| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 20 Aug 2010 : 14:43:39
Dear Scribes can any one enlighten me by revealing the approximate location of the city of Tel Verinal I know its deep beneath the Moonsea some where......???
Hmmmm sounds of chirping crickets........chrrrrrrrppppppchrrrrpppppppp |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 05:07:08
I'm really interested in this one too...and have secretly been holding off of my Ride Project until I see this one.
I was going to work an angle off of it... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 04:22:56
Let's hope your equipment is not rusty. I'd hate for you to fall to an ignominous and unknown death down there, Snow...... |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 23:10:31
Oh Woolley you are such a card.........the joker perhaps? bahahahahaha...and yes I'll get to it later this year...just gotta finish the largest empire outside of Shoulung ever seen and then find by spelunking equipment to get back to Tel Verinal |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 17:53:23
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Zireael, I doubt Tel Verinal will ever see the light of day.
Of course not, it's a drow city. Drow cities never see the light of day.  |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:33:46
Zireael, I doubt Tel Verinal will ever see the light of day.  Now Aryvaandar, approximately 225 pages?!? That is something I am eagerly anticipating. Do you need a proof-reader, Snowblood? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:05:09
Heh. I was running my own contributions to Snowblood's masterwork, until I got distracted by about three other projects. Maybe it's time to get back to it all?  |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 14:38:44
I think it got lost in Sage times black hole...he was taking the lead on it.....I sent him some stuff & I think it got run over by life..thats what happens when ya get married & have kids....sigh...and I'm 2/3 of the way through Aryvandaar...its a monster...page 156 & counting sigh!!! |
| Zireael |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 18:37:17
Did you get around to making Tel Verinal, Snowblood?
EDIT: Bump.
EDIT2: Bump. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 09 Oct 2010 : 14:29:13
Well, I've just done a half-aboleth template and thought it might come in handy if you want to get water drow for Tel Verinal.
Half-aboleth template
Type: aberration
Int +2 Wis +4 Cha +4
Base land speed 30 ft, swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: Natural armor bonus +4
SA mucus cloud
SQ amphibious
Favored class: Psion
CR: +3
ECL +4 |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 17:21:14
I remember the scene you are referring to quite well- but as I said before, what the Matrons and priestesses don't find out about will not hurt ya! Incidentally, those spiders had been SUMMONED, to kill a goblin street-cleaner slave who did not get out of a Matron's way fast enough. The soldier who stepped on the stray spider was then whipped to death. But considering that virtually EVERY House has spider guardians, mounts, and/or pets out the wha-zoo, you'd be stretching credibility to think they do not also skitter around all over the place due to rampant breeding. And since most spiders lay eggs IN THE HUNDREDS, it's a pretty good bet they'd be all over the place! Just sayin. (And have you taken a good look in a garden lately? I can walk outside my parents house and count at least a half dozen various orb-weavers ALONE! LOL! Not to mention all the little hunting spiders in the grass, widows and cob-web builders in the shed and under the porch, and even a few funnel-web types lurking about. They are much more numerous than most people think.... Food for thought for all the arachnophobes out there.)
I will grant that the LP books were a big disappointment to me. I'd have been perfectly happy to loose Selvetahrm (sp?), Kiaransalee and Ghuanadaur(do drow REALLY need an ooze god?), but killing off Eilistraee and Vaerhaun was a bit much. I do agree that only keeping Lolth was a bad idea. But as you said, that was a prep for 4th ed, so I don't count it. Essentially, I ignore anything that directly or indirectly pertains to that mess. The rest of the material was very good though, so I use it pretty freely. Anything else, I either adapt to my world, or simply go to older edition material. I try to find the good in every ource, and just ignore the rest. It works. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 10:36:19
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I take it you don't like a lot of the 3.5 drow stuff then?
Quite the contrary, I like it a lot more than the AD&D stuff, rules-wise. I don't like the way the drow are handled in Greyhawk AD&D and 3RE though, and I kindly object to much of the core stuff being put out in that Dragon and DotUD as well. The latter book was essentially being printed when within Realmspace The War of the Spider Queen and the Lady Penitent events unfolded (preparing the REalms for the deicide of Spellplague and 4E), hence DotUD told us that all old FR / core drow - deity was essentially rubbish and they had only their Spider Goddess to play with. Very disappointing and poor stuff by WotC.
We slightly divert from the topic of the thread though. If people like what is written there and want to use it, so be it.
quote:
As to the stepping on spiders, yeah that didn't make as much sense, but considering how many of them tend to live in a typical drow city, it's not entirely unlikelt that a few might get squished by accident on occassion.
Take out your books on Menzoberranzan, Sschindylryn, and the like, you will find about one incident in 30odd years of FR sourcebook- and novel-writing where a drow incidentally steps on a spider who happens to feast on a corpse. Everywhere else, you don't find more spiders walking about than in your average garden shack. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 17:04:49
I take it you don't like a lot of the 3.5 drow stuff then? I sort of thought the Tests made a lot of sense- each was detailed in what it was for and the consequences of failure. Personally, unless Lolth's gone soft in the FR, I'd say they fit her personality VERY well. And where ELSE is she going to get all those servant creatures?! Makes sense that the ones who get transformed would end up on her leash. Anyway, the whole point of those tests is to weed out the "unworthy" priestesses. Judging from the stats, and the level they are given at, none of hte tests seemed especially improbable to pass. Difficult, yes, but that's the whole point. Why make a test easy? That would be like giving kids a final test in school, and making it open-book, AND giving them the answers. In other words, pointless. Then again, Lolth really doesn't seem to be big on logic, so I suppose one could argue that she's TOO strict. I just chalk it up to her basic instability.
As to the stepping on spiders, yeah that didn't make as much sense, but considering how many of them tend to live in a typical drow city, it's not entirely unlikelt that a few might get squished by accident on occassion. The trick is not letting the priestesses FIND OUT about it!! (I'm sure plenty of commoners and disgruntled males kill them whenever they get the chance- just to spiet the priestesses. They just make sure no one SEES them do it...)
