| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 07:57:57
Stephen King once said, “I don't reread books because life is too short.” Same here. But like him, I have few exceptions. And one of them is this trilogy. After rereading the 3 books, I can't help but think of the several possible angles that should have revealed more interesting events that ultimately led to the empire's fall. While Sunbright has redeeming qualities, I still think he's but a cockroach meddling with dinosaurs. Why choose an outsider – and insignificant one, for that matter – when the story could have been best rendered by focusing on one or two Netherese archwizards all throughout the trilogy? Below are the possible characters that – for ME – should have been chosen to stand on the limelight, and their possible exploits (just my OWN idea).
1.Karsus and Larloch. We get to see Karsus in his teenage years. His father is already at the top of the arhwizards' hierarchy, but his contributions are scant, and all his efforts to determine and put a stop to the phaerimm's lifedrain prove futile. He worries not because he spends much of his time teaching his son arcane magic, and inculcating in him that one day, where he fails, his son will succeed.
Karus falls in love with a beautiful and alluring wizard from Selunarra, Nayrha. But the young Nayrha finds his ways too strange, and sometimes too violent. So in the end she leaves him for another boy, whom Karsus kills without (or with a tiny bit of) regret. Finding romantic love an “unworthy pursuit,” he focuses more on his arcane studies.
Karsus grows into a fickle-minded archmage, though one who “cares.” Despite his strange ways in dealing with things and people, deep inside, he has love for his empire, the same love that keeps him awake everyday to experiment and find a counterspell to that malevolent spell that causes famine in the entire empire.
Karsus's bizarre experiments attract the attention of Larloch. The lich thinks that some such experiments inadvertently undermine his own. At that time he is not yet powerful enough to overtly oppose Karsus, so he leaves the supreme archwizard alone and conducts his own experiments in his pocket dimension, where he meets the phaerimm who cast the lifedrain. The ancient creatures work together and enthrall Larloch with as much subtlety as they can manage so the lich will never know. They send him back to the Prime to bring chaos to the empire. Unbeknownst to the spell-hurling creatures, the lich is impervious to their enchantment, thanks to his Red Diadem of Protection, an elven artifact made of ruby, silver, and some unknown solidified matter . But he plays along. He does what they think.... He encourages his fellow archwizards to engage in “Dangerous Games” to veer their attention from the growing famine and never mind that it's making the populace hate them even more. Being mind-linked to the phaerimm, he learns some of their secrets: their hideout, a few of their most potent spells, and that they cast the lifedrain on the entire expanse of land below the empire (but not what constitute such intricate spell nor how to undo it). Still through his diadem, which blocks most of his thoughts from the sly phaerimm, he far-speaks with Karsus , Ioulaum, Lady Polaris, and some other archwizards, and informs them what he learns.
Karsus casts on himself and on his peers his most powerful shield against divination. In months they plot on how to best eradicate the phaerimm and the lifedrain. They manage to kill more than half of the ancient creatures in their own lairs, at the cost of one archwizard's life. But the lifedrain does not wane. Karsus finds out that such draining spell, after cast, becomes totally independent from the magic of the caster, and draws magic merely and directly from the Weave. And the only way to eliminate it is to control the very source of magic itself. Thus, he divines the past and the future in search of a magical artifact that will help him boost his strength, become powerful enough to usurp Mystryl's place, and save the Netheril Empire from its impending doom.
Larloch, on the other hand, sees what will soon become known as Karsus's Folly, and finds other means to save the empire from the lifedrain. Failing that, he simply secures his enclaves for the catastrophic future, and vows vengeance on the meddling magical creatures. He sends his minions to contact and bring his allies – a hundred certain human wizards and elves. He tells the assembly of the phaerimm's plans, and asks them if they are brave enough to sacrifice their lives, their forms at least, for the safety of the world. With their consent, Larloch painstakingly casts the spell that transforms his allies to what are now known as the “sharn.” With their altered nature, their magical strength is considerably heightened. Together, they foil the phaerimm's schemes, fight them for years, and soon imprison the evil creatures in the Sharn Wall.
2.Telamont Tanthul and Larloch. Not the nearly invincible Most High who is made purely of shadowstuff, but the younger, vulpine, still human version of him.
Telamont is personally taught by Karsus. Although curious and eager to be more powerful, Karsus realizes that he cannot hope to be adept in wielding both Weave and Shadow Weave magic at the same time. So he leaves the pursuit to experiment with the latter to his apprentice. Telamont gladly accepts his responsibility.
