| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| althen artren |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 23:15:20
Ok, here we go. Which of the famous
NPC's of the realms would u like to
see in their own novel? Name them off
and maybe well be sending WOTC a
message.
I apologise if I mispell
anything. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 16:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.
Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon.
While I wasn't a fan of Adon, I can't agree with you on Cyric. I think he was an opportunistic git who lacked the strength of character to become someone truly worthwhile. When the going got tough, he crumpled under the pressure and readily betrayed those around him, then went on to betray his former friends in order to benefit himself.
And as a deity, he's not even arisen those particular highs. He's what you'd get if the Three Stooges were evil.
I would almost be willing to undo the Time of Troubles if it meant getting rid of Cyric.
I'm in total agreement. I always found Cyric to be an overly dramatic crybaby villain, with no good justification for his behavior. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 14:27:16
I'm inclined to agree.
Cyric had potential, which was unfortunately, creatively usurped for the sake of filling too many voids in the deitific make-up all at once. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 03:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.
Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon.
While I wasn't a fan of Adon, I can't agree with you on Cyric. I think he was an opportunistic git who lacked the strength of character to become someone truly worthwhile. When the going got tough, he crumpled under the pressure and readily betrayed those around him, then went on to betray his former friends in order to benefit himself.
And as a deity, he's not even arisen those particular highs. He's what you'd get if the Three Stooges were evil.
I would almost be willing to undo the Time of Troubles if it meant getting rid of Cyric. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 27 Sep 2016 : 17:02:47
I simply want books that were scheduled but never released.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Sep 2016 : 13:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Paul Kemp created a very awesome Mask, I thought. Maybe you are talking about earlier books though which I never read? Mask is such an awesome bastard, and he actually feels realistic. Off the top of my head, he was the only god in the Realms that I liked. Lolth's son (the name escapes me) wasn't a bad god either. I don't really care for the others at all.
Vhaeraun. I'd really like to see more of him too. Since they went out of their way to trash the whole drow pantheon for 4e, I think that asking for their return to be made into a story, rather than being handwaved like they have for 5e, wouldn't be too much. Especially when their return came with a drastic change, like the newfound alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. |
| Lamora |
Posted - 27 Sep 2016 : 05:13:46
Paul Kemp created a very awesome Mask, I thought. Maybe you are talking about earlier books though which I never read? Mask is such an awesome bastard, and he actually feels realistic. Off the top of my head, he was the only god in the Realms that I liked. Lolth's son (the name escapes me) wasn't a bad god either. I don't really care for the others at all. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 27 Sep 2016 : 00:39:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd vote to novelize Halaster or Larloch. Perhaps Manshoon. Incidentally, there's a real shortage of female villains in the Realms.
To be honest - I'd half prefer my favourite villains never appear in novels.
The novels tend to do a lot of damage to cool and powerful evil/insane characters. They are sometimes portrayed as tragic/misguided anti-villains who are unwillingly condemned to plod the path of the dark side. Or they become inept blunderers who dare too much and have a conveniently exploitable crippling achilles heel. Some are just dehumanized or rendered as so randomly irrational that they become little more than predictable/unbelievable melodramatic props. What I'm saying is that these wonderful villains (with their well-established ruthless, malign, and treacherous virtues; with their power, ambition, and scheming; with all their unnerving emotionless calm or maniacal mad cackling) are often turned into convenient sacrifices upon the alter of paperback entertainment. They often emerge much worse off for the experience. They typically don't behave the way a real PC/NPC would in a campaign (certainly not one as intelligent and accomplished as these must be); they behave more like they're following unsophisticated television/Hollywood scripts. It is interesting that they can sometimes enthrall entire nations or build massive armies, and yet (even in the face of tired cliché) their allies ultimately desert or betray them when it matters most. C'mon! Powerful (evil) organizations in RL (historical and modern) attract all sorts of capable and fanatical henchmen, a few of whom are more despicable and capable of greater evil atrocities than their leaders, and who will often defend their evil cause unswervingly. Even if it's only because their loved ones will be harmed if they fail.
Szass Tam has done well for himself in the novels, if perhaps pushed just slightly over the top; more than just a lich and a zulkir, with a collection of unstoppable artifacts, alliances with (or subjugation of) ancient/divine evil powers, and limitless legions of undead. True, he's been around a few centuries and has been keeping himself busy accumulating power and knowledge in numerous short stories, so perhaps this is forgivable.
The Princes of Shade (except Telemont, Rivalen, Brennus, and perhaps Melegaunt) are all basically faceless and interchangable and don't seem to evoke any particular respect, interest, or feeling.