And of course- the Chad-zhak. Here's my thoughts. The article mentions that most drow women do not care for the inconvenience of child-birth and pregnency- it would be seen as vulnerability, since they are effectively reduced in mobility, energy, etc.- so the pangs (which are somewhat LIKE a feeling of sexual euphoria, not actually sexual in nature) are meant as a compensation, supposedly sent by Lolth to motivate them to keep their offspring. I liked the idea so much that I used it in a story of mine, which began with one of these battles in the womb between a twin brother and sister- where only one survived. The article gave me inspiration for what seems like a simple case of two infants jostling for room, but is in fact a bit more sinister, and ends with one ripping out the other's cord and thus causing death. Which is sort of how I see these "battles" taking place, rather than an actual "death-match" where one "devours" the other, as the article seems to suggest. I tried to think it through from a logical (and biological) stand-point. Though there is prescedent in the animal world with some species of live-bearing sharks, where the first eggs to hatch in the mother's womb eat the rest before being born. They get their first meal even before they are born!! I'm sure I could come up with other examples, but can't think of any off-hand. The point is that there are many ways of presenting this idea, and that was only one. Perhaps you'd come up with something different, but my notion just seemed sort of natural for a race that is habitually murderous. (If you're wondering, the victor in my tale was the male, and "touched" by the Dark Maiden- thus slapping Lolth in the face TWICE!!)
Keep in mind, very little has been mentioned in the canon lore for FR of their day-to-day lives, or early years other than the few lines in Homeland and Daughter of the Drow regarding those books respective protagonists. Drizzt was not a follower of Lolth to begin with, so was never subject to the tests, and Lirial was not of a level to recieve most of those tests, and by the time she WAS, she had left Lolth's sphere of influence. Another case of not being subject to them. So for MOST young drow, we really have no way of knowing whether they go through them or not.
There's just not enough lore on the subject to really say it's not applicable. In point of fact, most of the drow in the FR books either followed other deities (Vhaerhuan, Eilistraee, or apparently none in the case of most of the wizards of Sshamath) or were simply not worth her notice. The ones who WERE hers were mainly only mentioned in the WotSQ books, which took place during her Silence!! So for all we know, if things were going on as usual, they might well have been submitted to those tests if of proper level. Just because something has not been explicitly stated in canon for the FR, does not mean it doesn't or can't apply. The writers have simply not focused on those parts of their society, leaving it up for DM's to create in their own games.
Okay, before I get too far into that, I will say that the parts on drow entertainments were the most interesting to me. I had always wondered what sort of recreations a society so decadent and debauched would enjoy, and I gotta say that the ideas presented in there were quite creepy and evil. I also liked the bits on drow bards, which seemed very much in keeping with basic drow ideals. Lute strings as garrotes.... Gee, who'd have thoguht?! LOL!! ;) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 10:37:59
Like walking on spiders or mothers feeling a sexual *pang* when the children in their wombs kill each other off? The tests were hardly anything like those you encounter in any FR (up until after that article). One test - pass it and you are done for life (one way or another). Here, the tests get ever more ridiculuous (and please spare us with Lolth being capricious, evil, mean, chaotic and all that) and hardly surpassable by your everyday NPC drow priestess. If they'd go on like that, the males just have to wait and see how the lasses get done by their goddess. Still, as I said, this is all fine and well for the Greyhawk drow (who were always a touch more chaotic) or maybe some other setting, but the FR drow were detailed long before that stuff and hardly follow those lines of thought.
As of the Dragon, there is some stuff in there that is neat, no doubt (e.g., the PrC). Of course, one wonders why there was need to have the Vault of the Drow in there, only to be used and described in full once more in Drow of the Underdark (3.5E), which was not much less dissappointing a read either. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 04:32:01
Zanan, although the issue DOES feature several Greyhawk specific articles on drow ("Vault of the Drow", "Ashen Compact", and "Exiles from the Vault", mainly) most of the articles were intended to be used in ANY drow-themed campaign. Including FR. The stuff on driders was incidental, but the Tests would likely be the same from world to world. In particular, the first three articles (including the one on the tests) are really generic campaign articles, but there's nothing in them that is either world-specific or world-exclusive. I actually found a lot in them that was useful for any drow campaign. Not everyone seems to have liked that issue's contributions, but I found most of it right in line with their basic nature and mind-set. I especially liked the one titled "Flesh for Lolth: the Secret Life of Dark Elves". |
| Zanan |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 15:12:18
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(This is directly from the article: Dragon issue #298, "The Punishments of Lolth" pg 36)
This is Greyhawk / Core stuff - most in that Dragon is hardly comparable to the FR drow and some of this is, in all honesty, utter rubbish. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 07:25:31
Neither are drow for that matter, lol! Seriously, though, I'd love to see that Dragon article. As to the Moonsea, I'd be more interested in what goes on around the Moondeep Sea. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 06:27:35
I'm right now in NWN1's Official Campaign, currently juss moppin up the Fire Giant's Lair, preparing to put a hit on Klauth (and as an aside, I'm borrowing Dragon #244, which has Ed's original article on Klauth, and some drow stuff you might find interesting, which I aint read yet but I'll PM you the drop once I do!).
Normally, I think dragons are too intelligent, wise, patient, and outright awsome (and great for the eco-system and social order of things!) to ever think of killin'em, but Klauth is an outright coldblooded mass murderer, even to his own dragonkind! Dude has to be stopped.
Gettin back to drow, I saw the NWN-Hordes of the Underdark scrnshots of driders on the 'net! They're viscious looking! Even the 'man-sized' ones!
Gettin back to Tel Verinal, juss finished doin a lil' research on the Moonsea region. The citizens here appear to have a lower standard of living than their neighbors, due to the oppressive regimes by the rulers of many of the city-states. What's more, the outcast drow that come to inhabit Tel Verinal, appear to have similar backgrounds than those who would be outcast of city-states ruled by tyrants along the Moonsea. If there was an enterprising drow within Tel Verinal, say a Jarlaxle type, meeting some trustworthy surfacers, then I reckon an adventuring party that can make a difference can arise from business dealings that go on in Tel Verinal.
