| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:50:54
For those who haven't yet read or seen Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, here's a little info.
So what if.... Toril has multiple copies (hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands) scattered across the vast Multiverse; there's Toril Prime which if destroyed would also mean the destruction of the rest of its copies; and the characters from one Toril have their “opposites” in the other Torils?
Would it be nice to see the Chosen causing mayhem and Shade, the Red Wizards, Larloch, and all villains of note doing what is relatively “good”? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| swifty |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 16:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
For those who haven't yet read or seen Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, here's a little info.
So what if.... Toril has multiple copies (hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands) scattered across the vast Multiverse; there's Toril Prime which if destroyed would also mean the destruction of the rest of its copies; and the characters from one Toril have their “opposites” in the other Torils?
Would it be nice to see the Chosen causing mayhem and Shade, the Red Wizards, Larloch, and all villains of note doing what is relatively “good”?
if anyone's ever seen any documentaries about quantum mechanics the phycisists believe it highly probable that there are multiple versions of our universe. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 01:09:15
Oh, and what if the ninth dimension that Szass Tam was able to see using a highly specialized spell is actually a series of "echoes" or "copies" of different Torils? |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 18:00:20
Well, think of this... what if multiverses were, to use an example I once used in a fan fic, to be like frayed rope where it slowly begins to break down... unless it weaves itself into another strong hybrid rope universe made up of it's components? Perhaps weaving itself both in the past and present as well?
This somehow creating hybrid universes where elements of one universe exists with one or more different universes.
Or there could be cracks, rifts, portals and gateways between universes. Which allows for limited crossovers and fusions. The realms is full or portals, many forgotten in exit or entry points.
Also I a surprised no one mentioned one of the oldest is not the second oldest parallel universe cliches/tropes... Reverse Gender Realms?
How would the realms deal with female Elminster or Manshroon? The Seven Brothers?
Anyone? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 17:21:08
I believe the multiverse is a sub-set of the D&Dverse, or rather, they are one & the same thing. In the very first Dragon magazine Gary Gygax (writing under a pen-name) said that all (D&D) worlds started out as the same (First) world, and then as time progressed, the world split as timelines diverged, creating the multiverse that is D&D (which is what I base a lot of my homebrew on). Within the greater Omniverse (made-up of different multiverse's), I assume that each Multiverse would have started as one world that diverged (hence the Marvel multiverse, the DC comics Multiverse, the Morcockian Multiverse. On the other hand, it appears that one world may be able to exist within two separate multiverses (adding to the confusion). For example, Wonder Woman met Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, and in FR we have an example of a Newhon Ghoul. That would mean that Newhon could exist in both the DCverse and the D&Dverse, or it could mean its part of its own continuity and these characters somehow managed to traverse the omniverse.
So then we are faced with the dilemma of never knowing if we are dealing with the 'real' versions of anything, or if one can even say there is a real (true) version. Perhaps every time Elminster visits Ed, it is an Elminster from a slightly different continuity.
Part of the back-story for my Misbegotten Realms is that it exists within the normal D&Dverse, but because of its nature (its an Amalgam of other worlds), its normally avoided by Spelljammers (and is well-off the beaten path of 'the spacelanes'). Most travellers are disconcerted by the strangeness of the amalgam, and secretly fear 'running into themselves'. On the other hand, Plaeswalkers do visit Arium (my hodge-podge planet), but also avoid meeting their doubles if possible.
So with D&D, I guess you can go either way with it. In an infinite universe, these other versions of world could all exist within normal arcane space, or they could all exist within their own continuity. In fact, I would assume each multiverse would have its own rules regarding this. You might also have 'rogue planets' (spheres) that can phase into and out of conjunction with different mutiverses.
As for Toril - we know its part of a much larger multiverse/omniverse, because every DM that runs a game in FR is in his own, private little playground. I get the feeling most of the authors are the same way. If we run with that, then that would explain the continuity gaffs that spring up all the time.
