| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Squeen |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 20:46:06
Greetings noble wise, as this is my first message I would immediately apologize if my English is weak, I will strive to be worthy of the presence of all. I am conducting a research for a long time on the Nether Scrolls, and although it has accumulated much information, I wonder if there are answers to the following questions:
1. Individual description for each scroll? one by one? note: not for every group of ten.
2. where each are located scrolls? one by one? note: I know there is one with Morueme, one with a mummy, three with Grandfather tree. but what about the others?
3. while reading a scroll you win something? one by one? what is gained? restrictions are to be read? such as minimum value of intelligence?
if the answer is too long, please leave the references to research ...
I read books Cormanthyr, Netheril, the North, Savage Frontier and others ...
I thank you all for your attention ... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 21:06:32
The most glaring bit of Nether Scroll publication that has not been mentioned is Lynn Abbey's novel :
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Nether_Scroll
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62460.The_Nether_Scroll
https://www.amazon.com/Nether-Scroll-Forgotten-Realms-Empires/dp/B00BERO9UA
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 12:32:04
I think George accounted for the 3rd set in his article about Jergal (they ended up becoming the imaskarcana).
I had the netherese make a new set (using the lore about the improved mythallar) but it went wrong and turned into a person who became a walking weave anchor (which is basically what the nether scrolls are). |
| Starshade |
Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 12:27:10
Regarding the third set
If there is a lore controversy about it, since it is mostly written about sets one and two, making the third set be the Netherilians own product, is a solution. The third one would then be made by Netheril, and could be, if wanted, written up as an usable set for DM's by the Candlekeep scribes, and differ in content from the two original sets. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Jun 2018 : 08:35:43
That's a good lore find. |
| Grisix |
Posted - 22 Jun 2018 : 06:58:21
There is an entry in Tulrun's wiki page that *may* be describing a Nether Scroll...
"As a young man in 659 DR, Tallrunner discovered a golden scroll while exploring the lands surrounding Beorunna's Well and, against his father's wishes, travelled to Silverymoon to demand an audience with Ecamane Truesilver. Tallrunner offered his scroll to Ecamane in return for apprenticeship to a powerful wizard. Ecamane accepted the trade and sent him to Myth Drannor to study in the Incanistaeum." |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 03:47:32
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They knew about their existence. That's why Hadhrune left the safety of the palace to look for them.
And I think that Markustay (above) (and sfdragon, quoted) has the reason why Hadhrune didn't find them. The first set is scattered all over Faerun, the second set is (at this time) in Windsong Tower, and the third set is somewhere in (and presumably scattered far and wide across) Kara-Tur.
I'm aware of why he wasn't able to get them. In the first place, he should have knocked on the gate to the "palace" of Larloch (who probably has most of the sets) and asked him kindly to give him at least one.
Speaking of, has Ed revealed how many of the Scrolls Larloch currently has? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:58:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I place it with the Batrachi in 'the east' only because I felt that was more useful to a DM (same continent, and you could even use the Markers of Bezentil to get there quickly).
Interesting... I'll have to refresh my memory on the Markers of Bezentil.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since the third set is homebrew, anyone can place the third set wherever they wish, and and attribute to either of the other two (or even the Sarrukh set can be the 'missing' one, hidden below Anauroch itself).
That's an interesting idea too... perhaps it factors into the reason the desert has so stubbornly resisted attempts to restore its fertility via magic. But then... we would have to assume that the Phaerimm did not arrive in Toril until after the creation of the Nether Scrolls, or they surely would have had a hand in their creation as well... and likewise for the Sharn. What if these races were created as a consequence of the magic contained in the Nether Scrolls... and what if their "creator race" is the Nilshai (which we already know to be from the Far Realm, and not native to Toril at all, according to Unapproachable East)? The Nilshai use the lore of the Nether Scrolls to create the Sharn and the Phaerimm, both of which outstrip their parent race in magical talent and ability (probably as a consequence of the manner of their creation) and the Nilshai of Toril flee from areas controlled by the Phaerimm and the Sharn, who end up squared off against each other in an uneasy "cold war" scenario. Or perhaps this whole possibility has already been invalidated by some Realmslore that I've either forgotten or (if it's a novel) not read... 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It just never made sense to me that three races worked on two sets of something together.