For years Telamont grows skilled at shadow magic. Soon he takes 5 apprentices, who in time take 20, and so on...
Having learned so much about shadow magic, and having become an archwizard himself, Telamont puts his might to practical use: he casts his most powerful shadow-based spells against the lifedrain. To his horror, the clash only results to several rifts that open the Prime Material Plane to the Abyss and the Nine Hells. Demons, devils, and even archdevils, and all sorts of vile creatures from both planes come flooding to the rifts and wreck havoc in the empire.
Before this catastrophe, Karsus shifts himself to the past. By being in the past, his “searching” spell, the one he uses to locate the artifact (he still does not know it is a star), is at its strongest, because it is the time when the thing it searches exists.
Hence, the empire has to suppress the siege WITHOUT their most potent weapon: the almighty Karsus. The archwizards fight their hardest. Larloch loses almost half of his lackeys, two floating castles, and the irreplaceable treasures that come tumbling down with them. Furious, he casts his own version of lifedrain: one that drains all the life from LESSER creatures of the Nine Hells and the Abyss. But soon he finds himself face to face with three archdevils, who are immune to his draining spell and who enervate him enough to disturb the flow of his lifedrain. Telamont comes to his rescue and binds the three archfiends for only a minute or two. Such precious little time he uses to whisk himself and Larloch away. It is common knowledge to all Netherese that Larloch possesses the greatest number of magical artifacts in the empire. Knowing that Larloch owes him much, Telamont tells him of his plan to rid their empire of the new menace...
Telamont, together with his apprentices, will cast The Dark Veil (the prototype of the Shadow Shell). It is an encompassing curtain made of shadowstuff that suppresses all magical energies and life essence of the ones that the casters specifically choose. In this case, ALL the malefic creatures from the other planes. But such powerful spell draws magic both from the Shadow Weave and from stored shadow magic of the casters. Telamont estimates that his and his apprentices' stored magic is not sufficient to raise the veil, so he asks Larloch to give him all his artifacts that have stored shadow magic. The lich does as asked, knowing what is at stake, and owing the shadow archmage his bony arse.
Through his careful and precise calculation, Telamont discovers that the artifacts' magic is still not enough. Lacking any better options, he pays Tanathras a visit, slays its ruling archwizard (one he despises), and skillfully alters the nature of its mythallar so it will not draw magic from the Weave, but feed on the Shadow Weave instead. Upon the actual casting of The Dark Veil, he drains that mythallar of all magic, which leads to Tanathras's fall.
With all their magic quelled by The Dark Veil, the denizens from the Hells and the Abyss are easily slain by the Netherese.
When Karsus comes back from the past carrying his “star,” Telamont divines what his former mentor truly intends to do with it. And so he learns of Karsu's ultimate plan and of the empire's fall as a result. He knows Karsus is so determined, and so will never listen to him even if he exerts an effort to talk him out of it. Besides, he himself does not know what else could save the already dying empire. The lifedrain remains and never ebbs, and more people are dying. He no longer trusts himself for the job of combating the said spell; he can't risk another rift-disaster.
Instead, he plans for the future... Since the present empire cannot be saved, he will teleport his city and his people to the Demiplane of Shadow, where they can survive, prepare, and someday reclaim what is rightfully theirs.
* * * *
I think that an expanded edition of the trilogy should be made and released. Raymond E. Feist was able to publish, after 10 years of its original publication, an expanded, or as he put it, “Author's Preferred Edition” of Magician, Book One of the Riftwar Saga. Many years have passed since “Mortal Consequences,” and we haven't even seen an omnibus of The Netheril Trilogy. So why not an expanded edition? By this, I DON'T mean that Clayton, or whomever Wizards chooses to do the job, should give Sunbright, Greenwillow, or Knucklebones more focus. (I've had more than enough of them, thank you very much). The end result will still be the same: the fall of the empire. What'll be different are the characters to be given focus. With this, we'll know what's really happening in the individual enclaves, and not just the obvious decadence and the glaring display of might; for surely some still have worthy, good endeavors, like Selunarra. And of course, we'll see more of the prominent characters who were immortalized not just by potent magic, but primarily by their unforgettable deeds.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 05:16:54
Fair enough. It's just that the effects of the Fall were so catastrophic. But you're right, 'twas not really the center of the story. Another reason the entire trilogy should have been expanded, or rewritten. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 14:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I read in some forums that WotC is going to release omnibus for ALL RSEs, including The Netheril Trilogy. Is this true? I checked in WotC's site, there's no news whatsoever concerning this...