I guess the key issue would be getting over the lack of trust from all factions. Citizens of the Moonsea are jumpy, outcast drow are jumpy (even not-outcast, due to how the Matron Mothers in canon operate), and orcs and other humanoids who trade in Tel Verinal aren't known for their loyalty or sense of honor. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 05:22:53
Ooh! Which NWN are you playing? Or is it a campaign based on the games? Either sounds cool. And to tell the truth, I'm enjoying both books equally so far, though for obvious reasons, I'm much further into Elminster Must Die. The library had to special-order it from another library in San Antonio, so I have to finish it quick. But I'm loving both so far. (Gee, I like drow a lot? How can ya tell? LOL!!) And yeah, my campaigns ARE pretty great, if I DO say so. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 05:48:55
Gotcha. I figure then that folk would only hear of'em through underground movements, which'd surely happen, as most folk would not be that happy while living under oppressive regimes, like that of most Matron Mothers in canon.
Ha! I dub my rules 2.5 as well! I betcha our campaigns are the best!
Oh sweet! I bet you're enjoying both, prolly DWR more b/c you like drow stuff alot! I can't read two books at a time! Prolly cuz I got a Neverwinter Nights campaign goin on right now, and thats a story in itself!
Oh I didn't say my conclusions as a dispute, rather all the ideas I gathered from it. And yeah what I learned is that there's different types of driders out there (ie- some big, and some smaller).
Well, we got down to the bottom of a problem, and now I have to balance that by satisfying my bloodlust! Off to NWN I go! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 17:19:42
Hmm, see, based on the lore I've come across, it seems that knowledge of either of those deaities (or any others, for that matter) seems to be on a need-to-know basis ONLY. IE- they might be informed of them ONLY by Matrons in the know, and ONLY in the event of some confrontation or planned raid, etc. Otherwise, I'm inclined to think that the Matrons would keep such info to themselves to keep their subordinates from wandering off to follow them. That's just an educated guess, mind you. But it seems logical.
I do remember that bit of info from the 2nd ed MM, (I still use my 2nd ed book all the time in my homwbrew world campaigns! I've dubbed my rules as 2.5, due to a mix of 2nd ed and 3.5.) and I'm wondering why they did not include fighters or rogues in that book, unless it's because so many of those classes are killed off before reaching that level. My guess is the wizards and priestesses are considered more valuable to society for their skills (Duh- if a Matron has daughters who are priestesses, and a son who is a wizard, they will be more important resources than a bunch of plain fighters in the House. That's just common sense. LOL!! )
BTW, I went on a little "girls day out" trip with my mom yesterday, and lo and behold, our first stop in the big town of Denton 9compared to the one we're living in/near) yielded up my first excursion into a book store in MANY months- as mentioned above- and guess what? I picked up a copy of Dark Warrior Rising! My ordered copy of Elminster Must Die came in at the library a couple of days ago, as well, so now I'm avidly diving into both of Ed's books. (Yes, I can and often DO read more than one book at a time.... Just weird that way, I guess.) So I'm getting a good idea of where you're coming from now with that lore. Thanks for the recommendation!!
That driders are aberrations was never in dispute, really. I think it's just a matter of how one PERCEIVES such creatures, and their roles in society and/or ecology. There's plenty of room for ALL viewpoints, there. And I LOVE some of the stuff I'm finding in that new book! Might add some of it to my campaign....
And yeah, Tel Verinal IS starting to sound like a little of both!! Hmm..... *Wonders if Terrillis is Anterris's version of Tel Verinal.*
|
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 06:19:26
So I guess I got that one right (about being too arrogant and ambitious and such)! Tremendous RP potential there. It appears Lolth has her limits w/how much ego she can tolerate.
I should mention that according to the 2e MM, 60% of driders were priests/priestesses of 6th or 7th level, and it goes on to say that all others were mages of 6th, 7th or 8th level. So it looks like fighters aren't paid much attention to, thus capable of advancing to the same high class level w/o fear of being put under the drider test, unless in special cases of course.
Yeah they kill those w/flaws in Ed's Dark Warrior Rising as well. And yeah, its one of the best novels I've ever read.
I would think that Underdark drow have heard of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, juss by virtue that they were dealt the same fate as Araushnee/Lolth when they descended into the depths. That and the possible confrontations that can arise. I roleplay that she and her brother are known throughout the Underdark.
I saw an Eilistraeean worshipping drider last night when I did a google image search of driders!
Alright so I've concluded that driders are aberrations, and that they come in all shapes, sizes, varying degrees of defects, and their visciousness they displayed in their character when they were drow is that much enhanced by their new nature as driders, unless of course they're humbled by their new existance.
-------
Back on the city of Tel Verinal, it reminds me a little of Skullport and Sshamath. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 16:19:12
Off topic? I didn't think so. If there are going to be driders in it, then discussingthem would be pretty much on-topic, wouldn't it? Well, you're welcome, Zirael, and I'll get back to you on the meaning of that one when I get home and look at the issue again. And I'm glad you guys are enjoyingthe discussion. Drow are one of the few things in FR I actually know a lot about- I have only read a few FR authors, so most of my knowledge is limited to lore pertaining to the characters/events/locations in their tales. (RAS is obviously one of those- I LOVES me drow!!) |
| Zireael |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 09:09:39
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
<snip>
Turns out I was half-right- there are, in fact, two tests prior to the drider one- Chwineka (test of darkness) and Chwikezzar (test of ambition). I was actually on the wrong end of the scale for the drider test, however. It is the test that is given to weed out those drow who are TOO arrogant and ambitious, or who think they are beyond her wrath. (This is directly from the article: Dragon issue #298, "The Punishments of Lolth" pg 36)
<snip>
Wow, thanks. So "Chwi" means "test". What does "chwidencha" (you know, the monster from Demonweb Pits) [stats in 3e Fiend Folio] mean?
And on the "drider of Eilistraee" concept. There is mention of the Dark Maiden in the "Ecology of the Drider" article. So I guess it's possible, but VEEEERY rare.