I'm entirely in agreement with you on this, for reasons of simple logic.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:06:11
Well, I place it with the Batrachi in 'the east' only because I felt that was more useful to a DM (same continent, and you could even use the Markers of Bezentil to get there quickly).
Since the third set is homebrew, anyone can place the third set wherever they wish, and attribute them to either of the other two (or the Sarrukh set can even be the 'missing' one, hidden below Anauroch itself).
It just never made sense to me that three races worked on two sets of something together. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 20:23:07
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Or:
Those guys in Kara-tur can do something that those in Faerun can't do and that is keep a secret
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They knew about their existence. That's why Hadhrune left the safety of the palace to look for them.
And I think that Markustay (above) (and sfdragon, quoted) has the reason why Hadhrune didn't find them. The first set is scattered all over Faerun, the second set is (at this time) in Windsong Tower, and the third set is somewhere in (and presumably scattered far and wide across) Kara-Tur.
There is another possibility for the destination of that third set, however... what if it's the Aearee set that's missing, not the Batrachi set? That would have sent it into the West... to Anchorome or Katashaka... or perhaps it's been in Faerun all along, at the peaks of the Star Mounts in the High Forest... I mean, there must be some kind of powerful magic maintaining that barrier of wind and cloud. Just another thought... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 05:22:39
They knew about their existence. That's why Hadhrune left the safety of the palace to look for them. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 04:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder why recent Netheril-centric novels never mentioned about the scrolls. The focus is rather on the mythallars and fallen enclaves that can be reconstructed.
that may be as simple: Rebuild their empire frist and stabalize it and then look for them.
or: they just dont have a clue about their existances.
Or:
Those guys in Kara-tur can do something that those in Faerun can't do and that is keep a secret |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 20:38:29
I wonder why recent Netheril-centric novels never mentioned about the scrolls. The focus is rather on the mythallars and fallen enclaves that can be reconstructed. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Feb 2012 : 20:20:45
My theory on the matter is:
1) We know these scrolls can be transformed to contain High Magic manual.
2) We know these scrolls were made by Sarrukh.
3) In the time when Sarrukh ran around there most likely was no such thing as High Magic on Toril, or there'd be a major all-out war.
4) We know that the contents vary depending on how much the user did read before.
5) It's a major artifact.
Thus, it seems most likely that Skins of the World Serpent are an interactive Weave analyzer, building both upon its own specific approach and the user's knowledge. I.e. the scrolls won't display "the next page" after the user reads one: there aren't any - the page text will be rebuilt adjusting to the user's new knowledge. Then it's no big wonder that there's no language problems and that with a little extra effort they add High Magic results when used by a High Mage, and in the form most fitting for an elf.
If so, should, e.g. a Zakharan digitalogist somehow do the same, he'd read the stream of formulae only these guys can understand, and if an advanced being from Athas managed to planewalk to Toril and repeat the trick, the scrolls would perhaps project a contactable loregem-like mental construct, acting as a fountain of lore on psionic enchantments. And so on. |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 00:15:21
both actually, shadow and pseudonatural, the scrolls did not contain true abominable stuff, only as an add-on to Planus Mechanus it described how to get to it, even that was dangerous. And Shar is a sort of gatekeeper to there.
Primal language, there are the True Words, one of them Orcus found in the ruins of Pelion. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 19:40:04
Thats very interesting - I really like the idea of 'Forbidden Knowledge' that never made it into the Nether Scrolls. Finding such a tome would be like finding The Dead Sea Scrolls.