I'd not consider the Netheril trilogy an RSE... Yes, one of the biggest RSEs ever did happen during that trilogy, but it was ancient history for the modern Realms, and the Fall wasn't really a focal point of the trilogy. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 06:16:31
I read in some forums that WotC is going to release omnibus for ALL RSEs, including The Netheril Trilogy. Is this true? I checked in WotC's site, there's no news whatsoever concerning this... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 05:10:39
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I didn't know there was a book four on the Netheril Trilogy?
It's a trilogy, not a quartet.  Oh, well, any of the 3 published books can be expanded in a two 2-part story published separately but considered as one book, much like how Feist's first novel of the Riftwar trilogy.
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
As to the others having a problem about Sunbright being the main limelight in the story, take note that the Netheril Trilogy not only talks about the legend of Netheril but also other communities in the Realms. The Blood Ravens for example.
It's not a problem that other communities in the Realms are given attention. The problem is this trilogy is supposed to be largely “about” Netheril; we should have seen more Netheril lore; the series should have lived to its title. A friend of mine once told me that the apt title of this trilogy is “The Legend of a (Ridiculously) Blond Shaman.”
I don't dislike the entire trilogy, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to reread it. But as my point in my original post, and let me quote myself:
quote:
“Why choose an outsider – and insignificant one, for that matter – when the story could have been best rendered by focusing on one or two Netherese archwizards all throughout the trilogy?”
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
As for me: The best book in the trilogy was the first one.
I find it rather dragging; and nearly everything that occurred in that book discouraged me to read the next two books. Had I no idea as to the significant events in book 2, I wouldn't have read it and the last one. So needless to say, the second book is my favorite. From it we've learned perhaps the greatest lesson of ambitious, mortal men. And in comparison to the other 2, it at least provided more focus on the empire and more of its people.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 04:29:34
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, it seems like you are looking for an idiotic argument, so I will stay away.
 Ironically, this very type of statement is what precipitates a true id***** argument....But Wooly is correct; we've wandered quite far from the main topic... |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 17:03:41
I didn't know there was a book four on the Netheril Trilogy?
EDIT: Oh, haha, it hasn't been done yet....As to the others having a problem about Sunbright being the main limelight in the story, take note that the Netheril Trilogy not only talks about the legend of Netheril but also other communities in the Realms. The Blood Ravens for example.
As for me: The best book in the trilogy was the first one. The pace of the book was a bit fast, but there was just so much good substance in every chapter that made you admire the realms more and more (as a newbie in the Realms setting(Just to let you know Netheril Trilogy wasn't my first book, it was the Crystal Shard))...it was like a grand tour of the major entities in the Realms...which if you read as a first timer on Realms Novels would actually like.
For me the vast appearance of many different Realms races and monsters on book 1 totally beats "The first book of Icewind Dale Trilogy(The Crystal Shard)"
Plus there are also some awkward moments in Book 1 that I find very unusual in the Realms. I remember reading a scene in it where Sunbright (a human), his elf companion, the dwarf and a platoon of orcs had tea together...that one made me lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 14:46:38
...And I think we've wandered from the main topic, now... |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 12:39:18
Ed is the creator of the realms as well as it's biggest fan. The two things are not mutually exclusive and he is both at once.
I've oft heard how Ed delights in seeing what others(by which I mean your average , everyday gamer as well as other writers) are doing with the realms, how they are making a part of it their own. Because it is a loving, changing, fluid thing and not a rigid set of rules. I thinkmthat where most issues for people may stem. Since it became a gaming world, there I'd a need for such structure and rules, but the inherent freedom, flexibility and live Ed created it with almost refuses to be chained and therefore strains pulls at certain rules , busti g out in places , while certain parts play nice with rules and such. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 12:26:14
Ed's method of presenting most lore was in the format of 'unreliable narrator', so that folks can tweak the hell out of their games without violating canon.
The 'modern' method of presenting lore - since 3e - is more restrictive to the DM and not nearly as useful for running a campaign, when one is trying to keep their FR as close to possible as the canon one.
Yes, Ed does describe certain things to us down to the tiniest detail, buuuut... he leaves the motives and end-results up to the individual DM in almost every case (except in novels, where he normally would have to cover such points). In 1e/2e sources, in many cases, we aren't even sure exactly who certain folks are really working for!
So yeah, we know that Peltarm Rivenspells, currently residing in Sultim, has a handlebar moustache, is balding, has a wart on his left shoulder, has an annoying twitch and a paunch, and has an unsavory appetite both for necromantic magics and young maidens.