Other villains like Tyranthraxus, Maligor, and Cyric have been very shallow and two-dimensional. Some attempt to add interesting character flaws, backstory, or humanity is often made ... but these villains just don't quite cut it, and to be honest, each successive novelization just exaggerates them and hastens their decay even faster. True, they might achieve epic or godly levels of power but they're still just unsatisfactory bad guys who might as well be swapped with a single-session end of module BBEG. Just my opinions.
[Edit]
These comments apply just the same towards novelization sometimes eroding perfectly good heroes for generic consumption.
Maybe I'm just old school and believe it's the character that matters. Not his magical scimitars, or ability to wield spellfire or silverfire or hellfire or water-balloons, or cast mighty spells of destruction, or have psionic/mental powers, or rare (and sometimes rule-breaking) supernatural curses/gifts and abilities. A real villain or hero is based on who the character is and what he does, not on what the character's resume sheet lets him do.
On the other hand - I'll admit that my players would be terrified if I used Manshoon or Szass Tam against them, due largely to what they've read (and know I've read) about these characters in various novels. The novels, regardless of any technical or contentual "issues" they might have, do a wonderful job of adding life and depth to the Realms setting.
Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.
Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon. |
| Clegane |
Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 19:32:16
I voted other. I still want what I always would have liked pre spellplague. I always wanted a Piergeiron/Madeiron centric novel chronicling their earlier exploits and the foundation of their friendship. Written by Ed and mined from home campaign material. Or at the very least a novel centered around Waterdeep where Maderion would have had a major part as a supporting character. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 16:50:54
One I wish got more screen time was Sahbuti Shanardanda (FRCS, pg. 155). He was a monk/sorcerer/shadow adept in the employ of the Dark Moon order, dedicated to the cult of Shar and worked up and down the Sword Coast. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 17:29:34
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized.
Satisfied or disappointed depending on the quality of the novel. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 17:01:13
This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Sep 2016 : 16:49:50
I voted for the second "Other." Nar-Aidiya, the Bonfire, the ruthless leader of the Brotherhood of the True Flame would be my choice. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 02:21:11
I would also like the Srinshee to appear in a Larloch novel. If they could - and they did - appear together in a short story, why not in a novel, too?! |
| Matt James |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 17:57:37
I would love to Halaster in a novel. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 09:26:31
Wow! Larloch is winning. And here I am thinking I'm one of the very few who wish the Great Unknown to be Known. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 00:34:10
I voted Larloch :O) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 01:58:49
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T
I don't think we need worry about this. In the current roster of WotC authors, almost ALL are capable enough to show the complexities of the characters mentioned in this thread.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:18:44
Those are all excellent points, Tyrant, alt-art. A poor writer, like a poor artist, lacks the talent or skill to truly create a masterpiece.
(Can the observer perceive more beauty in a piece of art than the creator put into it? Can the antagonist in a story be more villainous than the writer can express? Perhaps the characters in these novels should only be written by dark and villainous people, lol?)
Perhaps arbitrary limitations are imposed by the publisher as well - the volume must describe other aspects (like the hero or certain plot elements) of the story in sufficient detail but remain constrained to a certain word count, or the deadline is inadequate to allow final touches, or the content may need to be edited/censored to be appropriate for a target audience or age group, etc.
Agreed with something another sage spoke - people don't really care much about the villain anyways, they want to read about Drizzt. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:06:41
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T
That is true. We run that risk with any story though. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 04:23:40
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 03:16:27
I voted Manshoon. I would like to see more of him (The Manshoon Wars in particular, founding the Zhentarim a close second)and through him we can get more of several other characters like Hesperdan and Fzoul. Having said that, books about Larloch, Halaster, and the Srinshee would make for interesting insights. A book about Mirt could make for an interesting non magic centered book (unless I've not yet read the books about Mirt's magical abilities, I've got a pretty big stack I'm working through).
Arik, we had a discussion about the idea of a villain centric series a few months ago found here. Some of the things you mentioned were brought up. I think it can be done. It's a matter of walking the tight rope of avoiding making the character a complete scum bag (evil all the time, in all areas of their life) and also avoiding making them some emo lashing out at the cruel, cruel world. They can have a tragic background, but it has to be done with care. They need that moment where they accept that their background may have lead them to the door to evil, but they chose to step through it and never look back. I also agree with your example of Szass Tam as a villain who has been done fairly well. I also think the few Princes of Shade that have been focused on have been handled well. To me, Brennus in particular is a good example. You know given who hhe is that he will probably do anything to make reborn Netheril succeed, but we also know that he deeply cared for his mother and is obviously capable of compassion. There's complexity there, even though he is evil. That's what I would like to see for some of the other villains. Mainly the human (or former human) villains. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 04:30:26
I'd vote to novelize Halaster or Larloch. Perhaps Manshoon. Incidentally, there's a real shortage of female villains in the Realms.