I think my HB lore may gain a collection of works known as The Shadow Scales (you know, to keep the theme with the Skins of the World Serpent).
Not sure if I would go shadow, or psuedo-natural (Far Realms), or maybe something else entirely like Incarnum or Kabbalism (which I lump together into Rune/written and Sibilant Chord/Spoken{sung} variations, and ties into words of power and true-Name magic).
Which reminds me - what is the name of that 'Primal Language' mentioned somewhere in source? The one that is mystical and powerful?
Anyhow, great idea there Quale - I love the way you think. |
| Quale |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 16:31:38
In my campaign they were used once. Arcanist Shekelor, later famous in Sigil for confronting the Lady, created the 51st and 52nd scroll. Containing abominable lore they were deemed apocryphal by the Baetith. The pcs found the imprisoned arcanist with the content of the scrolls branded into his skin in Rhebus. Alienist cult within the Arcane Brotherhood and from Ellyn'Taal tried to decipher it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 15:54:31
I also assume fail-safes in place that activate if the proper key-word is not used before reading, and the punishment inflicted is associated with the type of magic covered in that particular scroll.
Ergo, I postulate the scroll read by Edwin is a Treatise on Transfiguration.
Given the lighter nature of these fail-safes (the don't kill you), I would also say they were placed upon the scrolls by the Netherease, and were not part of the original design. This was to keep noisy apprentices from 'accidentally' perusing them while they were on loan to certain Archwizards.
All non-canon, of course. I haven't used the scrolls in my games, but I have thought about them, and to what degree I would want one to impact my campaign. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 05:36:39
lmao @ the idea of a few Nether Scrolls hidden "under Elminster's pointy hat" ... truly a formidable, if not impregnable, location which might indeed hide other RSEs. 
Your suggestions are excellent. I've posted some of my thoughts about where scrolls might be found. And Markustay posits an entire third set of (50) scrolls that remain entirely undiscovered ... a very interesting new idea worth considering. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 05:16:36
**** Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn SPOILER up ahead ****
In Baldur's Gate II, if Edwin is in your party and you're in the Graveyard District, he prompts you to enter the crypts in search of a Netherese Artifact. Once in the dungeon, you eventually face a senile lich named Nevaziah, who tries telling PC that he was on the run from the Cowled Wizards. Edwin then grows impatient and begins attacking the lich. Upon the party defeating the lich, Edwin takes a Nether Scroll from it, but the party can't access his inventory to get it from'em.
Upon the right dialogue options taken w/him once he gets the scroll (I forgot what they were), he eventually uses it, but messes it up completely, and transforms himself into a girl! AFAIK, there is no way in the game to change him back either!
------
Learning the lesson found in that situation, that such magic is not to be trifled with by people who seek power w/o having several contigencies for when things go wrong as such (and w/o having serious knowledge of the planes too, as I believe the Nether Scrolls don't exactly originate from Toril....even Nevaziah messed up w/the scroll before Edwin did, and Nev seems to be an ancient Netherese native from the wizard ranks!), in my Realms, the remaining Nether Scrolls of 'lesser' power are long undiscovered. And by lesser power I mean those Nether Scrolls that cast slightly improved variants of arcane spells of 7th, 8th and 9th level - the stuff of archwizards. 
But the Nether Scrolls of 'higher' power are (in my Realms, again I should reiterate, as this isn't canon) in the possession of Larloch, a former Netherese wizard who is arguably the most powerful being on Toril, if the design of his base is any indication, that is; hidden among the High Elven Magic practitioners within Myth Adofaer, travelling within the High Forest, the ethereal and Astral plane, and Arvandor; and amongst the Phaerimm.
Basically, I got'em in all the places that you shouldn't go looking unless you got a sure shot deathwish, or are impossible to find no matter how 'good' a person may think they are. Better luck finding hot springs in The High Ice.