But who he works for and what his ultimate goals are are left-out, and he may not even be from Sembia, and he may not even really be who we think he is - it could just be a cover for a Harper or Zhent agent.
This is always the best approach to present lore in an RPG setting. The character and description are setting-canon, but what we do with him is up to us. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 08:18:20
You know, it seems like you are looking for an idiotic argument, so I will stay away. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 06:16:23
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
@Jorkens. Let me add something to what Tyrant mentioned. I am not belittling those who play the games (I for one used to play games that have book-counterparts, thought not D&D). But consider this: what for will be the so-called FR lore, what the WotC team and most specially Ed created if everything will boil down to one thing: possibilities created by your home-brewed Forgotten Realms? If anything that Ed says can be countered by someone because that someone does not do it in his/her own Realms, then what for is Ed's role?
Eds role has always been to give hints and minor lore that one can develop and adjust to ones own view. That is the point of having a unreliable "in-story" voice like Elminster in the first place, both in literature and in rpg's. It opens for the possibility of the information not being correct.
I hardly call them mere hints and minor. While Ed presents idea from which one can speculate and build possibilities, he does more than that. What Ed (ultimately) does (or is tasked to do) is to establish "what is" in the Realms, as opposed to "what could be." Because if all he writes are mere possibilities that can easily be thrown and contradicted by personal preferences of the gamers, then you might as well call him a FAN, rather than THE creator of the Realms.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 08:39:52
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I was trying to be simplistic in my example so as not to hugely sidetrack. I was aware that there were more levels than I mentioned and rules governing what goes where but I didn't see the point in detailing the entire system to get my point across that other systems have levels of canon and that SW has a system that can be compared (to it's general design, not necessarily the designations of what goes in what level).
My point is simply this. With the Realms the "what ifs" and open possibilities are as much part of the first level (or G-level if I understand correctly) as any fact that has been clearly detailed in a novel. That comes from the Realms having been a tool for rpg's since first published. The speculations themselves does not become canon, but the point of having openness in canon is to speculate on ones own. That's not the same as fanfic.
And I think we both know what the other one really means and neither one of us has a problem with it, so there is no reason for us to nitpick on minor details( which I will admit is a weakness of mine) .The Realms are different for different people and having strong feelings about the same is in my view a positive thing. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 08:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
@Jorkens. Let me add something to what Tyrant mentioned. I am not belittling those who play the games (I for one used to play games that have book-counterparts, thought not D&D). But consider this: what for will be the so-called FR lore, what the WotC team and most specially Ed created if everything will boil down to one thing: possibilities created by your home-brewed Forgotten Realms? If anything that Ed says can be countered by someone because that someone does not do it in his/her own Realms, then what for is Ed's role?
Eds role has always been to give hints and minor lore that one can develop and adjust to ones own view. That is the point of having a unreliable "in-story" voice like Elminster in the first place, both in literature and in rpg's. It opens for the possibility of the information not being correct.
And I know you don't mean it as a belittlement, so no problem there. My point is simply this; the Realms is not a a series of novels that has a rpg made to it it is the other way around.Which makes both the rpg products and the novels equal. With that I mean that something that is mentioned as a possibility in a rpg product is as much canon as something that is spelled out in the novels.
My main objection is to the view that speculations are fanfic, the speculations were the point of the Realms in the first place and the rpg material (with the ideas made for adoptions and speculations) has for most of the Realms publishing history been the first version. As I said, that is not meant as a belittlement of the novels, its just a point about them not being the beginning and end of everything canon.
I have no problem with people just reading novels or just playing without the novels, but to dismiss any speculations as irrelevant (in general, not for one self) fanfic that should be left out of a speculation goes against the whole point of the Realms. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:53:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
My bad. I tend to ramble way too much for my own good, sometimes.
No worriesnold friend, I read something along the lines of...
Star wars......george Lucas...
Bla bla bla...films.....comics bla bla bla  
So it didn't sidetrackmme in the least! |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:42:34
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
My bad. I tend to ramble way too much for my own good, sometimes.
No worries, I can launch into a ramble myself sometimes. You are right in that I did lump everything below C canon together and label it more or less fanfiction. I was trying to be quick but that was inaccurate on my part. And to be honest, I don't care enough about anything below the C level to memorize what goes where and I treat it like fanfiction anyway. On the other hand, I treat C level the same as G level unless there is a direct conflict between the two (and I honestly haven't found very many, mainly things written about the Clone Wars before the prequels came out) because I do enjoy the books and video games so I try to tell myself the story works throughout. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
My bad. I tend to ramble way too much for my own good, sometimes.
