| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 03:59:08
This thought occured to me when I was trying to help Marquant Volker with naming some dwarven items in a recent thread of his: I can't seem to find how exactly to place certain words or phrases in Dwarven to make them coherent.
Now, I have a copy of Dwarves Deep, but I am struggling to find an explenation of how to do such as I mentioned above. Did Ed Greenwood ever mention such at all previously, or is this going to be something new for him ( or an equally knowledgable person) to discuss? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 13 Apr 2018 : 19:04:31
But yeah, seeing this thread of mine coming back can't help but give me a bit of a sentimental feeling. At least I'm not the only one who cares about the language of the Stout Folk. :*) |
| Starshade |
Posted - 13 Apr 2018 : 15:24:32
One question: Is this a proper "Fantasy Language" type of Dictionary, or a simpler project?
It looks heavily polysynthetic, btw. 
Why I ask, is any language not made, ends up word for word close to it's creators. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 13 Apr 2018 : 04:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's still a work in progress, but I'll send it through when I get it ship-shape.
-- George Krashos
Any news of this dwarven lexicon? I was unable to find it in Aulondo's Library or any other Candlekeep source, but that might be due to my poor grasp of the organisation of the shelves.
I'd really love to know how to say some phrases in Dwarfish.
1) Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.
2) Realms of Glittering Swords.
3) Blood-Metal or Orcslayer.
4) Earthfast.
5) City (dwarven). If there is another word for human city, I'd love to know that as well.
6) Ale.
7) Various types of strong liquor and spirits.
Having Dwarves Deep right in front of me, I'll see what I can come up with.
1) "Secrets under the Mountain" would translate to something like "deladarxothmorndin" or "deladarxundermorndin." "Barak" means shield, backbone or strength, and (unless I'm mistaken) could also mean protector or keeper, so I would suggest something like "barakdeladarxothmorndin" or "barakdeladarxundermorndin."
2) "Olor" means "Realms" or "Toril" while "runedar" means "familiar place" or "home" or "haven." "Splendarr" means something bright, shining or beautiful. "Agland" means sword. Put those all together, and you've got something like "Olorsplendarragland" or "Runedarsplendarragland."
3) "Sargh" means orc and "Arglar" means to butcher. "Corl" means to kill while "Corlar" means killer, so Orcslayer would probably translate to "Sarghcorlar" or "Sargharglar."
4) Not finding anything.
5) The closest I can find to "City" is "Runedar" (familiar place, as stated earlier). "Arau" means "great/huge/gigantic," so I'd say "Dwarf City" would likely be "Sammanaraurunedar" or literally "Shield brother's great familiar place." Not seeing any word referring to humans, unfortunately, so the closest I can come up with is "Araudaern" or "big familiar place."
6) No word for such, oddly enough. Best I can think is calling it "jarghwurn" or "jokester/idiot water." "Tindulwurn" or "clumsy water" might also suffice.
7) As above, or maybe call it "barakjarghwurn" ("strong jokester/idiot water") or "aurajarghwurn" ("great jokester/idiot water") |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Apr 2018 : 16:06:35
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's still a work in progress, but I'll send it through when I get it ship-shape.
-- George Krashos
Any news of this dwarven lexicon? I was unable to find it in Aulondo's Library or any other Candlekeep source, but that might be due to my poor grasp of the organisation of the shelves.
I'd really love to know how to say some phrases in Dwarfish.
1) Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.
2) Realms of Glittering Swords.
3) Blood-Metal or Orcslayer.
4) Earthfast.
5) City (dwarven). If there is another word for human city, I'd love to know that as well.
6) Ale.
7) Various types of strong liquor and spirits.
PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you what I've got.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 10 Apr 2018 : 14:34:14
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's still a work in progress, but I'll send it through when I get it ship-shape.
-- George Krashos
Any news of this dwarven lexicon? I was unable to find it in Aulondo's Library or any other Candlekeep source, but that might be due to my poor grasp of the organisation of the shelves.
I'd really love to know how to say some phrases in Dwarfish.
1) Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.
2) Realms of Glittering Swords.
3) Blood-Metal or Orcslayer.
4) Earthfast.
5) City (dwarven). If there is another word for human city, I'd love to know that as well.