I doubt they'd be in places like the Library of Candlekeep, Alustriel's palace in Silverymoon, Corellon's temple in Evereska, or even under Elminster's pointy hat. All those places are formidable, but not impregnable, and they know it. All those places are targets too, and all are lead by people who know better than to hide treasure that can cause RSE's within them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 04:32:45
I think even the known scrolls are immune to normal divinations. Otherwise they'd eventually all end up belonging to somebody like Larloch or Elminster, no doubt. I'm assuming that some meddling power (like Mystra) doesn't see fit to occasionally scatter the scrolls around to disseminate their arcane knowledge and keep mortals on their toes. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 22:22:50
Not if they remained hidden.
If the Terraseer had not prodded the Netherease in the right direction, would modern Sages even be aware of them?
My point was that if they do indeed exist, they may have never resurfaced. They are obviously immune to any form of Divination magic.
Besides, I have a good idea where at least a few of them wound up (if they did indeed exist). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 17:10:07
Netheril had (quasi) spelljammer ships and regular trade with Kara-Tur, at least for a while. I'd suspect they pretty much spanned the entire world, except perhaps not the Maztica continent. A fair number of (retconned 1e) arcanists specialized in what is now called divination. Once they caught even the slightest whiff of a hint or notion of a rumour that more of these fabulous Nether Scrolls exist then they'd probably get some solid serious answers pretty quick.
And those sneaky elves, well, they've had spelljammers forever (since before Toril was even created, according to some timelines) and they litter their fey-ish magical shortcuts all over the bloody place. Kara-Tur ain't so far away.
I'm pretty sure that both empires would've learned about something as potent as a full set of Nethers, at least after a while. Not saying your copper scrolls are an impossibility, just trying to say that keeping their very existence entirely secret from the "western" world, especially over the passing millennia, seems to be a little bit impossible. Of course, for all I know, the Divine Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara-Tur might have hidden the Sacred Imperial Scrolls, guarded by ninjas and samurai, never to be spoken of by the unworthy ... my Kara-Tur canon is a bit fuzzy, lol. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 16:47:09
Which is why I say they "went into the East".
They are not present in Faerūn...
They are in Kara-Tur.
Hence, NO FR history regarding them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 16:40:31
Your symmetry seems good - I'd want to read Serpent Kingdoms and learn more about the Creator Races before commenting.
The only problem with that scenario is that there's never been any evidence this third set exists. The two (known) sets were instrumental in the history of Netheril, possibly Cormanthyr. They have a long history of being coveted, stolen, hoarded, fought over ... even in the modern Realms people quest and kill over mere rumours of where the scrolls can be found. Your third (copper) set of scrolls would have to have defied all attempts at discovering and divining their presence for several thousand years. And knowing Wizbro, such a monumental artifact most certainly does not exist simply because Finder or Drizzt has never stumbled across it.
Of course this doesn't preclude the possibility that the copper scrolls were actually hidden "behind" or "under" the Weave by Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight (or by some other divine agency). Maybe they were intentionally scattered to the five corners of the universe for safekeeping ... and consequently responsible for allowing much of the cataclysmic Realms-based spellplague to resonate through the planes? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 14:37:11
There is also a theory (my own) that the Baelith(sp?) created THREE copies of the Skins of the World Serpent. The Sarrukh planned treachery upon their completion, but the Batrachi suspected it and fled into the east with the Copper set before the Sarrukh could act.
Just a theory mind you - three races, so there should be three sets. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 04:51:57
There is also information on the Scrolls (mainly their creation) in Serpent Kingdoms, mainly detailing their creation and very early information. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 12:51:32
Squeen, your project is similar to mine - that's how I found this thread. The most detailed canon I can find (in my books) about Nether scrolls -
REF5/Lords of Darkness (TSR9240, 1988, 1e/2e?)
- The Nether scrolls are barely described; they are clearly ancient and valuable but are essentially just a magical curiosity.