That's alright, Sage. You know TOO MUCH about TOO MANY THINGS that sometimes loads of idea pour out easily as if they have a life of their own. That's not a bad thing, usually. I myself fall victim to such habit sometimes.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:35:30
My bad. I tend to ramble way too much for my own good, sometimes. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:32:01
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
It's like Star Wars. There are levels of canon in Star Wars. There's the movies only (G level), the movies plus the EU (forgot the name of the level), and then there's everything else. Most discussions are of the first two with the third being basically fanfiction.
It's actually a somewhat more elaborate system. Lelands Chee of Lucas Licensing broke SW canon down into four levels which determine a given source's place in the canon hierarchy when apparent contradictions occur.
G-Level covers the films, scripts, and anything else which GL himself wrote or created. This trumps all when there is a direct, irreconcilable contradiction.
C-Level is the EU. The books, comics, RPG, CCG, computer games, sourcebooks, et all. Thus, we see that anything C-Level is considered true unless there is a direct irreconcilable contradiction with G-Level canon.
S-Level canon covers older sources like the old Marvel comics and other obscure SW lore which while not contradicting higher level sources, doesn’t quite fit perfectly either.
N-Level is non-canon or Infinities. These are things that are completely outside of continuity or are direct irreconcilable contradictions.
If a piece of information, character [ship, alien, etc], or event appears, or is referenced in a higher level source, it moves up to that new level. If an S-Level character is referenced in a C-Level source, it becomes C-Level, if a character from a C-Level source appears in a G-Level source [such as Aayla Secura appearing in AotC and RotS] that character becomes G-Level. If something is directly and irreconcilably contradicted by a higher level source, that factoid and only that factoid is bumped down to N-Level, but not the whole body of work. So, for example the mention of Owen Lars being Obi-Wan’s brother in the RotJ novelisation is now non-canon because AotC tells us that Owen Lars is Anakin’s stepbrother, and no relation to Obi-Wan, but the rest of novelisation remains C-Level canon.
I was trying to be simplistic in my example so as not to hugely sidetrack. I was aware that there were more levels than I mentioned and rules governing what goes where but I didn't see the point in detailing the entire system to get my point across that other systems have levels of canon and that SW has a system that can be compared (to it's general design, not necessarily the designations of what goes in what level). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:07:07
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
It's like Star Wars. There are levels of canon in Star Wars. There's the movies only (G level), the movies plus the EU (forgot the name of the level), and then there's everything else. Most discussions are of the first two with the third being basically fanfiction.
It's actually a somewhat more elaborate system. Lelands Chee of Lucas Licensing broke SW canon down into four levels which determine a given source's place in the canon hierarchy when apparent contradictions occur.
G-Level covers the films, scripts, and anything else which GL himself wrote or created. This trumps all when there is a direct, irreconcilable contradiction.
C-Level is the EU. The books, comics, RPG, CCG, computer games, sourcebooks, et all. Thus, we see that anything C-Level is considered true unless there is a direct irreconcilable contradiction with G-Level canon.
S-Level canon covers older sources like the old Marvel comics and other obscure SW lore which while not contradicting higher level sources, doesn’t quite fit perfectly either.
N-Level is non-canon or Infinities. These are things that are completely outside of continuity or are direct irreconcilable contradictions.
If a piece of information, character [ship, alien, etc], or event appears, or is referenced in a higher level source, it moves up to that new level. If an S-Level character is referenced in a C-Level source, it becomes C-Level, if a character from a C-Level source appears in a G-Level source [such as Aayla Secura appearing in AotC and RotS] that character becomes G-Level. If something is directly and irreconcilably contradicted by a higher level source, that factoid and only that factoid is bumped down to N-Level, but not the whole body of work. So, for example the mention of Owen Lars being Obi-Wan’s brother in the RotJ novelisation is now non-canon because AotC tells us that Owen Lars is Anakin’s stepbrother, and no relation to Obi-Wan, but the rest of novelisation remains C-Level canon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 03:04:30
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Ah, subtlety in the Realms:
Six foot tall, silver-haired women, naked save for thigh-high leather boots, blasting beholders in flying temples with 'silver fire' coming out of their hands, while off to rescue some chick who shoots 'spellfire' out of *her* hands at 'dragon-liches'...
Oooo, the Intrigue!
Yeah, that's the entirely of what's happened in the Realms, there. 