But maybe thats just the tip of the iceberg - what if everyone is experiencing their own version of Toril? Or any world for that matter (like Earth, for instance)? That means each and everyone of us is existing within our own, private multiverse. So even if a group is all playing together in Toril, what they are all really doing is playing with close approximations of their friends characters (and the DM) within their own world. Thus, if you have five real people playing a D&D game together, what you really have is five different D&D games going on, all in parallel realities.
At what point does Quantum Mechanics end, and 'metaphysical' begin?  |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 14:23:20
Ups, didn't see how old the thread was |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 06:43:24
*Casts Resurrect Scroll*
Yet another interesting scroll I found while using the search feature.
I generally subscribe to the Quantum Mech view as well and assume that there are infinite Primes. I assume that the gods and other powerful entities can see into multiple planes and a few of these alternate Primes as well (it's how they 'see' the future). Higher order entities, such as Ao, are capable of seeing into more of these infinite possibilities...a fact that increases as one gets higher up on the chain of power. In my homebrew there is an ultimate Power that is truly infinite in scope (and yet is strangely limited by that fact...but that's a different discussion).
Also, just to specify, I do not subscribe to the notion that destroying the Prime world (as mentioned in the DC comics) will destroy all subsequent worlds. Technically, if there is an infinite number of Prime worlds then there is no true 'first' (or True Prime) or 'last' as they all coexist simultaneously as One. But, again, that is a different discussion. |
| EltonJ |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:07:18
currently, I subscribe to the Quantum Mechanics view (infinite possibilities). In my Realms Campaign, Evereska is being infiltrated by the Drow now. Their leader has Apostatized from the Lolthite religion and is paying homage to Tiamat instead.
Her plan is to conquer a large swath of the Surface World by subverting Evereska's government and using its population as an Army of Warrior Slaves. She already killed the Queen and replaced her, and now the King of Evereska is sharing his bed with the leader of these drow, and he is becoming increasingly mistrustful of her.
Not a normal Drow Plot (raid the surface and kill as many of the Followers of the Evil God Correllon Larethian as you can), but she's definitely moving to please Tiamat.
In order to go get proof that the Queen is not who she says she is, the players have to return to the Moonshaes and retrieve her body from the bottom of the Caverns of Chaos.
My campaign definitely takes place on a different Toril. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 08:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
<snip>
Incidentally, Netheril was doomed even without Karsus.
Total agreement here. The question is, would we have those 13 red pyramids in Ascore or the evil black Wulgreth pyramid in Karse without Karsus? I still want to know what the story behind those is, but the Realms (particularly the North) would be less interesting without them.
It would seem, no, but those are, of course, one of the great mysteries of the Realms; are they relevant because of Karsus, or is Karsus somehow relevant through his connection to them?
If the pyramid at Karse predates the town, and is the reason for its location... Was Karsus trying to tap into the contained "evil" of the Pyramids to combat the Phaerrim? Ascore was full of Netherese refugees by that point, so he could have had agents there, and then sent more off to create Karse so that he was "in" on both... Where the 13 Dire Oaks come into this, I have no idea; Karsus strengthening the connection between the two pyramids, or pre-existing things?
Too much to think about, this late at night (and so, probably, just so much rambling), but, my, most interesting indeed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 03:02:02
I see. In my case, ever since his appearance in RotA, he's been my one of my favorite characters. And I'm the kind who memorize my favorite characters' names. (Though that doesn't mean I always spell them right.) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 02:43:04
My suspicion is that this particular typo is common (due to pronunciation) and perpetuated through persistent prominence across the web; "telemont" was even offered up as suggested spelling (or at least suggested search) while typing the name on google, that's where I picked it up. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 02:36:18
Not a problem, Arik. Actually, you're not the only one, so I thought it was perhaps an alternate spelling in the game. Remember, I don't play. My knowledge of the Realms is purely based on the novels and the thoughts shared by the kind authors and designers here. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 02:19:53
I sometimes suffer from a Typo affliction, dennis, lol sorry. Telamont, as stated above. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 01:52:17
Even in Lords of Darkness and Anauroch: The Empire of Shade his name is spelled with an "a." |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 01:39:59
Telamont is the proper spelling. My error. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 00:55:38
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Shar was a necessary means to assuring survival in the Plane of Shadow, alliance or worship (even tolerance) of Shar was forged under duress, nothing more.
