| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 03:59:22
So the thread of similar nature, Why not an Arch-villainess?, was sealed due to some perso--- er, issues.... This is a 'modified version.' To those who participated in that thread, you'll notice the difference.
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MOST female characters, both heroes and antagonists, have always taken a 'backseat' in the Realms. When the word 'archvillains' is mentioned, readers often think of Szass Tam, Telamont, Larloch, the Sojourner, Sammaster, “The Cockroach....” Not really a surprise. The realm of fantasy has always been 'a men's world,' and that's also true to FR. Heh, even in my The Villains Series thread, all the examples are males.
To provide women a much-deserved LONG EXPOSURE, why not have long-staying archvillainesses in the Realms? That is, female evil characters that do not just scrabble over a bag of gold, but those whose magical or divine power, or fighter's skills are great enough (equal or nearly equal to the might of the males aforementioned) to cause drastic changes in an entire realm or a considerable part of Faerun.
Who do you think WOULD make (with a little boost of power and longer exposure) an interesting archvillainess? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Fineva |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 09:49:26
Shar, Loviatar, many of their lady followers.
The frost maiden herself as she is a huge arch villainess with her own miniatures and D&d book. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 15:27:05
Shar, Lovatar, Tiamat, Lloth, Bashbeba, Talona, Umbrelee, seriously all the best realm villianesses are Goddesses. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 05:39:49
One of the funniest things I ever saw with the evil sexy woman trope was one of the abilities that a particular character had in Warmachine.
For a while, the majority of the female characters in Warmachine were very top-heavy and had significant amounts of cleavage...
And one in particular was a Satyxis named Skarre. The Satyxis have large horns coming out of their foreheads, and Skarre used these horns in a particular attack... called "Great Rack."
Either someone was being juvenile, or inadvertently created one of the biggest potential jokes in all of minis-based gaming.  |
| Adhriva |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 02:27:33
No actually. Take it from someone who has illustrated a few book covers in their illustrative career - the writers rarely (I'm tempted to say 'never') make apart of the story with the cover in mind. Often, they only have minimal input in the cover and that is handled by the publisher.
The trope actually got it's roots in averting a fairy tale trope where beauty also represented purity and goodness. By inverting it in literature, a dangerously deceptive element is created. There are other factors too - the 'bad boy' element (although with a change in the genders involved) also comes into play. People like that which is attractive and dangerous - like fire....or red heads (we're a category of danger unto ourselves). But this appeals more to just the reader, often it's an appeal to the the hero as temptation as well - both in terms of seductive, and in terms of showing mercy they might not necessarily show (often portrayed as a failure of due justice instead of the subtle sexism it usually is). Finally, it's an additional resource of the character to put their plan into action. It provides a sexual element when they often 'sell their soul' in a physical form, in part as a way of showing how far they're willing to go and employ every resource they have available.
It's a trope I wouldn't mind getting rid of, I'd love to see more types of villains (and heroes for that matter - of both genders even) then the young and sexy, but book covers have nothing to do with why they show up in modern literature. |
| BrianDavion |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 02:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
The one cliche I hate is that Vilainesses tend to be stereotyped as "evil and sexy".
I don't really understand the sexy stereotype. Why does she have to be attractive and have a big cleavage? Or why does she have to look like a bondage queen? If it's clear to the Heroes that she is the source of evil and villainy, then the main goal would be to kill her, burn her, cut her head off, chop her to pieces, end her existence. Are the typical Heroes supposed to be dum-dums that fall for her good looks?
a lot of the time it's just an old fantasy trope that comes with it proably comes from needing a sexy female to put on book covers etc. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 19:39:17
I didn't realize all female villian's were 'sexy' but in the case of the Shadowsil I found her interesting because, 1) She was created by Ed, 2) She was a former apprentice and lover to Elminster, 3) The little we saw of her led me to believe she wasn't all 'evil' so much as she had a flawed view of the world...the reasons for which I always wanted to understand. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 19:13:48
The one cliche I hate is that Vilainesses tend to be stereotyped as "evil and sexy".