- Two Nether scrolls (golden scrolls bearing the unique spells Awaken Intelligence and Alter Beast) are guarded by Hsssthak in the "Mummies" adventure (thanx Wooly!)
FR5/The Savage Frontier (TSR9233, 1988, 2e) and The North (TSR1142, 1996, 2e)
- Nether scrolls are first mentioned as "a book of great magic power", then later described as a minor magic item; essentially just 100 lost ancient golden scrolls which the DM can use to introduce flavour and exotic spells into the campaign.
- At least one page of the Nether scrolls can be found in Morueme's Cave complex as part of a treasure horde belonging to the Morueme clan-family of (magic-using) blue dragons.
- DMs are advised "to put a few pages of the Nether scrolls" in the treasures of the ancient Hall of Mists (temple) under the roots of the Grandfather Tree.
Arcane Age: Netheril Empire of Magic (TSR1147, 1996, 2e)
- The properties, contents, and history of the Nether scrolls are given in great detail, they are now a minor artifact. The 100 golden sheets are actually 2 sets of 50 sheets, one set apparently being a complete copy of the second (older and tarnished) set. Each set contains endless magical lore (the pages change after each reading) and they are divided into five sections of ten scrolls each (Arcanus Fundare, Magicus Creare, Major Creare, Planus Mechanicus, and Ars Factum). Studying them will give profound insights into the fundamental nature of magic or sometimes a new spell formula, but doesn't grant any explicit game bonuses.
- The "newer" set was stolen from Netheril (by the Elves of Cormanthyr, in -3095DR), followed shortly by the "older" set mysteriously disappearing (stolen or destroyed/reformed) and somehow being divided into small groups of individual scrolls. Any Nether scrolls which subsequently appear are assumed to always be part of the older set.
Arcane Age: How the Mighty Are Fallen (TSR9540, 1996, 2e)
- The "Nether Here Nor There" side trek involves the players recovering and transporting a small cache of Nether scrolls (in ancient Netheril); the exact number of scrolls and their contents is not given, although it is implied they are important.
Arcane Age: Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves (TSR1165, 1998, 2e)
- The stolen "newer" set of 50 nether scrolls transmuted by Elven High Magic into the living Quess'Ar'Teranthvar ("Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge"), which is also a minor artifact and described in great detail. Unlike the Nether scrolls, the Golden Grove stores magical lore in an organic and intuitive manner which doesn't need to be studied sequentially. Each race and each class or discipline of magic perceives the knowledge of the Grove differently; accomplished Elven High Mages are able to study a "sixth" section of magic hidden within the interactive combinations of the other five.
Lost Empires 4: The Nether Scroll (novel, 2005)
- One Nether scroll, Arcanus Fundare Tiersus, is central to the story (set in 1368DR). The scroll's appearance and properties are described fairly well.
Return of the Archwizards 4: Realms of Shadow (novel, 2002)
- The story Trial by Ordeal (set in -470DR) briefly references Nether scrolls.
(Unknown sources)
- In -3381DR, two Nether scrolls are stolen during an incursion into the High Forest and never recovered.
- In -2436DR, an apprentice working for the Phaerimm steals seven Nether scrolls which are never recovered.
- In -1896DR, twenty four of the remaining Nether scrolls are stolen. The thieves, fearing extreme retribution for their crime, destroy the scrolls by pounding them into chunks of gold.
- Larloch (the Lich known as the Shadow King, said to be the last surviving arcanist of Netheril), is said to have collected 17 Nether Scrolls; probably including several pages of ars factum and planus mechanus, certainly including the complete arcanis fundare; it is also said that two of these particular arcanis fundare scrolls did not come from the original sets but were crafted (as gifts) by Mystra.
Nether scrolls are never mentioned in the Netheril Trilogy (novels, 1996-1998), nor in FR13/Anauroch (TSR9320, 1991, 2e).