Exactly, right? Flash and bang tricks like Spellfire are for kids! Emerging writers in the Realms need to get a grip, and recognize that their work is of no value until they've published under the Realms label for 30 years.
Silly poseurs.
You're saying that the new Realms has become nothing but "flash and bang tricks," intended not for adults but for kids? Well, I have to be blunt: you haven't read quite enough FR books to view the Realms that way. And to be further blunt, I ask you: how many 4E novels have you read? Point out to me/us that those books are merely accounts of "flash and bang tricks." Maybe you have read The Haunted Lands trilogy, the entire (or at least one or two of the) Ed presents Waterdeep series, Blackstaff, The Twilight War trilogy, the Erevis Cale trilogy, and The Captive Flame. While there are inevitable "flashes" featured in more than a chapter (which just makes sense since some of the characters involved are high level wizards), they offer more than those. I understand you don't like some aspects of the current Realms, as do I (for one, I fervently wish there'd be another specialized SP or Elves' Plague that will wipe them out from the face of Toril), but to reduce the realms to something so trivial is (for lack of better euphemism) hardly appropriate.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 02:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
As the Realms was intended to be a Rpg setting you might as well then call the novels fanfiction based on the setting. The Realms were created to change and evolve by gaming and by gaming products. Changed much by the users themselves. The novels tie in and people may enjoy them without gaming (which Dennis does and I have no problem with, but a Realms discussions usually includes (unless stated) both the novel and gaming aspect), but it is not a situation where the novels are the "true" Realms and everything else is a personal little diversion on the side with less value. Many of the novels were takes on what was suggested through rpg products and in many cases took up threads that introduced years before, with the author in question giving his view of how it could work. Does this lessen the value of the novel author? Absolutely not, but it is also a fact that a hell of a lot of people has been doing the same "Realmswork" for years.
Let me be clear, I am not trying to say that what happens in your Realms has less value. What I am trying to say is that to anyone not involved in your Realms it may be completely irrelivant because it's in your Realms. What dennis is trying to say and I was trying to clarify is that there is an official version. You can argue that point but I believe you would be wrong. Now, what you do with that is your own business and I see no issue with people doing what they will with it (as you said, that was the intent). However, if someone is talking about anything official, that should pretty clearly not mean anything in a homebrew scenario. I seriously don't see where the major disconnect is here. There's the novels/RPG material, and there's what happens in your home game. The two aren't the same and discussion of one when it's clear the person only has interest in the other is pointless (especially when it's to argue a point that you won't convince him to change his mind on).
It's like Star Wars. There are levels of canon in Star Wars. There's the movies only (G level), the movies plus the EU (forgot the name of the level), and then there's everything else. Most discussions are of the first two with the third being basically fanfiction. Here we have folks trying to say the fanfiction is on the same level as the printed material, and there's no way it is. If it is, most discussion is pointless because anyone can have anything going on and there is no real common binding element (because it could all be changed). It becomes an unending series of "well, in My campaign we do this" and " well in my campaign we don't do that because that country is a crater and that race is the exact opposite of yours" etc, etc. It's fine to show off creativity and have those discussions and I'm sure some of them are interesting (I do find alternate uses of the material interesting, to be clear), but at that point you have strayed very far from the material and are not anywhere near the official level. So, when someone says they are only interested in one level and explain prettty clearly what they mean, it's pointless to go on and on with post after post telling him something else (that he already aknowledges exists) is out there and that it could be different.
Also, to be clear on something, when I say the RPG can be many things I am saying that what you do with it can be many things. I lump the printed material for the RPG in with the novels as far as "official" sources.
Aptly and succinctly put, Tyrant.
@Jorkens. Let me add something to what Tyrant mentioned. I am not belittling those who play the games (I for one used to play games that have book-counterparts, thought not D&D). But consider this: what for will be the so-called FR lore, what the WotC team and most specially Ed created if everything will boil down to one thing: possibilities created by your home-brewed Forgotten Realms? If anything that Ed says can be countered by someone because that someone does not do it in his/her own Realms, then what for is Ed's role?
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 01:12:45
Okay fellow scribes, we've all been working well together lately. Let's try to maintain that trend, eh? |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 00:37:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Ah, subtlety in the Realms:
Six foot tall, silver-haired women, naked save for thigh-high leather boots, blasting beholders in flying temples with 'silver fire' coming out of their hands, while off to rescue some chick who shoots 'spellfire' out of *her* hands at 'dragon-liches'...
Oooo, the Intrigue!
Yeah, that's the entirely of what's happened in the Realms, there.