6) Ale.
7) Various types of strong liquor and spirits. |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 01:42:22
Sweet! Can't wait! Thanks! |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 00:12:28
It's still a work in progress, but I'll send it through when I get it ship-shape.
-- George Krashos |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 14:11:32
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I made Eric Boyd's day the other week when I sent him through a dwarven lexicon.
-- George Krashos
Is that something that could be shared here? or hosted at the 'Keep? Thanks in advance! |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 14:15:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Knowing Ed, he prolly has enough notes on dwarven vocabulary to fill another tome the size of Dwarves Deep. I'm more inclined to think that "mountain" was a victim of word count and/or editting.
We know there were cuts, indeed:
quote:
The dwarven language section of FR11 was kept short [...]
For more dwarven language see also here and here. |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 05 Aug 2015 : 08:54:54
Great! Thanks! |
| Delwa |
Posted - 05 Aug 2015 : 01:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
P.S. see also this article for a few more dwarven words and sayings from Ed: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20061018a
Can anybody link to this as an archive.wizards (unbroken link)?
like so? |
| Delwa |
Posted - 05 Aug 2015 : 01:55:04
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
P.S. see also this article for a few more dwarven words and sayings from Ed: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20061018a
Can anybody link to this as an archive.wizards (unbroken link)?
like so? |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 04 Aug 2015 : 00:43:41
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
P.S. see also this article for a few more dwarven words and sayings from Ed: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20061018a
Can anybody link to this as an archive.wizards (unbroken link)? |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 03 Aug 2015 : 15:43:51
I finally heard from Ed on this after a while, and this is what he had to say about structuring sentences in Dwarven, per a FaceBook private message:
quote:
Construction [is] like English, but many dwarves in everyday speech sound like Klingon speakers, in that they bark out the minimum words necessary ("Go!" or "Agreed!" or "Hunt first!")
One grace note to add: in ancient times, many dwarves for emphasis would put the essential yes/no or verb of a sentence first, then say the sentence with verb or yes/no in its proper place. e.g.: "Yes! I agree to that, yes, and so do all of my axebrothers; we shall do that."
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 18:25:08
Very odd, isn't it? 
No Dwarven words for dwarf or mountain, nor any of the compass directions - all things closely associated with Dwarves.
I could easily create a word by combining 'hill' with 'great height' - Morndintor - but that doesn't seem right to me. It would be like a sailor calling a ship a 'big boat' - very disingenuous. Dwarves would definitely have their own word for mountain.
I also have to wonder what 'Tsorg' means - they called Kryptgarden Tsorgvudd.
And reading through Dwarves deep once-again (haven't read it cover-to-cover in years) has inspired me to continue on after my current project is done and create a new map of the north.
In PDF form, with layers associated with specific eras.  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 07:22:57
I don't think we can say for sure. Vallahir may not be a compound word. Even if it turns out to be a compound, we don't know if the either part means mountain. It could mean "high-valley." We also cannot tell where the morpheme boundaries are. It could be related to the word "lhar" (gap/pass). If so, then the other morpheme could be val instead of valla.
You could possibly use the word "momdin" (peak/crag/height).
The dwarven afterlife is named "Erackinor" which is often translated as "Dwarven mountain." It's also translated as "Dwarfhome." But we don't know that "dwarven mountain" is a literal translation; Erackinor could just be a name. Like Olympus, Fuji, or Asgard.
What's weird is that I don't see a word for "dwarf" anywhere. Need to check my sources. If Erack means dwarf, then Inor could mean home or mountain. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 18:51:33
I may have to go to Ed - I now need a word for 'North'. 
Who knew making a map-conversion would require so much lore...... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 19:11:08
I have a word that may prove useful, but I'm going to need Gray's better understanding of Ed's Dwarvish for this -
Vallahir = 'Mountain Valley'
At first I thought that means 'Valla' could mean 'Mountain', but not only don't I think it works like English, I also think 'Valla' is a far better word for 'valley' or 'Vale' (considering that many common words are derived from dwarvish). That being the case, then 'hir' should mean 'mountain'. The direct translation would be "Vale of the Mountain".
Unless of course that word is completely independent of its definition (instead of it being two words, the dwarves could easily have a separate word for something so directly related to them).