I think a few Nether scrolls feature importantly in some modules for the NWN and Baldur's Gate computer games, but I've never played them.
I haven't read much 3e or later canon, though I know that Nether scrolls get ramped powers (grant bonus feats and levels).
Most of the Nether scrolls seem to have been scattered around the North. Some are probably still hidden in the ruins of fallen Netherese cities or places like Ascalhorn or buried in the sands of the Anauroch. Some may have been taken by fleeing Netherese arcanists (or thieves) to other lands, perhaps as far as Halruaa or beyond. A few may have later been taken to places scattered all across Faerūn; especially, for example, Silverymoon, Candlekeep (of course!), Elminster's Tower, Evermeet, Undermountain, or Thay. Or perhaps there's an ancient secret monastery dedicated to the worship of Mystra, located somewhere in what used to be called the Far Horns Forest? A nasty DM might decide that some scrolls have been gathered by the Drow, Daemonfey, Phaerimm, or Sharn, or are still sitting on some shelves in sunken Sakkors.
It seems unlikely to me that the scrolls can ever leave the Realms; I suspect they're probably somehow anchored to the Weave (if removed from the Realms they might just disintegrate then eventually reappear elsewhere). I'm partly basing this on the assumption that otherwise these juicy magics would have vanished to extra-planar predations long ago (this theory might also explain why Shade didn't have any scrolls).
Daviot's post (above) seems to pick up where mine leaves off. I'd be interested in any TSR/WotC canon references people could add. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 11:11:46
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Does anyone know more about this? Is this a module? (If so - which one?) It's driving me nuts.
REF5 Lords of Darkness, the mummy adventure. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 06:25:30
I recall an adventure in which the players found two nether scrolls, each inscribed with a new unique (and unbalanced) spell.
One of the spells allowed the caster to bestow intelligence on a living creature, the other spell allowed the caster to make permanent changes to the abilities of a living creature - they could be used together to create or change entire new races. I recall these scrolls were described as golden sheets covered in ancient magic and it was somehow implied that a full set of 100 such scrolls once existed. (I don't recall them being as powerful as later described in Arcane Ages. They certainly weren't artifacts and didn't grant the bonuses asserted in 3e and later material.)
I can't remember all the details of this adventure. The setting was some kind of crypt under the (Anauroch?) desert, the tomb of an undead (mummy?) lizard-man king, the nether scrolls were part of his treasure horde. We were playing a 2e campaign (it was '92, I think) and our DM was not a very imaginative fellow (strictly by the script) so this was definitely an official 2e (or perhaps 1e) module, possibly from Dragon or Dungeon magazines (before Jan/93, so < #190 and #39) - then again he may have creatively mixed things up a bit, for all I know. He was an avid AD&D collector, so he could have drawn from every TSR product in existence at the time.
I believe this is the very first appearance of nether scrolls in TSR canon. I suspect the spells inscribed on them weren't meant to be used by players but intended to inspire awe and wonder, perhaps introduce or hint that lizard men were once a sophisticated race, what we would now call a "creator race". (Obviously this theme has evolved into the Sarrukh creator race.)
Does anyone know more about this? Is this a module? (If so - which one?) It's driving me nuts. |
| EltonJ |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 03:11:51
quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
3. In the 3.5 Lost Empires of Faerūn book, it suggests that a single scroll is powerful enough for a character to gain a level in an arcane spellcasting character class instantly, after a week of reading the scrolls. Previous books have suggested that this method of retrieving knowledge is dangerous to the mind and that some who have studied a scroll have gone mad.
Edwin, the Red Wizard from Thay, had a sex change operation after studying one in Baldur's Gate 2. It was my favorite part about adventuring with him. :)
I'd suggest that the Nether Scrolls are a DM plot device. You use the Nether Scroll in your game and it's a way to be as mean and as nasty, or generous, as you like. I'd treat them as an artifact. |
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