Exactly, right? Flash and bang tricks like Spellfire are for kids! Emerging writers in the Realms need to get a grip, and recognize that their work is of no value until they've published under the Realms label for 30 years.
Silly poseurs. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 00:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Ah, subtlety in the Realms:
Six foot tall, silver-haired women, naked save for thigh-high leather boots, blasting beholders in flying temples with 'silver fire' coming out of their hands, while off to rescue some chick who shoots 'spellfire' out of *her* hands at 'dragon-liches'...
Oooo, the Intrigue!
Yeah, that's the entirely of what's happened in the Realms, there. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 18:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
As the Realms was intended to be a Rpg setting you might as well then call the novels fanfiction based on the setting. The Realms were created to change and evolve by gaming and by gaming products. Changed much by the users themselves. The novels tie in and people may enjoy them without gaming (which Dennis does and I have no problem with, but a Realms discussions usually includes (unless stated) both the novel and gaming aspect), but it is not a situation where the novels are the "true" Realms and everything else is a personal little diversion on the side with less value. Many of the novels were takes on what was suggested through rpg products and in many cases took up threads that introduced years before, with the author in question giving his view of how it could work. Does this lessen the value of the novel author? Absolutely not, but it is also a fact that a hell of a lot of people has been doing the same "Realmswork" for years.
Let me be clear, I am not trying to say that what happens in your Realms has less value. What I am trying to say is that to anyone not involved in your Realms it may be completely irrelivant because it's in your Realms. What dennis is trying to say and I was trying to clarify is that there is an official version. You can argue that point but I believe you would be wrong. Now, what you do with that is your own business and I see no issue with people doing what they will with it (as you said, that was the intent). However, if someone is talking about anything official, that should pretty clearly not mean anything in a homebrew scenario. I seriously don't see where the major disconnect is here. There's the novels/RPG material, and there's what happens in your home game. The two aren't the same and discussion of one when it's clear the person only has interest in the other is pointless (especially when it's to argue a point that you won't convince him to change his mind on).
It's like Star Wars. There are levels of canon in Star Wars. There's the movies only (G level), the movies plus the EU (forgot the name of the level), and then there's everything else. Most discussions are of the first two with the third being basically fanfiction. Here we have folks trying to say the fanfiction is on the same level as the printed material, and there's no way it is. If it is, most discussion is pointless because anyone can have anything going on and there is no real common binding element (because it could all be changed). It becomes an unending series of "well, in My campaign we do this" and " well in my campaign we don't do that because that country is a crater and that race is the exact opposite of yours" etc, etc. It's fine to show off creativity and have those discussions and I'm sure some of them are interesting (I do find alternate uses of the material interesting, to be clear), but at that point you have strayed very far from the material and are not anywhere near the official level. So, when someone says they are only interested in one level and explain prettty clearly what they mean, it's pointless to go on and on with post after post telling him something else (that he already aknowledges exists) is out there and that it could be different.
Also, to be clear on something, when I say the RPG can be many things I am saying that what you do with it can be many things. I lump the printed material for the RPG in with the novels as far as "official" sources.
And to be clear on another point so no one gets the wrong impression, I am not trying to belittle anyone who changes things for their home game or the changes themselves. It's your game. I'm just trying to say that it's pointless trying to say what happens at home, in your game, has any impact on the official version or is of the same level of importance. If I played, I'm sure I would make changes. When I read fiction I wonder how things would be if certain elements were different and carry those thoughts out quite a ways sometimes. What I don't do is try to say that what I think up is of equal importance to the printed material to anyone but me (that's the important part). I understand it is important to you, but I am not you so there's not much point in bringing it up to rebut a truthful statement. So, if I am misunderstanding the intent here, someone please tell me so. |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 16:26:44
Ah, subtlety in the Realms:
Six foot tall, silver-haired women, naked save for thigh-high leather boots, blasting beholders in flying temples with 'silver fire' coming out of their hands, while off to rescue some chick who shoots 'spellfire' out of *her* hands at 'dragon-liches'...
Oooo, the Intrigue! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 11:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Red Wizards are conspicuous themselves. And no one (or perhaps so few) have problems with that. In fact, I like them for it. There are already the Zhents and their cockroach leader, Manshoon, the Twisted Rune, and Larloch himself in charge of the “clandestine” evil plots spanning the entire Realms. Bringing a conspicuous and immediate threat is a welcome change.
The Realms are based on the premise of "wheels within wheels" and "deeper secrets buried beneath newer ones". The balance Ed achieved is very hard to perceive unless you've read nearly everything about the Realms - it is an intricate dance, wherein the dancers themselves know not what lies at the end of the music.