I don't really understand the sexy stereotype. Why does she have to be attractive and have a big cleavage? Or why does she have to look like a bondage queen? If it's clear to the Heroes that she is the source of evil and villainy, then the main goal would be to kill her, burn her, cut her head off, chop her to pieces, end her existence. Are the typical Heroes supposed to be dum-dums that fall for her good looks?
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 06:53:53
Voted 'other' because...BRING BACK THE SHADOWSIL! She's the only interesting female villain the Realms has ever produced in my opinion. |
| Owesstaer |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 16:23:00
Why bother with the Baenre-lasses when you can have Lolth? |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 17:20:25
quote:
The balance may also stem from lack of writing females as physically dominant, so they are stuck to mages (Cassandra and the Shadowsil) or priestesses (Matron Malice or Triel Baenra etc.). Not many female rogues or fighters have been written on the evil side as being all powerful like say Kitiara was in Dragonlance (one of my favourite characters in fantasy).
I don't think there are a great deal of warrior/rogue villains in general regardless of gender. That might have more to do with the lack of female warrior/rogue baddies then any other factor. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 14:51:50
Aye, and I highly recommend them not just for Rashemen lore, but more so because Richard knows how to keep readers glued to his books. (If you're interested, you may read my spoiler-free reviews in the Novels section.) |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 14:08:49
I haven't read those novels (I more or less stopped reading FR novels for a few years) so I'm not referring to any time line...just musing on what I would find interesting. I will look into reading them soon though. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 12:26:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Sheesh, I keep running searches and coming across these interesting polls so please forgive me for (yet another) scroll resurrection.
I voted for a Durthan, though I would find it more interesting if a Hathran became evil (NOT through some artifact though) and acted as a spy for the Durthans.
That said, I've always wanted the Shadowsil to return and become a major evil in the Realms.
If you haven't yet, read The Masked Witches and Prophet of the Dead by RLB. They both show a good interplay between the two witch factions in Rashemen, among other things, that is.
Note also that during the Witch War, the durthans have been practically decimated. Or mayhap you're referring to a different time line? |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 23:06:28
Sheesh, I keep running searches and coming across these interesting polls so please forgive me for (yet another) scroll resurrection.
I voted for a Durthan, though I would find it more interesting if a Hathran became evil (NOT through some artifact though) and acted as a spy for the Durthans.
That said, I've always wanted the Shadowsil to return and become a major evil in the Realms. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 01:56:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd use an insane villain... It's too clichéd, and an insane villain wouldn't be as much fun as the one that you understand and can sympathize with. It's one of the reasons that Dark Chekov (Bester) from Babylon 5 remains one of my favorite villains: yeah, he was overly willing to use people and otherwise do whatever it took to achieve his goals, but his goals themselves were sometimes laudable.
An insane villain may be interesting at times, given his unpredictability. Joker is enough proof of that. (Actually, I like Joker way better than Batman.)
I myself don't use insane villains though. Just those who are on the brink of it. And my villains are usually manipulators, not all-out brawlers.
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What about a female who has no magic, no combat skills, no special weapons, but possesses a strong will, is fearless and uncompromising, and excels at manipulating people, kings and slaves alike? [Someone like Dame Vaako from Chronicles of Riddick] Do we have that kind in the Realms? I think Mirabeta, the late Overmistress of Orulin, comes close (except that she wasn't exactly fearless). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 01:16:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd use an insane villain... It's too clichéd, and an insane villain wouldn't be as much fun as the one that you understand and can sympathize with.
Insane characters, handled appropriately, can add a new kind of depth to the typical campaign. Especially if you have PCs that wish to sympathise, or, even, just try to understand the psychology behind what has made a villain this way. Of course, it also helps to have a rules-set that helps to define both the scope and management of the insane character.
And, again, this is coming from my experiences with the Call of Cthulhu game system, which is pretty much the best example on the RPG shelf, for games that really recognise the potential of bringing insane characters into any campaign.
quote:
It's one of the reasons that Dark Chekov (Bester) from Babylon 5 remains one of my favorite villains: yeah, he was overly willing to use people and otherwise do whatever it took to achieve his goals, but his goals themselves were sometimes laudable.