Side note: We've veered really off topic... I can't wait for Tel Verinal to come out, especially if it's going to include driders! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 07:19:18
Aha! Found it!! It wasn't entirely off the top of my head, actually. I don't know about the wiki entries, (I usually take those with a grain of salt- okay, a handful- as they are often riddled with errors due to typos, misquotes, and outright lack of research.) as I took it directly from the original source- namely, the Dragon article. I finally dug out my copy of the issue in question with the article on tests. Turns out I was half-right- there are, in fact, two tests prior to the drider one- Chwineka (test of darkness) and Chwikezzar (test of ambition). I was actually on the wrong end of the scale for the drider test, however. It is the test that is given to weed out those drow who are TOO arrogant and ambitious, or who think they are beyond her wrath. (This is directly from the article: Dragon issue #298, "The Punishments of Lolth" pg 36)
You brought up an interesting point about drow not taking the test, but this is typically ascribed to the fact that most drow never advance to 6th level, simply because they are not that ambitious, skilled, or they are killed off beforehand. As with nearly all societies in D&D, most members of a given race are 1st or 2nd level or lower (ie: the "common" folk of a race as opposed to adventurers and powerful individuals). So it's really not much of a gauge on that score. On the other hand, it's also possible that she only shows interest in those who prove especially talented in a field, so she only tests those she thinks are "worthy" of her attention. (Capricious, again!) So one could go either way on that issue.
Mainstream sexy? ROFLOL!!! That's ONE way of putting it! From what lore I've read (see Daughter of the Drow) they usually KILL those with flaws rather than cast them out. Infants who have physical handicaps generally end up on Lolth's altars, rather than be allowed to grow up and use resources better used for "stronger" or more worthy drow. My assessment on their attitudes about beauty were based on this. But yes, I'm sure there are PLENTY of males who are happy to be boy-toys! So long as they keep the ladies happy- if not, I'd hate to be in THEIR shoes....
Moving along, Yes and no about the multiple eyes thing. I've seen pics both ways (Try Deviant Art- there are lots of drider pics, if you know where to look!), but by compound, I really meant the compound, segmented eyes of nearly all arthropods including crabs, insects, and other weird, icky things, lol! (Yea! More biology. *snickers*) Like the eyes of a fly seen close-up: formed of many tiny hexagonal lenses all joined together, in a dome-shaped structure. Each has its own rods, cones, and retinal and nerve tissues, and all come together to join almost directly to the brain. In other words, each individual lens creates a separate image, and they are sorted in the brain to create an over-all picture, as opposed to the single image a human eye sees. Probably confusing to us, but the spiders and their ilk seem to get along just fine that way, and in fact have a wider visual range and perception than we do, at least over a distance relative to their size. What that means is that they can see VERY well both light, movement, and color for a distance of several feet. One the size of a human would see much farther and more light and detail than we do! (There is speculation among some scientists that they see a wider color-spectrum, as well- true infra-vision!)
Okay, yes I brought up the drider/aranea relationship theory first, but my last comment on that was based more on your reply. Just to clear that up. That was an interesting idea about them being created while she was Araushnee, by the way. As to Eilistraee, for obvious reasons, most drow are never even informed of her existence, lest they start looking elsewhere than Lolth for a power to serve. As far as I recall, it is mostly the Matrons and other High Priestess who know of her at all. Or those whom her followers actively seek out or who learn of her through travel to the surface. Which is probably why more of them don't follow her. Same with Vhaeraun and the rest. And you made me think of a truly bizzar idea- an Eilistraeean drider?! Wow, talk about a slap in Lolth's face....
I've not read that book yet, and didn't even know it existed (haven't been within a mile of any book store in well over a year and a half) so there may be lore in it that I've not seen yet. If it's as good as you say, I may have to put it on my reading "to-do" list.
-----------------------------
Dissecting? Lol, indeed we have! *Starts digging around in drider parts* Hmmm, I know I left that scalpel here somewhere....
|
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 05:33:01
N/p! This is my 1st time doin a multi-day in-depth study on driders, so no way I oughta be acting like an expert. And even if I was, the game is so vast, and intelligent creatures of the same race are so varied from eachother (juss like humans, and not even twins are fully alike), that there's no way an expert's lone view should be the only authority on it.
Oh man its only been a day and I've totally forgotten what the cover looked like! I saw #312 and then juss pounced! LOL! But I don't think it had 2 drow chicks on the cover. Might've though.
Wow! So many different ways to play each drider! Some'em you can RP that they wanna be solitary like a spider as you juss pointed out, and others you can RP that they want people around'em, even despite coming from the uber-tough drow society (they're still demihuman, and thus its only natural to want to be around other human/demihuman folk, and I reckon all drow know about Lolth's daughter, the goddess Elistraee and what she believes in), and can look at drider-ness as a way to start a life away from drow drama n stuff, as you illustrated.
Hot damn spiders are tough! Poison *AND* paralysis! I guess we can RP that when the poison dmg (from 2e; I know its different in 3e) from a huge spider hits an adventurer, they're so freaked out by the pain of the bite on thier insides, that no time for to experience the paralysis part! I'm still freaked out by learnin about the tissues being liquified! It's like a small variation of the 8th level arcane spell Horrid Wilting!
I've never seen a pic of driders w/multiple sets of eyes, but I'll take your word for it. Also we can RP that driders have a template, but all are different variants of it. I've seen pics of them w/a small spider base, and others w/a massive spider base! Similarly we can RP that some'em got drow eyes, and some'em got multiple sets of eyes.
LOL! That was actually your comment, of driders being akin to araneas! I haven't thought of araneas in God knows how long! And I guess *if* they were created by Lolth, perhaps it might've been when she was still known as Arunshee, as araneas are found in any terrain (land or subterrainean), and can be of any alignment, juss like most intelligent creatures.
Oh yeah, in Ed's Dark Warrior Rising, the drow of one particular city cast out those w/physical flaws (from amputees to overweight ppl; anything less than 'mainstream sexy' seems to be cast out), and do it in the name of their goddess, even though its not 'doctrine.' They juss do it in the name of their goddess, in their quest for power and to overpower. So yeah, Lolth may initiate the virtues of beauty in her religious book I guess, but the society takes it too far in their scheming, kinda like how a number of people deliberately manipulate bible verses toward their own goal outside of the good that was intended from it.
