| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Miraculixx |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 15:12:46
Hello, fellow scribes,
i have a question i so far was unable to learn the answer to.
Like this, i quote this from:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Corellon_Larethian
"Gruumsh One-Eye became Corellon's greatest enemy after Corellon plucked out the orc-god's eye in ancient times"
and another from:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mask
"During the Time of Troubles Mask took shape of a powerful blade called Godsbane. He would eventually come to be wielded by the then-mortal Cyric; he acquired the sword by murdering a halfling named Sneakabout, who in turn killed the former wielder of the sword. In the years following the Time of Troubles, Mask released the powerful hound Kezef to try and kill Cyric, but the hound turned instead on the Lord of Shadows, not stopping the chase until it had bitten off one of the god's limbs."
and another one:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kezef
"When Kezef discovered he was truly fettered, he bit off Tyr's hand[1] and feasted on its divine essence for centuries as he strove to free himself."
Now my question, to the above posted.
So far as i understand, the gods (in forgotten realms) are (inhuman with Mask, in the case with Corellian inelf, and with Gruumsh inorc) beeings.
They are gods, they command Magic even Elminster could dream of, shouldn't it be then, that they are able to heal themselves? A simple restoration spell should grow the missing limb back. Or is it as i fear, that with the missing body part/parts, a part of their divine essence is gone (perhaps cast into the astral plane, just guessing)?
Or is it a paradox like:
Is almighty God able to lift a rock, which is so heavy, that God cant lift it?
I hope you see my dilemma with this question, and i hope i habe spelled it in correct english.
Greetings Miraculixx
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:43:08
I've seen that, and loved it. Thought it was hilarious that a live action movie from thirty years ago was a better loony toon movie than the last couple of live action loony toon movies. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:36:06
CoA, if you like rooting for the underdog, I have the perfect movie for you- a (VERY) early Arnold "Governator" flick called The Villain. It's hilarious!! And will totally make you re-think the idea of heroes always winning.... As a bonus, there is a very smart(ass) horse named Whiskey who is the titular bad guy's mount. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:18:21
Well, as I said earlier there is an official version of the myth - not an orcish version, just a real possibility - that Corellon only managed to beat Gruumsh because one of the other elven gods caused a distraction, which was discribed as a cataclysmic storm.
I've always scoffed at the notion of Gruumsh as simply a god of brute strength. I think of him as a very skilled warrior; undisciplined, yes. But wild, savaged, and unpredictable, as well as cunning. Not unintelligent, but more prone to action over thought.
This probably just comes from my love of the underdog, which after so many years means I root for the villains because it is a foregone conclusion all too often that the heroes will win. I also think that strength has gotten shafted so often in the strength vs speed and strength vs skill(when it is mutually exclusive to neither) that a big, strong guy is in every real sense, the underdog in a fight against a small, fast guy in this day in age.
Plus, I just plain do not like elves. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 14:14:24
The day I was introduced to the AD&D (and RPGs) I spent hours reading the (1E pre-Realms) rulebooks and making my very first character: a gritty LG half-elven ranger decked out with an Aragon-of-Aragorn-sounding name, longbow, longsword, a "secret" dagger in each boot, and a big chiseled chinload of lofty heroic virtues. (Ick, talk about stereotyped teenaged unsophistication.)
DM: So who's your god?
Me: Huh? I have to have a god?
DM: Yeah. Pick one. <hands over a book I haven't yet seen, Deities & Demigods>
Me: Wow. Um, that's a lot of gods. Do I have to read the whole thing? Which god is the best?
DM: You're a ranger. Pick a god of rangers.
Me: Will my god make me a better ranger?
DM: No.
Me: Will my god reward me for being a good ranger?
DM: Not really.
Me: Will my god give me anything at all?
DM: You're not a cleric, so your god doesn't really do anything. Except punish you with divine wrath for any transgressions of the faith.
Me: My god won't do anything except zorch me when I'm bad?
DM: Yeah, pretty much. But only when you're really bad. Or when you fail to fight against all your god's enemies.
<pause>
Me: So who's the god of stuff like gentleness, forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 09:55:14
Hmm, gee- I wonder WHY? Gruumsh may be stronger, but brute strength is not as good as intelligence and skill, which may be the whole point of the Corellon/Gruumsh story. Remember, the gods are not only Powers, but they are also parables to teach lessons to their followers. Energy and wisdom made real. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 19:18:26
Eh. I'm horribly bais as pro orc and anti elf. In my homebrew setting, Gruumsh did lose his eye to Corellon. He then ripped Corellon's arm of and beat him with it before the other elven gods managed to drive him away. Its the elves who deny that myth up and down. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 15:00:17
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Because there is always the possibility that he really was born with one eye?