Funnily enough, I've got a clone of Manshoon who is unashamedly based on Bester -- he even serves as a member [with ambitions to one day rule] an organisation of telepaths and other psionic specialists, that Fzoul once founded, to help watch over the seditious populace of Zhentil Keep. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 20:51:46
Two of my earliest FR books had major female arch villains, Cassandra from Azure Bonds and the Shadowsil from Spellfire; so I guess I've never been overly concerned with a lack of female bad guys in the Realms. The Matrons in the early Drizzt novels also filled in the niche of super power evil ladies quite nicely, I found.
The balance may also stem from lack of writing females as physically dominant, so they are stuck to mages (Cassandra and the Shadowsil) or priestesses (Matron Malice or Triel Baenra etc.). Not many female rogues or fighters have been written on the evil side as being all powerful like say Kitiara was in Dragonlance (one of my favourite characters in fantasy).
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 20:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd use an insane villain... It's too clichéd, and an insane villain wouldn't be as much fun as the one that you understand and can sympathize with. It's one of the reasons that Dark Chekov (Bester) from Babylon 5 remains one of my favorite villains: yeah, he was overly willing to use people and otherwise do whatever it took to achieve his goals, but his goals themselves were sometimes laudable.
Dark Chekov! 
Yeah, Bester was actually a cool character!
I like "villains" that THINK they are doing good...it places the PCs in a difficult position sometimes.
My favorite villain played by a DM of mine was a Paladin! He thought it was best to bring law and order to the land...and we, the party, had to oppose him! He had launched a Holy Crusade from the Emirates of Ylaruam against the Soderfjord Jarldoms because so many lawless individuals used that land as a base for piracy and freebooting (as well as run of the mill banditry and brigandage). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 20:24:29
I don't know that I'd use an insane villain... It's too clichéd, and an insane villain wouldn't be as much fun as the one that you understand and can sympathize with. It's one of the reasons that Dark Chekov (Bester) from Babylon 5 remains one of my favorite villains: yeah, he was overly willing to use people and otherwise do whatever it took to achieve his goals, but his goals themselves were sometimes laudable. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 15:53:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How do you folks (meaning everyone at Candlekeep) handle insane villains in your games? Are they pitied by the good folk, or simply put down like rabid dogs?
To me, someone isn't truly a villain if they are mentally ill...though that line of "mental illness" is a very fine one that can be confusing.
To me the TRUE villains are those that cause others to suffer intentionally (whether sick in the head or not)...not just someone who has an evil alignment.
As an example: a Merchant could be Neutral Evil, willing to do all sorts of things to turn a heavy profit...but still shy away from murder or the actual harming of others. He could still be a "bad person" with an evil alignment...but that doesn't mean the Paladin should whip out the Holy Avenger and yell "Evil must die!"
Thats a fine line. To use a non realms example the Joker is completely evil and is most certifiably insane as well. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:26:16
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. I mean look at Erevis , he would still be a highly skilled thief and assassin even if Mask had not chosen him. Though Admittedly he wouldn't have ascended to godhood or saved the world.
Well, most priests depend heavenly on their priestly magic. See what happened to drow priestesses when Lolth temporarily abandoned them?
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How do you folks (meaning everyone at Candlekeep) handle insane villains in your games? Are they pitied by the good folk, or simply put down like rabid dogs?
I don't game... In my books, villains tend to be on the precipice of insanity, but not completely insane.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So she's insane. But then again, what villainess isn't?
Hey, there are lots of female "villains" who aren't insane. I myself have written several. (Though I confess I have also written several villains, male and female, who are pretty whack-a-do.)
Though I suppose it depends what you mean by "insane." Are we talking motivations or actions?
My villains are either too composed or too wild. They are calculating, but all the time, they're on the brink of 'losing it.' |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 01:51:37
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How do you folks (meaning everyone at Candlekeep) handle insane villains in your games? Are they pitied by the good folk, or simply put down like rabid dogs?
For me, it depends on the villain. And the attitudes of the goodly folk, really.
I've had few good heroes who have pitied their enemies. But, at the same time, I've had villains who have made sincere attempts to reach out to the heroes at a last moment of clarity -- before their life is ended -- only to have the heroes end the threat regardless.