The said alliance is only temporary and is currently uneasy, at least on Shade's part. While Telamont recognized Shar's importance to the survival of his empire, he couldn't deny his gnawing hatred at her for engineering his wife's death. Time will come for his rightful revenge...
A bit OT:
I noticed some scribes spelled the Most High's name as Telemont, instead of Telamont. Is is just an accidental misspelling or are the two spellings official? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 14:37:50
quote:
Tyrant
... what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? ... Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar?
The only people who could answer those questions would be Karsus and Telemont, or more accurately, the first authors who write the stories about them.
Larloch is, apparently, skilled and powerful enough to challenge gods, if not Mystra then perhaps at least little Azuth. Yet he chooses not to because he's grown wise (or meek) enough over the millennia to realize that godhood isn't in his (mysterious) best interests. Perhaps Karsus would be bright enough to reach a similar conclusion, or perhaps he would be blinded by his ambition and arrogance. It think that, were he successful, Karsus would've become just as "anchored" to and dependent upon the belief of his (arcanist) followers in Netheril as was Mystryl before him. Then again, he might have been insanely arrogant and decided, Raistlin style, to merely use this as a stepping stone towards assuming control of the entire pantheon. Perhaps he'd reformat the entire cosmos, Szass Tam style, millennia before Thay was on the map.
Telemont's association with Shar is based on Shade's extra-planar exile from Faerûn, an event forced by Karsus killing Mystryl and magic. I'd think Netheril Arcanist Telemont would've continued to (properly) have nothing to do at all with any of the gods, excepting Mystryl/Karsus perhaps ... Shar was a necessary means to assuring survival in the Plane of Shadow, alliance or worship (even tolerance) of Shar was forged under duress, nothing more. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:43:29
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As for alternate possible Realms, what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? Either by absorbing Mystra's power (and all of the ramifactions of that act) or having the spell work because he targeted a different god/dess. Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar?
That's interesting. Though I'm not so sure about that last part. I'd rather see Telamont gain enough power to split the SW and have half or the larger part of it to himself, and leave the other to Shar. Despite her nigh-ubiquitousness, I still want to see her around. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I don't keep as up to date as I used to with comics. I will have to look into that. Have they given any kind of idea of what some of the differences might be?
See here:- http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29701 |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:22:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I love these types of stories. For Marvel some of my favorite stories are this type like The Age of Apocalypse and the Earth X series. Likewise two of my favorite DC stories are Superman:Red Son (super commie Superman with Lex having to stand up for the American way) and Kingdom Come.
In case you weren't already aware, you might also be interested in the upcoming 'Age of X' storyline in the pages of X-Men Legacy. It's set-up in a similar fashion to AoA, but instead of a "World Without Xavier," we've a chance to explore a "World Without the X-Men."
I don't keep as up to date as I used to with comics. I will have to look into that. Have they given any kind of idea of what some of the differences might be? I'm just curious because the timeline of events for the Age of Apocalypse made the ascension of Apocalypse seem like it was a reasonable possibility and I'm curious if it will at least kind of make sense.
As for alternate possible Realms, what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? Either by absorbing Mystra's power (and all of the ramifactions of that act) or having the spell work because he targeted a different god/dess. Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar? And so on and so on.