Ha! Juss like all driders are different, all drow males are different too! A number may, as you pointed out, want to jump on the 1st ticket out of Matrons grasp, no matter what it may be, and others may well be fully content to spend their lives being the Matrons and the female upstarts' playthings! Or even juss to earn enough status, or even enough commoner coin, to be pleasured by the female commoners, slave females, or 'coinlasses' of Drow society. But yeah I agree w/you there, that sex is all too often used to acquire more power in drow society.
No need to think it off the top of your head. Juss google "chwidridera" and you'll find a number of sites that detail each punishment of Lolth. That's where I got the 'weed out traitors and unfaithful' part I wrote.
Overpriced? Naw, she juss wants you to know you gotta earn your keep! LOL! But for real, after reading Ed's Dark Warrior Rising (juss finished it 2 nights ago; one of the best novels I've ever read, period. Gotta get my hands on "Dark Vengeance" now!), it makes me feel as if the official FR canon lore on Lolth and drow society is 'incomplete,' for lack of a better word (the fact that this thread alone on Tel Verinal has attracted so much attention, yet isn't detailed in any novel or sourcebook, attests to my 'incomplete' claim enough, I feel).
Like before picking up that book, I would've fully agreed w/you. But now I'm inclined to believe that most drow don't go through those crazy tests and punishments (but of course do indeed still live in fear of the Matron mothers and other ruling mortal powers, and the dangerous games they constantly play). But at the same time, the AD&D game's primary feature is building up a party of adventurers, so it makes sense that FR drow lore concentrated on things powerful PC's and NPC's in drow culture would go through or observe, upon becoming someone of some renown (or even before so, as was the case w/young Drizzt, being Zakafein's son).
I wrote all that to say that after reading Ed's book, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Lolth doesn't care two wits about her followers. I would've fully agreed w/that assessment BEFORE reading Ed's book though. So yeah, I'm fully recommending everyone interested in enhancing their drow campaigns to read that book. As a DM, I don't think I've ever written up a story that went into major detail in the Underdark (not that drow weren't intriguing enough, I juss wanted to explore other Realmslore), rather only doing only a little, juss to enhance my campaigns on the surface. But I gotta say, the book I juss read made Underdark campaigns that much more interesting to me, in large part due to the new perspectives I see of Lolth (disguised as it is in the book, and often with 'reading between the lines' necessary, as is the case w/most of Ed's rockin lore).
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Looks like we did well in dissecting the drider!
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 18:17:33
Firstly, I'd like to say thanks for being so open-minded about all of this. We both have great points, and it's nice to have a discussion like this without the other side tryin to shoot everything down completely. And yes, it was a Dragon article the tests were in (Didn't I mention that? Thought I did...) Does the one he has have two drow chicks jumping off an exploding bridge on it? That't the cover of the one I have- unfortunately, I don't have it at hand ATM, so I don't know if #312 is the issue #.
Okay. I can see how one might think the spider aspcet would create conflict. Perhaps there is some inner turmoil that makes driders a bit "angsty" for lack of a better term. but I don't think it would be enough to cause any problems in a fight, or within any society they might make for themselves. Besides which, most spiders are solitary creatures, so it would probably not matter as much to a drider what anyone thinks of him/her.
Incidentally, the venom of nearly ALL spiders causes paralysis in the prey as a secondary effect to the primary one of digestion. It's much like the slaiva of leeches that keeps the host from realizing it is there whil it keeps blood from clotting so it can feed. You'd think the creators of the driders would have looked into that.  (As you can see, I like to use real-world biology to explain why things are a certain way in-game, whether as hooks, or simple bg.) And the venom sacks would be in the upper jaw cavity, which is why their heads are slightly distorted-looking.
They clearly have compound eyes, too, which means greater peripheral vision, but no ability to shift their eyes within the sockets, as compound eyes are fixed. This is why spiders always turn to face a threat or prey- their eyes cannot move independantly of their head. (My mutant hero Red-Back has the same problem- if something is behind him, he has to turn his entere head to see it as he cant move his eyes in any direction!) However, a spider's sensitivity to vibrations makes up for this quite a bit. (My theory on Pete's "Spider-sense" is that he's really just hyper-sensitive to vibrations in surroundings.) Okay, there's the biology lesson for the day, lol!
Your comment about them being related to araneas brings up some interesting ideas, BTW. There was speculation on the D&D forum a long time ago (google aranea to find it, as I don't remember location) that they might have been created by Lolth. The thread mentioned an obscure source that suggested they were "children" of Lolth. It might be possible for driders to reproduce with one, as they DO have a hybrid form, and in fact it could be that this might be the ONLY way for a dider to breed. Mayhap they might even be descended from the offspring of the FIRST driders created? (Hmm.... Now THERE'S a plot hook for ya!) 
Okay, here are my thoughts on the subject of drow and beauty. Drow are elves, so they would naturally appreciate beauty. Added to this is their belief that any detectable physical flaw (like blindness) is simply "weakness", and is therefore ruthlessly stamped out. (Who wants weak kids? ) So I don't really think that Lolth has much to do with their views on beauty. It's really just another aspect of their thirst for power. And not all drow are even beautiful by elven or even human standards. Some have been described as plain or even almost homely. So while they are indeed interested in beauty, it is more for power and for breeding than an appreciation for beauty for its own sake.
Which leads me to another point. While it's true that most drow are sex-obsessed, this too is more for breeding and status. (More kids = more power) And I'd think that many drow males would disagree with you about WANTING to attract the opposite sex. Given the way they are treated, with grasping females wanting them to do nothing but fight or mate all the time, some of them might even see the drider "curse" as a relief from over-sexed Matrons! It has been mentione that this may be one of the reasons so many drow males "disappear" or go on LOOONG patrols away from home. with women like that at home, I would too!! Mayhap that drider god mentioned earlier would start to sound like a good alternative? "Harried drow male: 'Wait, you meant I don't have to keep playing boy-toy to Matron X because I'll be a hideous beast?! Sign me up!!'" LOL, that's a joke, but you get the point. 
