| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 10:52:04
Has anyone seen a good explenation of how the animistic Adama can be handled? FRCS only refers to the combination of the dogma's of the major gods in it, which I believe are Selune, Gond, Waukeen, Tyr and Chauntea.
Any ideas what reallife religions I should study to get a grip on the concept of "All is the One"? |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 19:10:51
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since Islam incorporates Christ & Moses (and I think Buddha - not sure), it is a decent RW analogy of the Adama.
Incorrect. I actually had to study Islam in at least one college course and one high school course, and there was no reference of the Buddha.
Hey Galuf, just wanted to bring this to your attention:
"And (remember) Ismail (Ishmael) and Idris (Enoch) and Dhul-Kifl, all were from among those who observe patience." Surah 21: 85-86 "And remember Ismail and Al-Yasa (Elisha) and Dhul-Kifl, and they were all of the best." Surah 38:48.
Dhul-Kifl is, of course Siddharta (later Goatama) Buddha. The Quaran mentions the Buddha twice (in the above surahs).
However, this point is an issue of scholarly debate, which far exceeds the breadth of an undergrad Non-Western culture course.
I would ask, though, how many *other* super holy men were born in that same village! |
| see |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 23:31:40
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You're describing the concept of the divine permeating the universe, see.
Well, yes. I'm describing the Adama. To quote FR16, The Shining South — "The Adama is the world spirit that embraces and enfolds the divine essence that is part of all beings; gods, men, animals, plants, rocks, and all of their existence."
Pretty clear example of panentheism, to my mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's impossible to even make the distinction as to whether or not the divine "exists" simply because the universe itself, every particle within it, is collectively essential to the divine entity. The creator god may indeed be "dead", having only ever had and used exactly one divine power: that of creating the universe itself and permeating it.
Not quite. You're describing pantheism, not panentheism.
In pantheism, the Universe is God, and no distinction can be made. In panentheism, the Universe is part of God, but God is more than just the Universe; God transcends it.
Hinduism is very definitely transcendental, yes. However, different schools within it hold alternately to polytheism (the transcendental is several separate deities), theism (the transcendental is a single deity separate from the world), and panentheism (the transecndental and the universe are ultimately all part of one thing). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 01:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since Islam incorporates Christ & Moses (and I think Buddha - not sure), it is a decent RW analogy of the Adama.
Incorrect. I actually had to study Islam in at least one college course and one high school course, and there was no reference of the Buddha.
If I stated it as a fact I would be 'Incorrect'.
I did not, therefor I was not.
My 'study' of Islam was one quarter (not even a semester) in HS (10th grade, I think), and considering how many decades ago that was I'm lucky I even remember who Muhammad was. I simply recalled the teacher telling us that "Islam accepts all other prophets as prophets, but Muhammad was his last prophet" (or something very close to that). There was a time I could recite the entire lecture verbatim, but I did a little too much partying in the 80's. 
Anyhow, my point was that NO religion is truly monotheistic - Archangels, Saints, 'Blessed Mother', The Son', 'Holy Ghost' (not even sure what THAT is} - Christianity has it's 'pantheon' just as any other Mythos does. It also says that all (including us) are part of God, ergo my point that 'all things are one', just as in the Adama.
The more you study religion, the more you realize they are all really just saying the same thing, but using different terminology. Conflict comes from the 'priesthood' of each religion wanting to be in-charge - it has absolutely nothing to do with doctrine.
It's ALWAYS about power.
Anyhow, what did the Romans do when they conquered a new people? They incorporated some of their 'gods' into their own pantheon. Just as Hinduism 'swallowed' Vedic traditions, and The Babylonians adopted the Sumerian pantheon. Just as the Romans themselves did with the Greek Gods, and just as the later Roman (Catholics) did - they just called them 'Saints' - Brigid, anyone?
The 4th edition lore proves the Adama was right, or at-least on the right track. We found-out many of 'the gods' were just culture-specific Avatars of other deities, which is the basis of Adama teachings - all are part of something else, which in-turn are part of something greater. The Kara-Turran religions call them 'Boddas' or 'Padhrasattvas' (my spelling might be off on those), depending on the region (in one area they are called the Lords of Creation and are lumped-in with the Vedic Gods in Malatra). Like RW Vedic/Buddhist teachings, these 'gods' are merely intermediaries between mortals and the truly divine (The Padhra).
Interestingly, the 'founder of eastern religion' was Surtava (FRA1, Storm Riders), who hailed from Ulgarth - the Shining Lands region, precisely where Satama was from (and note the similarities in names, as well). This is why I thought they were one and the same (and still could be - if he was 'Chosen of the Gods', then his life could have easily been extended many centuries). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 11:17:34
You're describing the concept of the divine permeating the universe, see. It's impossible to even make the distinction as to whether or not the divine "exists" simply because the universe itself, every particle within it, is collectively essential to the divine entity. The creator god may indeed be "dead", having only ever had and used exactly one divine power: that of creating the universe itself and permeating it.
The great religions (at least Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism) believe instead that the divine is transcendental. That is, the divine exists somehow apart from the "normal" universe and has no great effect on universe outside of deliberate actions. Faerűnian religion seems to also be transcendal-based, as it believes in deities who manifest from somewhere "outside" the normal world. Ever superdivine Ao (who presumably exists "somewhere else") has no influence on the cosmos unless he directly intercedes.
Budhism is probably transcendental as well, I think. Though I really don't know enough to say. |
| see |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 09:16:51
The Adama is probably best described as a pantheism or panentheism ( "For the panentheist, God is in all, and all is in God." — Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami ), and its closest Earthly model would be Hinduism. Taoism works as a second model. Both Hinduism and Taoism shade from pantheism/panentheism at the most intellectual levels to polytheism at the popular level, which helps understand how the Adama co-exists with standard Realms polytheism.