Edit: Alternatively, it is part of orcish culture that they wear their battle scars both from victory and defeat with pride. Its possible Gruumsh wears the missing eye to remind Corellon "You have taken from me. One day, I will take from you." If gods slept, that would probably keep him up nights.
It's part of the mythology that Gruumsh lost his eye to Corellon.
And Corellon already took the eye -- I doubt he'd be all that worried about Gruumsh coming back for more. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:51:05
An ascended orc-cyclops halfbreed? Ick.
I suppose you're essentially correct, CoA ... gods are "born" symbolically (from the minds of their believers) pretty much fully formed, unagingly perceived as being set at some (usually adult or elderly) age, already bearing scars and injuries and deformities. Explanations are usually given for their parentage or origins, but not always, and usually not in any way that would physically make sense.
D&D does offer a bit of a twist on the Chicken-and-egg question. What came first: orcs to worship Gruumsh into existence, or Gruumsh to fashion orcs into the worlds? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:36:32
Because there is always the possibility that he really was born with one eye?
Edit: Alternatively, it is part of orcish culture that they wear their battle scars both from victory and defeat with pride. Its possible Gruumsh wears the missing eye to remind Corellon "You have taken from me. One day, I will take from you." If gods slept, that would probably keep him up nights. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 14:16:09
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
I agree, Wooly; there are certainly NO examples of RL religions where an all-powerful individual sacrifices himself for the betterment of his followers. That sort of thing would never gain any kind of popularity in any world, right?
Again, as I see it, the Powers in qestion leave the handicaps in place in order to engender in their followers a sense that even the god they worship has had setbacks and persevered, and that his chosen people should do the same. Of course they *could* heal the wounds/damage, but to do so would cost them a great story, and great stories= more petitioners.
Who said anything about sacrificing themselves?
If a god is all about projecting strength, like Gruumsh is, then why should he willingly project the fact that he was defeated? How does it engender any kind of faith to say "be tough, like me, the guy who got beat up by an elf"? If he wanted to show an ability to persevere and endure, then he should heal the eye, to show that no elf could cause lasting damage. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 11:02:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
Let's not dismiss, either, that the image of a "dismembered deity" could simply be an illusion -- and/or an attempt to lull opposing forces into underestimating just what the deity is actually capable of doing.
I'd agree with that sentiment, Sage, but we're talking about gods here, not goblins- they might fall to subterfuge that plays into their preconceived notions, but I can't see any Power falling for something as blatant as that. Not when they can ALL do the same sort of thing. Shar (who takes no less than 4 different forms when appearing to *her own followers*) is unlikely to think that Illmater is somehow diminished by his torture-wracked form, or that Gruumsh is less perceptive b/c he's down an eye. The Powers (I would think) have a healthy amount of respect for other powers, regardless of the form they take. Shiallia might *look* like an easy mark, but even a Greater Power might fear to test her on her home turf... I could be wrong, but I have to assume that if a Power is notably handicapped, that it is by choice. And the only reason for them to do that is to gain worshipers or to incite greater devotion in existing worshipers.
All societies are governed by the Law of the Minimum; that is to say that a given society makes its rules based on the resource which is present in the least amount. In the case of Realmsian Powers that resource is faith, and I assume (unless another motive is given) that virtually everything that they do is to gain faith/veneration. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 10:46:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
I agree, Wooly; there are certainly NO examples of RL religions where an all-powerful individual sacrifices himself for the betterment of his followers. That sort of thing would never gain any kind of popularity in any world, right?
Again, as I see it, the Powers in qestion leave the handicaps in place in order to engender in their followers a sense that even the god they worship has had setbacks and persevered, and that his chosen people should do the same. Of course they *could* heal the wounds/damage, but to do so would cost them a great story, and great stories= more petitioners.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 05:17:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye.
Let's not dismiss, either, that the image of a "dismembered deity" could simply be an illusion -- and/or an attempt to lull opposing forces into underestimating just what the deity is actually capable of doing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:59:08
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I've never taken that view, myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder why a deity didn't simply heal himself and be done with it. Which is part of why I've come to the comclusion that those kinds of wounds represent a loss of status... The way I see if, if Gruumsh ever defeated Corellon, he'd get that status back and with it, his other eye. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 04:17:09
Well, yea, it was for core Bahamut. Still, the sentiment is one I think translates rather well. People don't really think the gods are [insert race here] but bigger, its just the image they attach to them to avoid thinking of their gods as floating masses of astral energy. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 22:36:25
Was the Bahamut article for the Realms Bahamut? I thought it was about the "core" deity. |
| Therise |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 22:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm assuming you're talking about the dragonborn? No, that doesn't happen anymore. In 4e they're just a standard race with draconic features.
I know of the new dragonborn, of Abeir. But it sounds like Bahamut no longer changes his faithful into dragonborn (the original Realms kind) as he had done for hundreds of years, perhaps longer.
