'took them in' to hide them. I do not think that is a natural state of evolution right there. There is some FR history concerning this (Centaurs vs Humans) in dragon #228.
FR Centaurs appear to have originated in the Unapproachable East (there is a Hordelands variant) - note the map on pgs. 48-49 in LEoF. Wemics appear to have originated in the Shining South, in the Shaar region. Both can be found most anywhere these days (including, bizarrely enough, the Stonelands).
I've had considered adding Wemics to my list of Rakshasa-created crossbreeds (with Centaurs, naturally), but I simply don't like them enough to really give it a whole lot of thought. I don't understand what it is about them that irritates me - I SHOULD like them because my tastes gravitate in that direction. It may just a be a case of very early - and very crappy - art.
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
I would think manticores would the natural enemy of Wemics - I should find that Dragon article and read it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:24:28
I wasn't entirely discounting the wemic shamans, sorcerers, and bards. I figure they just basically cancel against the centaur shamans, sorcerers, and bards. Leaving a bunch of centaur rangers, fighter, mages, and druids vs wemic barbarians, rangers, and fighters. I'm not sure that hooves and claws are generally as effective as spears, lances, and blades; both sides would likely use weapons, wemic superiority in unarmed-only combat would be largely negated. Centaurs are also more intelligent, I notice. Not too shabby for a bunch of fey horsey-men. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:06:11
I believe they did that in Lion Witch and the Wardrobe- when Peter fought from the back of a centaur. As for hoof-topaw combat, those raking claws would gut most centaurs in a heartbeat. They would not be biting or head-butting- it would be hoof against claw. (Anyone who's ever been kicked by a horse knows that this can do some serious damage!) But as I said earlier, if it came down to gritty melee, the wemics would probably have it on sheer damage potential. Barbarians get rage, with the bonuses and extra HP that go with it, which might off-set the magic of the centaurs. Also, do not discount wemic shamans and sorcerers, and I can certainly see a few Nobanion paladins in the bunch. Then again, with the centaurs, you have the possibility of marshals as well, which might be strategically advantageous, and boost morale. Too many factors- what are the weather conditions? How well-fed and trained are the troops? Don't forget the wemics have more to loose! That is sometimes the deciding factor in a battle- sheer desperation and need. |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:33:55
I asked this question because ive always been fond of wemics! they would make the perfect chewbacca esk companion for a player character that travels the world. bodyguard, wise like the lion king, and in a pinch you can ride him into a battle (if he lets you)or out of a battle (again if he lets you). This would especially be cool if you were a ranger. you could fire arrows from his back well he fights off enemys from the front. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:23:54
lol, my bias showing again. In my mind anything and everybody that isn't a grog-drinkin' axe-grindin' stone-hardened dwarven battlerager is "fey and flighty".  |
| Synthalus |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:17:12
very true hoondatha! |
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