While Bahá'í teaches that all religions are essentially one at the root and about the same God, it does not teach (unlike the Adama) that all the universe is part of God; it has a creator/creation distinction like (orthodox) Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 06:12:01
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Are there any examples of nasty religious jihads, crusades, inquisitions, or interdictions in Faerűn?
The elven and Tuigan crusades are largely the only examples that immediately spring to mind. Though I do seem to recall a few inquisition/interdiction-styled tidbits from Steven Schend in Empires of the Shining Sea. I'll have to look them up though, because I can't recall the references off-hand.
And I suppose the whole Banedeath 1361 DR scenario in Zhentil Keep could be construed as an Cyric-born inquisition/jihad against the Church of Bane. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 04:05:57
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since Islam incorporates Christ & Moses (and I think Buddha - not sure), it is a decent RW analogy of the Adama.
Incorrect. I actually had to study Islam in at least one college course and one high school course, and there was no reference of the Buddha. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 03:40:37
Ao does seem like the obvious choice for a logocentric monotheism; the plethora of "other" gods could be seen as manifested aspects of Ao.
Though I suppose a fair number of religions would view their own deity as the one preeminent superdivine before all others ... no doubt some religious wars must occur in the Realms. (Real wars, beyond the usual Bane/Cyric/Talos sorts of conflict.)
Are there any examples of nasty religious jihads, crusades, inquisitions, or interdictions in Faerűn? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 03:35:06
Since Islam incorporates Christ & Moses (and I think Buddha - not sure), it is a decent RW analogy of the Adama.
Whereas it takes those people as 'prophets' (demi-powers/exarchs in D&D terms), the Adama accepts the divinity of the various FR gods and considers them all part of a 'greater whole' (which is pretty damn close to what I've been saying about D&D gods and the cosmology for some time now).
It really just a matter of terminology = what one religion calls 'lesser gods', Christianity (and others) refer to as 'prophets' and 'Saints' - it all boils down to the same thing at the end of the day.
The Orientals have the right of it - its all just one, big 'bureaucracy', and weather you want to call an 'underling' a Saint, lesser god, or 'powerful spirit', there is an order to the cosmos (RW religion/myth and D&D), and all the terms we use to describe them are inaccurate classifications we mortals assign them.
The Adama isn't that far-off from the Path and the Way of Kara-Tur, and interestingly ALL of them had prophets arising from the Raurin/Imaskari region (I'm including the Shining lands in that classification). In fact, the stories of the two 'saviors' are very similar, but differentiate by a few centuries time-wise. I tried to connect them, but it was a bit of a stretch - the best I could do is say that they both received 'visions' in the Cave of a Thousand Gods (which is where I suspect the Shou Pantheon & peoples first emerged unto Toril).
Its also not that dissimilar to Christian and even Native American beliefs - nearly all religions (AFAIK) consider all the spirits/gods a part of the same being - the universe itself. Weather you call that 'Overmind' Jove or 'The Great Spirit' is up to you, but we are all a part of something far greater then ourselves (theoretically and D&D-speaking, of course). 
I think I would have found it rather interesting to see if if the adherents of The Adama recognized Ao as this 'greater being' all others are part of, after the ToT. Sadly, this was never even broached in canon. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 01:28:11
Oh, along similar lines to Voudoun, there's Santeria in which Christian saints have absorbed gods of African faiths. Or do those gods use the Christian saints names as aliases? Not sure which metaphor applies...
And to expound on Galuf's mention of Hinduism above, the Hindu notion of Brahman as a complex supreme being that includes distinct personalities such as Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, or Shakti, not to mention multiple incarnations/avatars, might be similar to the notion of the Adama. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 16:26:51
Vodoun and Baha'i, nice suggestions...
This particular character of mine has had a bad possession experience, so some of the voodoo practices are particularly nice as inspiration. The global race message of Baha'i is likely to be stretched to its limit: by including all living corporeal beings my character only excludes shambling undead (especially corporeal undead which he is trained to hunt) from the all is one message of the Adama.
The southern realms around the Golden Waters are not especially known for their segregation or exclusion of social groups, so I hesitate to give them any less insight into to "one-ness of things" of the Adama's message. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 06:04:47
Actually, in reading about the Adama on page 9 of Shining South, it does seem to have hints of Baha'i, Buddhist and Hinduism within in.
At the same time, the entry mentions that the Faerunian deities of most importance within the Adama faith are (aliases in parentheses) Gond (Zionil), Oghma (Curna), Selune (Lucha), Torm and Waukeen. Supposedly, these deities in question best exemplify the values stressed by the Adama. At the same time, a DM could just as well use the rules of worshipping an entire pantheon from Complete Divine to possibly ease any confusion, if you ask me. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 00:49:25
Bahá'í may teach something similar to that. I hate to misrepresent anything about a religion I know very little about, but my understanding is that it incorporates the teachings of prophets from all religions, or at least the major historical ones, and purports that those religions are all part of Bahá'í.
Not sure if this is exactly the same as the Adama, but if you are looking for earthly religions to research for reference, Bahá'í might be a good place to start. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 11:05:40
RL religions? I don't know that there are any that perfectly (or even approximately) mirror the Adama, but there are any number of syncretic religious traditions- google is your friend here. Though there are few cultural parallels, you could start with Umbanda or Vodoun. There are others that are closer to what I see the Adama as, but the faithful of those religions don't think of their beliefs as syncretic, and I don't want to offend anyone, so I'll leave that alone.
FWIW, I run the Adama much like the Faith of the Seven in GRRM's ASoIaF series; the unlettered masses worship individual gods that belong to an exclusive pantheon, but the 'cultured' classes see it as a single entity which has its aspects represented as the different gods. |
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