Do they explain the change in Bahamut's faith, or why this isn't done any longer? It'd be really odd if there's no mention of it.
|
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:56:42
I'm assuming you're talking about the dragonborn? No, that doesn't happen anymore. In 4e they're just a standard race with draconic features. |
| Therise |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:53:43
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There's another bit relavent to the op; in the deities and demigods article regarding 4e core Bahamut, it's mentioned that most of his human(oid) followers don't actually believe he's a dragon anymore than Moradin is a dwarf; its a symbol. People assign myth's about Gruumsh One-Eye because the image of a single eye always watching you invokes fear. They believe Tyr is a one handed god because the image of someone who has lost limbs in the pursuit of justice makes him seem more relatable.
So... for hundreds if not thousands of years, Bahamut's most trusted faithful were transformed into humanoid draconics (no matter their original race). Is this now no longer the case in 4E?
And why would Bahamut have done this to his followers, if not to match their god's draconic essence?
|
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 21:50:59
There's another bit relavent to the op; in the deities and demigods article regarding 4e core Bahamut, it's mentioned that most of his human(oid) followers don't actually believe he's a dragon anymore than Moradin is a dwarf; its a symbol. People assign myth's about Gruumsh One-Eye because the image of a single eye always watching you invokes fear. They believe Tyr is a one handed god because the image of someone who has lost limbs in the pursuit of justice makes him seem more relatable. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 20:35:36
Oh, and to bring it back to the OP, it's always been my thought that various 'maimed' Powers allow their 'handicaps' to remain because it brings them closer to their mortal followers; it shows that they, too can suffer setbacks and persevere. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 19:49:56
Not to *totally* derail the thread, but if you read Tolkien's personal letters on the subject, you can see that his conception of the Elves and Goblins/Orks was really kind of allegorical in nature (this, despite the fact that he detested allegory). He saw Elves as the embodiment of what he called the 'sub-creative impulse'; the desire of those who know themselves to be created beings to mimic the act of their creation. Since Elves were very close to the original act of Creation, they had a perfect understanding of the sub-creative, and this is why items of elvish make were 'magical', when in truth the Elves used no magic at all (you'll recall Galadriel admonishing Sam of this when he said he wanted to see 'Elvish Magic'). Orcs, on the other hand, were really the inverse of the Elves; being ripped from their connection with Creation and the Creator and having a twisted false creator take his place, they turned their energies to destruction and mauling anything fair and good. And again, while Tolkien(in his own words) despised allegory, he loved allegorical language and realized that you can't write a mythos without it; both the Elves and the Orcs were present to act as foils to humanity.
As this pertains to FR, I'm using a version of MT's Fey Cosmogeny, influenced by Tolkien's Elven mythos: In any case, some El'Ves left Tintageer fairly early on, deciding that they didn't want to be under Titania's curse, and that if they forsook Cor and Gru they could escape it; these became the forebears of the Green elves in Faerun today. The Elves who stayed either interbred with or were 'enlightened by' their El'Adrin overlords and became known as El'Dar; these are the ancestors of today's Gold and Silver Elves. If you go with all of that, it makes sense to think of High Magic as that 'Sub-Creative Perfection' of the early High Elves (or Eldar or Eladrin, or whatever you want them to be in your game). |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 19:34:34
Oddly enough the current (again, core) backstory seems to imply that Araushnee's betrayal was caused by her having an infatuation with Gruumsh(girls like bad boys), whom she is said to have "dallied with" before he and Corellon finally threw down. Then again, the article also states that Gruumsh has never seriously hurt Corellon, implying that corrupting Lolth was the major wound he inflicted, to match his loss of an eye, where as a later article in Dragon mentioned that Corellon only managed to beat Gruumsh by the third fey deity who's name I can't remember creating a distraction at the critical moment, contradicting certain aspects of the previous article.
Of course, 4e is very, very big on making contradictory backstories for the deities. Its all murky myth and the truth is never certain. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 18:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves.
I rather like the myth that Corellon and Gruumsh were fellow members of Faerie, whose conflict began as jealousy over chaos-loving Araushnee (Lolth), who purposefully used her charms to set them against one another. Gruumsh lost the battle and was cast out of Faerie to become what he is today. Corellon "won" the conflict, only to face her eventual betrayal--in that case, he had the wisdom to recognize, finally, that she meant him ill, so he cast her out.
I find this myth particularly interesting in that it leads you to think about what might have come to pass had it gone the other way, and Gruumsh had won. Would he and Lolth be allies now, or would she have devoured him like a black widow and increased her power substantially?
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Tolkien's extensive writings included several different versions of orc genesis, of which only one is mentioned in the LotR books. I would personally consider The Silmarillion a better source for this particular information. Of course, Tolkien's books are riddled with inconsistent, contradictory, erroneous, mismatched, and unfinished passages, although many of these have been amended over the years.