I tend toward the murky-end of the relationship between good and evil characters -- heroes and villains. I've had evil heroes, and good villains and everything in-between.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 17:19:26
How do you folks (meaning everyone at Candlekeep) handle insane villains in your games? Are they pitied by the good folk, or simply put down like rabid dogs?
To me, someone isn't truly a villain if they are mentally ill...though that line of "mental illness" is a very fine one that can be confusing.
To me the TRUE villains are those that cause others to suffer intentionally (whether sick in the head or not)...not just someone who has an evil alignment.
As an example: a Merchant could be Neutral Evil, willing to do all sorts of things to turn a heavy profit...but still shy away from murder or the actual harming of others. He could still be a "bad person" with an evil alignment...but that doesn't mean the Paladin should whip out the Holy Avenger and yell "Evil must die!" |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 16:40:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So she's insane. But then again, what villainess isn't?
Hey, there are lots of female "villains" who aren't insane. I myself have written several. (Though I confess I have also written several villains, male and female, who are pretty whack-a-do.)
Though I suppose it depends what you mean by "insane." Are we talking motivations or actions?
The "insane female villain" is kind of an unpleasant narrative trope. I much prefer villains (male or female) who have understandable motives and do things that are well-planned or at least have some logical basis. I've written some crazies in my time, no lie, but I thought in most cases they were largely rational villains except for when it came to their specific neuroses, phobias, and implacable hatreds.
Cheers |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 09:55:35
Thats not necessarily true. I mean look at Erevis , he would still be a highly skilled thief and assassin even if Mask had not chosen him. Though Admittedly he wouldn't have ascended to godhood or saved the world. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:42:01
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Iyraclea wouldn't have died. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong kind of people.
Bad luck has to find some characters 
In the first place, Lady Luck was not her patron deity. Things could have been different....and better for her. Pity on her that she's a subject of a deity who's nearly as whimsical as Lolth.
It's one of the reasons I don't normally like priests. They are far too dependent on their patrons. Without their patron gods, they're nothing... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 16:01:39
I have to say that I am not a fan of archvillains, -esses or otherwise.
I do like conflict and I'm not averse to one or more sides involved in that conflict to be something that the reader could feel is 'double-plus-ungood', but I am much more in favour of political factions including a lot of different people than a singular evil mastermind employing faceless minions.
I did vote for Scyllua Darkhope, as I found her an interesting character and would have liked to see more focus on her in the 1370s era. In fact, one slumbering storyline* in my campaign involves knights sworn to her service defending the people of Scardale from various dangers. They aim to answer Cormyrean, Dalelands and Sembian propaganda about Zhentil Keep by their actions, behaving with courage, honour and nobility. Thus, they hope to make Scyllua's name s source of hope for the people of Scardale, making it far more likely that she will be accepted as heir to the rulership there in time.
Remember that few people imagine themselves to be the 'bad guys' and while some may have patently ridiculous and self-serving justifications for their actions, others may well be more admirable than characters ostensibly on the 'right' side. There are rabidly racist and bigoted Dalesmen, conniving and self-serving Cormyrean nobles and plenty of greedy and ruthless Sembians.
Scardale is a valuable piece of real estate with a potential port that could be leveraged into control of Dragon Reach trade in the future. Most of the polities around it either want it desperately or are equally desperate to prevent their enemies from having it. That kind of land-grab race isn't going to produce clear good vs. evil, it's going to reveal that the good guys don't always have lily-white motives or methods and that the bad guys couldn't hope to win if they didn't provide some benefits to those who allied with them.
*That is, certain events are taking place in the world, but unless the PCs choose to get involved, based on various hints and rumours they have heard, they will unfold off-screen and just make for more rumours they hear. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 13:57:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Iyraclea wouldn't have died. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong kind of people.
Bad luck has to find some characters |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 11:50:08
Iyraclea wouldn't have died. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong kind of people. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 09:34:44
Oh i voted for Iyraclea by the way as i was impressed with her dastardliness and power in The Rage.
Hmm it seems that pretty much all the female villians have been killed off yet for a few like Quenthel who is the The Expletive Queen of Menzoberranza. i suppose they are already reminiscing about the good old days under old Matron Banrae. |
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