To be honest - I'd half prefer my favourite villains never appear in novels.
The novels tend to do a lot of damage to cool and powerful evil/insane characters. They are sometimes portrayed as tragic/misguided anti-villains who are unwillingly condemned to plod the path of the dark side. Or they become inept blunderers who dare too much and have a conveniently exploitable crippling achilles heel. Some are just dehumanized or rendered as so randomly irrational that they become little more than predictable/unbelievable melodramatic props. What I'm saying is that these wonderful villains (with their well-established ruthless, malign, and treacherous virtues; with their power, ambition, and scheming; with all their unnerving emotionless calm or maniacal mad cackling) are often turned into convenient sacrifices upon the alter of paperback entertainment. They often emerge much worse off for the experience. They typically don't behave the way a real PC/NPC would in a campaign (certainly not one as intelligent and accomplished as these must be); they behave more like they're following unsophisticated television/Hollywood scripts. It is interesting that they can sometimes enthrall entire nations or build massive armies, and yet (even in the face of tired cliché) their allies ultimately desert or betray them when it matters most. C'mon! Powerful (evil) organizations in RL (historical and modern) attract all sorts of capable and fanatical henchmen, a few of whom are more despicable and capable of greater evil atrocities than their leaders, and who will often defend their evil cause unswervingly. Even if it's only because their loved ones will be harmed if they fail.
Szass Tam has done well for himself in the novels, if perhaps pushed just slightly over the top; more than just a lich and a zulkir, with a collection of unstoppable artifacts, alliances with (or subjugation of) ancient/divine evil powers, and limitless legions of undead. True, he's been around a few centuries and has been keeping himself busy accumulating power and knowledge in numerous short stories, so perhaps this is forgivable.
The Princes of Shade (except Telemont, Rivalen, Brennus, and perhaps Melegaunt) are all basically faceless and interchangable and don't seem to evoke any particular respect, interest, or feeling.
Other villains like Tyranthraxus, Maligor, and Cyric have been very shallow and two-dimensional. Some attempt to add interesting character flaws, backstory, or humanity is often made ... but these villains just don't quite cut it, and to be honest, each successive novelization just exaggerates them and hastens their decay even faster. True, they might achieve epic or godly levels of power but they're still just unsatisfactory bad guys who might as well be swapped with a single-session end of module BBEG. Just my opinions.
[Edit]
These comments apply just the same towards novelization sometimes eroding perfectly good heroes for generic consumption.
Maybe I'm just old school and believe it's the character that matters. Not his magical scimitars, or ability to wield spellfire or silverfire or hellfire or water-balloons, or cast mighty spells of destruction, or have psionic/mental powers, or rare (and sometimes rule-breaking) supernatural curses/gifts and abilities. A real villain or hero is based on who the character is and what he does, not on what the character's resume sheet lets him do.
On the other hand - I'll admit that my players would be terrified if I used Manshoon or Szass Tam against them, due largely to what they've read (and know I've read) about these characters in various novels. The novels, regardless of any technical or contentual "issues" they might have, do a wonderful job of adding life and depth to the Realms setting. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 21:41:04
Well, needless to say I am surprised by the results so far. |
| Enwy |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 20:40:46
I'd voted "Other". Even though she's already had "War In Tethyr", I'd love to see another novel about Zaranda, and preferably Haedrak as well, since the Scholar King needs some love too. Preferably together, as their relationship makes me smile. |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 20:20:08
Olothontor, “The Minstrel Wyrm”
Or one of the other more unusual dragons. Must be either evil or one of the weaker metallics! Uber babe the song dragon or wonder wyrm the gold drake need not apply! |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 17:52:29
Halaster OF COURSE!!! |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 16:04:36
quote:
Originally posted by jaelin910
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations
I disagree. An average person can show themselves to be exceptional when put into an exceptional situation (something that often becomes over used), but not necessarily. The same goes for a person thought before hand to be exceptional, he or she can show themselves to be quite ordinary. On the other hand it could be argued that afterwards the fact that the person had been in the situation in question would make them somewhat extraordinary.
Take a robbery for example. That puts an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation; now that person can handle that situation in the ordinary (and sensible way)way of giving up their money and being scared, but some people will of course react in other ways.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 15:57:27
quote:
Originally posted by jaelin910
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations
Wait -- you're saying that being in an irregular situation means one is not average? I can't see that. Just because something happens that puts someone in a situation, it doesn't mean that the person isn't your average Joe. There's a difference between seeking out irregular situations and being an innocent bystander when one happens. |
| jaelin910 |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 14:36:02
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 04:33:34
Is that really a dwarf's name? I like how it sounds. Might use it as my dog's name. |
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