Also, the chwidridera is actually the 2nd or 3rd test, I believe. If I remember the article correctly, there were one or two minor tests before that. And it is not intended to weed out traiters, but those who have no ambition. In fact, as per ALL of the tests, traitors and unfaithful are actually IMMUNE to them, because Lolth has no hold on them, and cannot affect them with ANY of the tests! (Makes a great reason to follow some other deity, or none at all! )
Lastly, you DO realize this is Lolth we are talking about, right? EVERYTHING she DOES is overpriced, lol! If you look at how she treats her followers, and epecially at the tests, the drider curse is really just one more way she shows that she doesn't care two whits for the well-being of her followers - physical OR mental. And to be honest, it's actually rather tame for her tests. Nearly all of the others either end in death or turning you into something MUCH worse than a drider. (like the spider-leg horror- that one's just nasty...) And there is NO reward for 'passing" these tests. Just being allowed to continue to exist. That's it. I'd say the driders get off easy, all things considered. Plus, there's still that possibility that she might use them for her own future purposes- after all, it DOES put them more fully under her control! (This ties into my thoughts about them not being ambitious- she could certainly FORCE them to do her bidding in this form, as she had domination over arachnids. Capricious, indeed! )
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| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 06:22:44
The way I considered the spider aspect is how it wars and taints the drow aspect of each drider, wherein they can't even enjoy the simple pleasures outside of battle w/o the spider taint ruining it within them. Given this such punishment, I think Lolth put alot of thought into making sure driders don't feel good about themselves in anything.
Ah! The araneas, the non-lycanthrope werespiders! I have to half-disagree Alystra, b/c araneas are a natural creature that were born the way they are, whereas driders are always drow (demihuman) who have now become an aberration. I think while the araneas poison ability comes innately from itself and causing it no harm, I imagine that the drider's poison ability comes from its lower body, and while not poisoning its drow-type torso in its travel to the fangs, I can only imagine it doesn't provide positive or even neutral feelings within it. The drider's poison bite is the only part of its upper body that has spider physical characteristics, and according to the 2e MM, it gives the foe paralyzation, not hp damage like every other 2e spider poison that I'm aware of, except the 'watch' spider (which also gives paralyzation, and it lasts longer than that of driders).
Of course that is juss my take on it, inferring as I do based on the 2e MM, so at the same time, I have to half-agree w/you, as what I wrote is all I got. But there is the fact that araneas can eat meat and juss enjoy it for meat, whereas driders always want blood above all else, different from their former drow nature, and different from the araneas' build. So my conclusion here is that b/c drider's are aberration, we can play this both ways, either that they're afflicted as per my belief, or are akin to araneas, as you've shown.
Alystra wrote: "a spider's venom is really a modified saliva with acids, which dissolves tissues, so the spider can suck them out of the prey in liquid form."
Ack! So that's what was happening when my PC was taking 5dmg/rd of spider poison in the BG series (2e)! Gross!!! Thank God for Neutralize Poison and curative magicks and the party members who cast them! Hot damn!
I don't think ideas of drow vanity are that easy to let go of, Alystra. From their youth they've been raised w/Lolth's ideas of beauty in their religious upbringing and every aspect of their social culture, that dictates that status is everything, as w/the better social status one has in drow culture, the more opportunities w/the opposite sex. And given the upper torso of drider is that of a drow, the pituitary gland is still intact, and is thinking about sexual attraction to drow, while the lower body, being that of a massive spider, is sending signals about mating w/a spider! I don't think Lolth was trying to make a natural demihuman/spider like an areneas, as much as she's amusing herself at their expense in the various aberration conundrums she now puts them through. I'm sure the araneas has no such conundrum, being a natural creature, unlike the aberration drider.
As for power, driders can't advance in station in drow society. So if they were lusting after power as a drow, their new body has now provided them yet another conundrum! And yes, Lolth never gives something w/o asking a high price, unless its something like this, in which I assume is something that gives her constant comedic pleasure.
I'm sure the spider part has very large influences as well, but the only positive I can think of is more battle awareness due to always being 'on,' and like I said in my last post, that doesn't seem like much of a positive. I can only envision the spider part tainting everything unto madness. I don't believe driders are akin to araneas, as much as they're an aberration variant of them.
Good info about Malice. It appears she was simply threatening and things like that.
Alystra wrote: "But if most of the tests end up being fatal, why would she allow any failures to continue as a more powerful being? Makes you wonder."
Indeed. My take is that while driders are innately more powerful than drow (in 1-on-1 scenarios in terms of innate strength, size, movement, and versatility; not including any other factors, which makes them only superficially more powerful than drow, like how a bear is stronger than a human), the drow have one big advantage: They aren't innately at war within themselves like how I believe driders constantly are. Drow have social pressures, yes, but their bodies aren't tellin them 2 different things at once seemingly at every turn and at every moment like how I think driders seem to have it. And drows have time to mentally recover from having their game faces on, unlike the driders. It looks like the driders innately have much less room for error, and a whole lot more things within themselves that need to be kept under wraps for their own stability's sake. So while they're more powerful at a glance, a 2nd look makes me believe that Lolth has hit the nail right on the head, makin the drider feel more powerful than they were before, but at such a high cost to everything else, and that seemingly w/no stone being left unturned.
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Just went earlier today to check some of my friend's 3e stuff, including some old Dragon magazines he got! He doesn't have all of'em, but he did have #312 (knew it from the drider entry on FR Wikia)! Awsome!
I'll juss let off a few quotes I copied, not to argue w/you or hammer my point (as you've made some great points, and b/c there's more than 1 drider, it makes full sense for DMs to use both of our ideas for their campaigns!), but juss to show the vastness of this situation. I've picked quotes that seem to help both our individual POV's, and also some that seem to smash both of them! LOL!
1) Pg 4 (ToC): "Lloth's cursed creations lead lives of bitterness and anguish."
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2) Pg 77: "..Cursed by Lolth, the very goddess who once favored them, driders burn w/shame n bloodlust to match the evil and depravity of their former lives."
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3) Pg 77: ".....so puts her Chosen through a secret, diabolical test. The exact nature of the test may vary from one candidate to the next, but no one ever speaks of it---pass or fail."
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4) Pg 77: "Although it is heresay to speak it, some believe Lolth creates driders capriciously."
My note: Alright that destroys whatever point the both of us are trying to make! LOL!
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5) Pg 77: "Driders are made, not born."
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6) "...filled with a craving for warm-blooded prey. Its anarchid hunger is guided by a malevolent soul and an intellect darkened by self-loathing and hatred for all drow."