I really should ask Ed, but I know how busy he is, and this is a lot more fun. 
I thought 'cairn' could be it (as in 'Kelvin's Cairn'), but after a tiny bit of thought I ruled it out. I also think it should be phonetically related to their word for 'home' (faern), but that's just personal preference. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:09:11
That Never Winter Nights Dwarven Language page looks like some strange mish-mash of Frisian or Old English mixed with Tolkien's Dwarven tongue, Khuzdûl. Words like stroll (walk), abb (have), tanzen (dance), mi (me), corn (korn), twa (two), etc. are obvious English cognates.
Words like khuzd, rukh, burk, and shath are direct Tolkien rip-offs of the words for dwarf, orc, axe and cloud.
Looks like someone just stole Tolkien's dwarven tongue and filled out the missing parts with thinly disguised Old English (or Frisian maybe).
Ed's dwarven tongue bears no relation to Earth languages or the tongues that Tolkien created.
What feels really weird about the Neverwinter Nights webpage is that Tolkien created a triconsonantal root system for his Khuzdûl; his language had a grammar closer to semitic style tongues. But this webpage has grafted his vocabulary onto a Germanic style language. It's all very amateurish.
I guess I can give them a point for trying to cobble together some kind of dwarven language. I could probably even forgive their shoddy conlanging. It's fine for homebrew. But their wholesale plagiarism of Tolkien and posting it to a website is a faux pas of Griggsian proportion. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:04:40
I sort-of found what I needed by rummaging through some old scrolls here, but not exactly what I was looking for.
I will continue my research (since I enjoy it anyway) - I have a feeling sooner or later I will come across something in Dwarven with the word 'Mountain' in it (I'd be VERY surprised not to). Its a lot of fun reading through all these old 1e/2e products.
And if nothing turns up by the time I release my newest map, I'll ask Ed. I still have some time yet. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 04:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain.
Knowing Ed, he prolly has enough notes on dwarven vocabulary to fill another tome the size of Dwarves Deep. I'm more inclined to think that "mountain" was a victim of word count and/or editting.
That would be my reading as well.
Markus, you might want to ask Ed in his scroll. Maybe he can share some further insight on this. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:06:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain.
Knowing Ed, he prolly has enough notes on dwarven vocabulary to fill another tome the size of Dwarves Deep. I'm more inclined to think that "mountain" was a victim of word count and/or editting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:19:46
This is odd, because I am looking to name something in Dwarvish and actually came upon a recent scroll! I wasn't even looking specifically for CK - I was just Googling around.
I, too, have been looking in Dwarves Deep without getting very far. I found a Neverwinter Nights Dwarven language dictionary, but it appears not to be related to Ed's Dwarvish in anyway (which is a damn shame, if that's what they used in the game).
I can't believe Ed forgot to include a word for Mountain.
EDIT: And in the past, I have used Scottish, Russian, and German accents for Dwarves from different regions. I was going to try Irish, but then they wind-up sounding too much like Leprecauns ("and someone is always after me Lucky Charms!) |
| Shadowaxe |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 14:45:46
Great looking avatar you have there Matt!
It’s funny just how many of us use Scottish for our bearded alternate personas! However, on a very recent trip to the Highlands and Orkney, everyone I bumped into seemed to have a Yorkshire accent! (including the dry chap who drove us to Cape Wrath) maybe I should therefore introduce Broad Yorkshire as the accent for Clan Shadowaxe?
Cheers.
|
| Matt James |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 03:47:26
I do a very thick Scottish voice for my Dwarf. It's fun for those at the table and I enjoy it as well :) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 03:35:21
I must admit that mine does. When I play my dwarf Bellok I enjoy greatly expressing myself in a thick Scottish Brogue. Have no idea which particular region of Scotland his accent hails from; it's probably somewhere between Billy Connolly and Mel Gibson's Braveheart.  |
| Kno |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Dwarves of Faerûn do not speak English
Correct, they speak scottish |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 05:26:02
My main thing is this: no language translates exactly into another. And many languages have alphabets that use more or less than the 26 letters used in the English alphabet. So I can't see that substituting English letters for runes means we're reading another language. I once made up my own runic alphabet, and I did the same thing with it that we've seen with these examples of phrases spelled out in "dwarven": I swapped letters, and didn't change anything else. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 03:43:15
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Either position is valid, I suppose, and both could easily be supported without any kind of official response from the ol' Bearded One.