Or another possibility. What if the Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster had activated as it was supposed to? Would he be a copy of the genuine article? I got the impression from what was stored in the stones in the floor that this would not be the case but who knows for sure? Would he learn the end result of his folly and cast aside any attempts to retry or would his hubris remain and drive him to find a new way? Would he attempt to resurrect the Netherese Empire? Would he seek out the Shade Enclave, or one of the other survivor states? If so, towards what end? Would he awaken just after the fall, or in the "present" day? Now for the more useful question that would allow all of this to be explored in novels. What if that wasn't the only back up and at least one other is still out there waiting to activate? Following that, how much more destructive would the Karsus version of the Clone Wars be in comparison to the Manshoon variety? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:56:21
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
<snip>
Incidentally, Netheril was doomed even without Karsus.
Total agreement here. The question is, would we have those 13 red pyramids in Ascore or the evil black Wulgreth pyramid in Karse without Karsus? I still want to know what the story behind those is, but the Realms (particularly the North) would be less interesting without them. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:53:01
quote:
I'd vote for Karsus (and likely his entire enclave) being smeared out of existence by a flaming mountain hurled out of the sky.
Cataclysm, mark 2?
Incidentally, Netheril was doomed even without Karsus. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:14:56
I don't think a city full of archmages would deign put their faith to a mere lesser deity, who's just a level higher than each of them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:02:01
If anything, the Shades should have a greater affinity for worshipping Mask than Shar. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Bizzaro/negative worlds are interesting to a point, but so are ones with minor tweaks. Take one event in the realms and twist it, like have the elves win and prevent the Fall of Myth Drannor or have the Shades not worship just Shar when they return. And then expand on that...
Or have Shar drop in power instead of Selune, so the former was the Intermidary Goddess and the Latter was a greatest Goddess for years. Or have the two be fused together some how centuries ago.
Well, not all of them worship the bi*** goddess. Telamont and Brennus are prime examples, after the recent turn of events in the TW. Personally, I don't want the Shades to be tied to any deity. I'd rather see them as agnostic archwizards, like the Imaskari. Which wouldn't be far from happening once Telamont wrests control of the SW, or a large chunk of it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:18:18
Vertical and lateral displacement through time ... ugly business this infinite parallel Realms can be.
I'd vote for Karsus (and likely his entire enclave) being smeared out of existence by a flaming mountain hurled out of the sky. Whoops, somebody dropped a rock? But then, no fall of Eternal Netheril. Maybe a few more flaming mountains landing on or near other arcanists who begin to dare similar Avatar spells, perhaps a few floating cities smeared down. Modern Faerûn shaped by millenia of flowering Netheril, Shade never exiled, Moander still moldering in his prime ... |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:08:10
Bizzaro/negative worlds are interesting to a point, but so are ones with minor tweaks. Take one event in the realms and twist it, like have the elves win and prevent the Fall of Myth Drannor or have the Shades not worship just Shar when they return. And then expand on that...
Or have Shar drop in power instead of Selune, so the former was the Intermidary Goddess and the Latter was a greatest Goddess for years. Or have the two be fused together some how centuries ago. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:34:23
Nah, that's something entirely different. Unless Schrödinger's cat is black for some observers and white for others. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:08:40
HMMM, I thought I put Schroendgers cat around here somewhere??? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 21:03:15
Of course they do.
The trick to be a truly great tyranny is to convince everyone you are acting 'in their best interest'.
I had more here, but thought better of it.
Every time Zhentil keep attempted to expand its holdings (or further its mercantile goals), Cormyr was in the forefront to stop them. YET, Cormyr has annexed ohter places though out its history, sometimes with the support of the region being annexed, but more often not. Cormyr behaves FAR MORE imperialistically then Zhentil Keep ever did - they just have better 'spin doctors'. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 20:55:40
That's exactly how (I perceive) the War Wizards work in the normal Realms. The difference is in the methodologies the good-vs-evil thought police would choose to implement after detecting "possible threats against the crown". |
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