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7) "....she (Lolth) still allows drider clerics access to her domains. Perhaps she wishes them to test other servants, who will either become stronger or perish to the outcasts' poisoned fangs."
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A quick google of "tests of Lolth" and I was thereof able to get info on the chwiloth, the final of the 8 punishments of hers. Is that from a Dragon Magazine issue that you were addressing? If so, the Chwidridera is the 1st punishment, and that's the one that decides if someone is to be drider or not. It says its goal is to weed out traitors or the unfaithful. I believe those terms are completely subjective regarding both of our POV's. Juss like the designers wanted it, for DM's to brainstorm like this! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 17:43:38
You have some good points, blade, and I see where you're coming from, but I think you are forgetting one VERY important factor. the spider aspect. We tend to think in terms of humanoid side of things, but the transformation really does make them much more spider-like. A similar behavior is exibited by araneas, whcih are shape-shifting spiders capable of becoming fully humanoid, and yet retaining all of a spider's natural behavior. Stalking, ambush tactics, "drinking blood"- these are all spider behaviors. As to the blood-drinking itself, a spider's venom is really a modified saliva with acids, which dissolves tissues, so the spider can suck them out of the prey in liquid form. A drider would most likely feed in the same way, since they have the fangs and mouth-parts for it. It's not a SUBSTITUTE for food- it IS their food!
Moving on, their ideas of beauty are probably much more in line with what a spider's would be, too. Drow vanity aside, drow in general are attracted to power over all else, so the loss of physical attractiveness may be a small price to pay- and we all know that Lolth would NEVER give something without askinga high price. And considering the natural drow talent for magic, they could easily make their upper half more attractive, and many spiders are actually quite beautiful creatures intheir own right. Their ideas of "beauty" might include a larger abdomen, larger or more prominent palps, hairier legs, striking markings and the like. Simply because they retain their humanoid intelligence dos not mean they keep the same point of view. The spider part probably has a very large influences, as well.
As for the drider test itself, it is simply a guage of ambition, or lack thereof. Dragon did an entire article on the Tests of Lolth (fogot # ATM) which mentioned the requirements and consequences of ll the tests. Those who FAIL to show proper ambition are the ones who become driders, which may not be such a bad thing. Perhaps she trnsforms them as part of some plan which requires them to be removed from ormal drow society. They have already demonstrated that they care little for normal drow politics, so they are more suited to whatever purpose she has for them that neccessitate a role outside the mainstream.
Hmm, as for Malice, in Homeland, she never mentioned that it was Lolth's will when she threatened him, and in fact, she was simply pissed that he "disobeyed" when he refusedto take part in the "Graduation ceremony". (read- orgy) In the Realms of the Underdark story, the ritual was being performed by lesser priestesses, so Malice would have been more than capable of doing it herself, and would not have needed to fear such a fate for herself, as she was a High Priestess herself. (A High Priestess must be AT LEAST lvl 10, which is far past the time a drow would be subjected to the drider test.)
Another note is that the Test of the Drider is one of the FEW that does not result in the death of the candidate upon failure, which lead one to think that Lolth herself might still have plans in mind for the "failure", and as you said, if she truly wanted to "punish" them, she could simply have chosen a means of killing them if they failed! Interestingly, the tests are collectively called the "Chwi'Lolth" or "Punishments of Lolth," even though they are understood to be tests of drow abilities and mentality. The insinuation is that those who fail are punished (most often with a horrible death), and even the ones who "pass" get no reward other than continued existance. But if most of the tests end up being fatal, why would she allow any failures to continue as a more powerful being? Makes you wonder... Especially when a couple of the later ones also transform the victim into very powerful servant creatures. And those all end up becoming part of the "tests" for other drow! (so does that mean that they are really being allowed to help her weed out the weaker members? sounds more like an "honor" to me... unwilling, perhaps, but that seems to fit her perverse sense of justice.)
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| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 06:45:54
Alystra, your opinions on the drider are different than mine, yet I think they're really good to go with in a campaign! Good thing there's more than one drider, eh? Well, I mean, good for us, for our various campaign's sake!
W/all the punishments that go w/becoming a drider, I don't see how its anything but a curse! I mean, a person would have to REALLY hate his/herself already (and the various opportunities that come w/being a comely bipedal drow in all areas of drow life) to prefer becoming a drider! It's not like a Polymorph Self spell, wherein you get back to being your bipedal normal self once the spell duration finishes. Rather its an aberration form for life!
I think Lolth's thinking was that if she didn't make driders powerful (as they retain their class abilities to go w/new powers in their new form), then they'd have no incentive to do anything, and they'd juss kill themselves. I think that's contrary to Lloth's will for them. After all, she can outright kill'em, or find various ways to torture'em for a time before killing'em, if she felt like it.
Rather, I think she wants them to suffer, being tortured longterm in thier own flesh (think about the new DNA that makes'em lust after blood over food) w/no escape save a longshot of finding the right high-level arcane magic (what are the chances of that, eh?), hating themselves for the emotional pain whenever thinking about what they are now vs. what they were and the opportunities as drow that they once had, yet still having facilities and skills to further her goals, and being productive for the Drow race (indirectly, as they are outcast). All of this while also setting a disgusting and horrid example for the uncursed of her followers, especially those who knew what this person was like when they were drow.
I think a good thing to do is study and infer (as that's all we can do by virtue of how the drider lore is written, I reckon on purpose so DMs have a template, but can have a different story for every different drider) the process of how a drow gets cursed into becoming drider, for to try to infer what exactly is Lolth's thought process in deciding why this or that person is to be cursed unto becoming a drider. So for me, its back to the 2e Monstrous Manual, pg 113!
It says in one part: "When a dark elf of above-average abilities reaches 6th level, the goddess may put him or her through a special test. Failures become driders."
This is juss 2 sentences, but I think it says an absolute mouthful regarding Lolth's thinking about driders, and I wanna explore it! I've done so before for myself, but now I really wanna get to the bottom of this, here in our thread! I find it fascinating!