Fun thing to consider: as I understand it, the cross-over with elves and orcs in Tolkien's work seems to come from their mention in Beowulf, in which no clear distinction is made. No one really knows what an "elf" or an "orc" is--they're both listed as monsters, and in such a way they might be more or less the same thing. This, I think, is why Tolkien did what he did, making orcs and elves closely related.
Cheers |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 17:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage.
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves.
It ties into the creation myth in which both orcs and elves were born from the blood spilt of their respective deities during that first titanic clash between them. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 16:16:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I REALLY need to finish The Tablets of Fate piece.
In that, I have it where the two (half) brothers - Cor'Ellon & Gru-Mass - rebelled against their mother Titiana and lead their own people - the Aelves - to a far-off corner of the Feywild called Faerie where they built a city of their own on an island off the coast (Tintageer).
The reason for the 'sundering' with their Fey (Le'Shay) forbears was the nature of the Unseelie-Fey, whom Gru-Mass (literally, 'Wild Spirit') was kin to (through his father). Fey tended to take shapes - and all true fey can change shape at will - that reflect their nature. The Unseelie preferred to take the visages of monstrous creatures, both hideous and malformed, while the Seelie tended to take forms that were both majestic and aesthetically pleasing.
Titiana had felt the Unseelie Fey were too 'feral' with their bestial shapes, and were prone to trickery and malicious behavior. Not wishing to be forced into acting against their nature, the Unseelie chose to leave Titania's domain, and Gru-Mass lead them away. Cor'Ellon, whom loved his brother very much (back then), took his brother's side against his mother and went with his brother, leading his own people from Titania's Court as well.
Many centuries past, and the two brothers became worshiped by their people (causing their ascendancy), but the rift between the Unseelie, who's behavior grew even worse without Titania's guiding hand, and the peaceful, beautiful followers of Corellon grew ever greater. The final act that forced the friction into open conflict was the betrayal of Araushnee - cousin to both brothers (daughter of the Raven Queen) and paramour to Corellon. He caught her in the arms of his brother, and the two fought, and Corellon managed to destroy Gruumsh's eye in the battle, forcing him to flee.
Afterward, Corellon realized Araushnee had manipulated them both, but it was too late, and Gruumsh fled Tintageer and went into the mountains to dwell with his kinfolk, the Unseelie fey. Forevermore would the Humanoids (Unseelie) feel nothing but hatred for the Eladrin (Seelie), whom denied them their right to dwell in Tintageer and know the trappings of civilization, while their leader - their god - was maimed by 'the betrayer' (their own way of seeing things, mind you).
Time past, and the stories became twisted remnants of the truth, and the two groups split again, and yet again, for such was the decree of Titania from the beginning - "Let all those who seek division among The people forever know the heartbreak of divisiveness".
And so it was, and so it yet will be, until the Elves return home to Titania's Court.
Anyway, thats the highly-abbreviated version of the tale. I covered the Lolth stuff and the Elves/High Elves (Eladrin) separation as well (which needs to be slightly modified now to take into account the entries in the GHotR).
Wow, is there any chance we'll ever see The Tablets of Fate in their entirety? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 16:10:58
Tolkien's extensive writings included several different versions of orc genesis, of which only one is mentioned in the LotR books. I would personally consider The Silmarillion a better source for this particular information. Of course, Tolkien's books are riddled with inconsistent, contradictory, erroneous, mismatched, and unfinished passages, although many of these have been amended over the years. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:41:34
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage.
Dismembered deities show people that you can overcome great hurdles despite your handicap.
I can see Corellon and Gruumsh as brothers. A spin from Lord of the Rings about Orcs being tainted elves. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:37:22
Firstly, Corellon plucking out Gruumsh's eye is elven slander, propaganda, and blasphemy. Praise be to He-Who-Watches.
Secondly, Odin lost an eye. Tyr(the Norse one) lost a hand. Hephesteus, who's name I probably mispelt, was a cripple. In mythology, gods have often been "humans, but bigger", and capable of sustaining lasting injury.
Another thing regarding Corellon and Gruumsh specificlly; 4e has really hyped up their antagonistic relationship to the point of making them arch enemies. There's even a suggestion(mostly in core but easily translatable to the realms), that they're "brothers" in that they were spawned from the same primordial event to be "dark reflections" of one another, Corellon being refined and civilised, Gruumsh being brutish and savage. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:32:12
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You know, there was a line in LotR (Fellowship of the Ring) that the orcs were created from elves who followed Saruman (or Gruumsh) and were corrupted.
To be presice the myth is that the orcs where once elves tortured and corrupted by Melkor. Saruman just mentions it. |
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