And I am unsure why you say this, Sage. How is Gray's thesis valid, since he has not provided a published Realms source upon which to ground it, as I have done?
I meant within the context of one's own campaign. An inventive DM can usually come up with some creative reasoning to support his/her own position regardless of what canon material says.
quote:
quote:
But given the general tone of Galuf's original request, I'm thinking he'd probably like the official take on things.
What is not already "official" about my multiple quoted references in the cited published Realms work? I do not understand the apparent insistence that the official take that we have already been given must not be trusted, but rather, we must get some other new official take, and only that should be trusted.
Again, you're missing the actual intent of my post. I'm merely noting that Ed's take would likely have something further to add -- that hasn't already been referenced in the published sources you've consulted.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Which is why I'll doubly recommend asking Ed, again, just to be sure.
That's certainly understandable, Sage, but please, if you do so, make sure and point out that that the book already provides a published answer to the main question here, but there are some who choose to dismiss it for some unknown reason.
Well, I'll note that I wasn't intentionally dismissing your efforts. Merely, I was advocating an effort to seek further input from Ed... since we all know he has multitudes of unpublished lore on a variety of subjects. And I suspect the dwarven language would likely be one of them. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 03:30:33
Not sure where you are coming from, Beast. If you use the Dethek rune key and translate the runes on the purported rune stone, you will see that the first letter is a T, the second an H, the third an I, the fourth an S. Then there's a space, and the next letter is a P, and so on. It spells out in English "This place is Dhurri's bridge..." etc.
That's not Dwarvish. That's not even Common--unless by some happenstance that common is exactly the same as modern English. But all the sources seem to imply that common isn't anything like English. Authors and designers just use English to stand in for Common because no one has actually created a Common language.
Obviously the quoted text has SVO syntax because it is written in English and English has SVO syntax. But one cannot say based on the English version in what order the words would have been placed. Perhaps the Dwarvish verbs precede their objects, or perhaps they come at the end. We just don't know from what we have been given.
Now, yes, the caption does say "Here is a drawing of a typical runestone:" However, the word "typical" does not mean "actual", it just means "of the type". It seems obvious to me that the picture is intended to give you the feel of what dwarven runestones look like, but it's not an actual runestone. The picture itself is just a composite, an idealized illustration written in English using Dethek runes. We don't even know that Dhurri and Helmung are real dwarven names.
Also, you mention that dwarven names are the same as dwarven words. We can't assume that. Names are preserved down through the ages from prior versions of languages and are even brought in from other unrelated languages.
Take English for example. Sure, you see some kids named "Flower" or "Rainbow" or "Rain." Those are good English words. But our most common names come from other languages--like Christopher which is Greek in origin and means "Christ-bearer". Alex (Alexander) is also Greek. So is Sophia. Jacob, Daniel, Matthew, David, Michael, Ethan, Zachary and Joshua are all Hebrew in origin. Anthony is Latin. Most of our most common names come from other languages.
Names really don't tell you much about a language because they tend to have spellings that are atypical for the language as a whole, often have unusual sound combinations that are not representative of the most common sounds of a language, and are based on roots that are derived from ancient versions of the language or borrowed from other languages altogether.
So when you ask "are these dwarven names, referring to dwarven individuals, and spelled out in Dethek runes, somehow not to be taken as Dwarvish words?" I would say yes, we cannot assume that they are Dwarvish words. The first Nain might have been the slave of a fire giant who led a revolt. His name could be Giantish in origin. Dhurri might be taken from a holy book written in Terran. Helmung might be a peak in the Galena mountain chain that was named by the Nar. We can't be sure that any of the sample names are Dwarvish in origin. They may be good dwarvish words or they may not. But we don't have enough data to say one way or the other.
If you can point to an example of an actual Dwarvish sentence or phrase in actual Dwarvish, we can look at it and see if we can draw any conclusions, but I don't know of any; and what you have cited are English sentences, not any examples of actual Dwarvish. |
|
|