This is why Lolth thrives in FR, more-so then any other setting. Not only were her favored children created therein, but the entire socio-political landscape is a giant tangled web of alliances & deceit, backstabs & back-room dealings, clan feuds & clandestine organizations. It is a hodge-podge of government agents and free agents, heroes and slavers, Wizards and warrior-kings. It is the Realms... and it is complicated...
The Red Wizards are the exception that proves the rule. For every Zhent agent unmasked, there are a dozen more in any given locale folks don't know about. The same could be said of the Harpers. There is no need for yet-another uber-powerful, conspicuous group of Mages in the Realms - the Thayans are cool because they are so different then the others... and yet they have secret-agents and act covertly a good deal of the time as well.
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
So yeah, I find the hidden bad guys far more useful to me as a DM - groups that have been over-used in novels are nearly worthless to me. I want to surprise my players, no induce boredom. Shadow has been beaten to death - seems you can't even get a novel published anymore if it doesn't have the word in the title. And the Shadowvar aren't the only group guilty of this - I find the Harpers, Zhents, and Red Wizards all equally falling into the 'reheated leftovers' category.
Of all the things you mentioned, at least I found something we both agree on: the highlighted sentence. And how about the rest? Well, I wouldn't want Wooly and Sage to seal this topic; so I'd rather not say wonderful things about your equally wonderful claims.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:53:44
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak). Of course the RPG and the novels have to at least somewhat resemble each other. If you ("you" being anyone who uses a differing version of the Realms in your game) have a different version that's fine, but it isn't the version. The official version is the one he cares about and the rest are basically fan fiction (and there's nothing wrong with that). So, to my mind, once you begin seriously deviating from the "established" ideas what you like is your version and not the idea itself. The Shadovar are what they are. They aren't a scattered, loosely tied group of Netherese. They aren't a group whose Enclave crashed at the end of RotA. They aren't the other ideas proposed for use at home. So, to make them these other things is to change what they are and at that point what you are enjoying is your own creativity and not so much the original idea (and again, there's nothing wrong with that, creativity is a great quality for people to have and it should be celebrated more). As dennis has stated, nothing beyond the novel versions matter to him. I'm in a similar boat in that I don't play the RPG (beyond the video games) so I don't create my own lore and to me the lore is the printed word so that's the only version I really care about. So, solely speaking of the books, there is no "possibility". There is only what is.
Very well said. The 'possibility' being nonexistent is solely on the context of the novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
Let's not try to make the Realms out to be more than it is, or insult the intelligence of people who enjoy what you clearly view as lesser entertainment. The Realms is a fine setting with good-to-great books and massively wasted potential to expand (into other mediums), but high art it is not. It has employed these cheap parlor tricks before and will do so again, in canon.
Good point. We have to remember this: If we don't like something, then we don't. But we shouldn't insinuate that people who prefer what we don't are “like this or that.” I for one have something I really hate in the Realms: the elves. But did I ever say or imply that those who like these silly, haughty creatures are “like this or that”?
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 09:31:07
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak). Of course the RPG and the novels have to at least somewhat resemble each other. If you ("you" being anyone who uses a differing version of the Realms in your game) have a different version that's fine, but it isn't the version. The official version is the one he cares about and the rest are basically fan fiction (and there's nothing wrong with that). So, to my mind, once you begin seriously deviating from the "established" ideas what you like is your version and not the idea itself.
As the Realms was intended to be a Rpg setting you might as well then call the novels fanfiction based on the setting. The Realms were created to change and evolve by gaming and by gaming products. Changed much by the users themselves. The novels tie in and people may enjoy them without gaming (which Dennis does and I have no problem with, but a Realms discussions usually includes (unless stated) both the novel and gaming aspect), but it is not a situation where the novels are the "true" Realms and everything else is a personal little diversion on the side with less value. Many of the novels were takes on what was suggested through rpg products and in many cases took up threads that introduced years before, with the author in question giving his view of how it could work. Does this lessen the value of the novel author? Absolutely not, but it is also a fact that a hell of a lot of people has been doing the same "Realmswork" for years. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 03:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak).
True. However, in terms of what Dennis was deeming as a "non-existent" possibility is slightly incorrect. What is "actual" in terms of Realmslore for the individual, is what you, as either the DM of an RPG campaign set in the Realms, or as a reader of Realms fiction, wish it to be. Ed built this particular dynamic right into the Realms, as the Ol' Grey Box tell us. |
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