A 2e 6th-lvl priest(ess) has between 27,500xp to 54,999xp under thier belt. I feel this makes them above average in thier profession. They either have alot of kills under their belt, or have solved a number of imperative quests w/o violence (which is even more impressive than having lotta kills, IMO - but I got into AD&D via PC gaming, so you know I dig a good hack'n'slash romp n spell-blasting things to bits, now'n'then!), or a combination of both. So regardless of how they got that vast amount of xp, in the end they're either really impressive or really fearsome. W/o a doubt, these individuals have power, w/obvious potential for to acquire more power, via their skills, wit, and confidence in their abilities that they've developed.
I feel that answers the question of *why* Lolth puts these specific individuals through the 'special' tests, so now comes the ?'tion of *what* is it that ticks Lolth off, unto cursin these powerful individuals into becoming a drider, instead of outright killing or incapacitating them? Obviously, she didn't have minor or intense short-term punishments in mind! Ha!
The things I've thus far been able to come up with are these:
-These folk were of above average ability and experience, so in Lolth's mind I reckon she's thinking it'd be a shame to let such 'assets' go to a complete waste - which is what killing or incapacitating them would do - but at the same time, she doesn't want them in mainstream, or even on the fringes, of drow societies. Perhaps protecting her people from a potential unfavoured tyrant, and yet as a drider, they still have the capacity to 'serve' her people (while being beyond the fringes of them; 1st line of defense before the army's 1st line of defense goes to work, sort of thing - gambits by default, if you will).
-There must've been a major character flaw that Lolth saw in them, wherein she didn't want them to advance in power as a drow (or polymorph for a time into a creature of their choice, like a 100% magic resistant golem, or w/the right spell components, a drow-dragon!). Perhaps this flaw was that he/she was seeking to abuse, manipulate, or murder those whom Lolth has true favour upon (secret or open favour).
-To me, the drider reeks of open mockery of both drow (Lolth's chosen ppl), and spider (Lolth's favoured creature). Mockery of drow b/c it has no comely/reproductive or social value to Drow society other than being a real tale to discipline the kids with; and mockery of a spider, b/c they were once drow, and are now reduced to being akin to a potentially viscious pet! A pet which is unloved as they are now destined to live beyond the fringes of Drow society, unlike that of actual spiders, who get to walk around freely in the streets of Lolth-based cities and even have their own feeding spots!.....
....And I wrote all that to say that being a drider goes on to the mockery that pg 113 of the 2e MM closes with on the subject: "They (driders) stalk their victims tirelessly, waiting for the right chance to strike."......
....To me, that's like saying that instead of 'gettin your game face on,' you now ALWAYS got your game face on, whether you want it on or not! That means little to no room to enjoy the pleasures of life outside of hunting/killing, even though you still have the upper torso of a drow (demihuman), and thus have the blood, mind, and heart to want to experience the beauty of life outside of battle! This conundrum is all due to your new innate aberration nature, which also provides a new savage lust for blood instead of a normal desire for food! It's like Lolth is cursing an ambitious fool by enhancing their foolishness in the exact way that's undesirable to them (like a character flaw that she doesn't like is undesirable to her, yet they chose to retain and thus fail the test that thus made'em drider!)! They aren't even akin to vampires, who still have their humanoid form, and thus capable of experiencing many (but not all) human/demihuman simple pleasures!
And that's juss speaking in a nutshell! I'm sure you and others here can come up w/lotta things too!
So that's why I don't agree w/a drider being anything other than a curse, y'know? But I guess the situation can be made better by having a positive attitude, of course. After all, it appears Lolth herself takes the longview of things, as opposed to rash action.
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Alystra I haven't read those specific Drizzt books (but I know the gist of the story), but it looks like to me that the matron mother was lying about her power, unless there's evidence of her actually turning someone into a drider of her own volition outside of Lolth's direct and specific intervention. Gotta remember that people lie (and elite novel writers like R.A. thoroughly enjoy making you think about *why* someone is saying something!), in order to manipulate, dominate, and overcome! Or perhaps even to 'show' Lolth that they themselves don't want to become driders (by threatening it as a curse to their subjects, I mean), if they are priestesses' of some power, and thus under evaluation of whether or not to be subjected to the 'special' test!
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 08:47:13
Funny you should mention him- I'm playing him right now over on the Inn forums in a pbp RP there- under the alias Liante!! (Spider in elvish, lol! Oops, hope Abenabin doesn't read this- he's running the game, and so far none of them have a clue who my PC actually is, >:D ) I actually have been playing him in my homebrew world for about a year now, as well, as a monk/wizard Enlightened Fist PrC. Works very well, with bracers of webs, spider-climb boots, and using buff spell. I had him down as LG, however.
I guess the main reason I feel they should be capable of offspring is BECAUSE they keep all of their other abilities. It just seems like if Lolth really wanted to curse them, she would take away any ability that could allow them to reverse it. As you noted, priests retain their divine powers and spells, which leads me to think it MIGHT not be such a "curse" after all! (There has been speculation and discussion elsewhere that perhaps driders are actually blessed in a perverse way. There was even an adventure hook on WotC I think, that introduced this idea.) The common assumption by most drow that it is a curse could be nothing more than misleading propaganda by the priestesses. Or, equally likely, it may have nothing to do with Lolth at all, since the one time it was mentioned in the novels (well, twice, actually) was in the Drizzt books, when his mother Malice threatened to use it on him. No where did it say that it was actually Lolth's will to do this, or that she had anything to do with it beyond allowing her clerics to have this power, to enforce THEIR will. Who is to say she did not intend it as a blessing for those she particularly favored to gain more power, but the priestesses twisted it to their own purposes? It opens up some interesting ideas for why she would want driders around in the first place!!
It was used in a short story about Drizzt's early years where Zaknafein almost fell pray to this curse, and in that tale it was treated almost like a sort of assembly-line of "punishing" unruly males to keep the rest in line. I could not help but notice in that story that the driders were nearly uncontrollable after the transformation. WHY would Lolth want her priests to "curse" someone by making them STRONGER?! It makes no sense from that perspective. It's more likely she gave them the power to bestow as a gift to favored followers (making them "closer to Her") and they spun it to be a curse to frighten their subjects. That would certainly suit her perverse sense of humor and love of chaos!! |
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