| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 06:28:44
I'm currently reading over the Calishite people. I know a lot of the realms stuff is loosly & sometime heavily based on real world. My question is what culture are the Calishites suppose to be? They seem like a blend of Persian & Indian to me. Anyone elses thoughts on this would be appreciated, thanks. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 10:55:40
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I don't disagree. It's just that I feel that there are some elements in there that authors could latch on to to depict Calimshan as "Arabic".
We both agree with each other (why do we always end up in discussions where we actually agree on everything? Well its, a fun conversation so why not.)and I have no problem seeing that the area can be used if one wants to use a Middle Eastern setting, but it is a bit strange that it has been more or less written in stone that it is the canon version when there is so little to base it on.
And by the way, I did some more reading last night and I found another couple of interesting details:
The term Pasha was used already in the Grey Box, but I don't know if its a term Ed used or if it is a detail added by Jeff Grubb.
Now, moving forward to the 2nd ed. box it is made clearer. Most of the information is identical to that said in the grey box, but it is added that Calmishan has many cultural similarities with Zakhara, giving more credence to the idea of a 1001 Nights-like culture.
quote:
It is really hard, more than twenty years on (I'm getting old) to remember how I read the materials originally. But no, I don't think that at the time I got the impression that it was supposed to be the Realms' equivalent of pulp Arabia, even less so after Arabian Adventures and Al-Qadim were published. I've never really given much thought to how I would have run Calimshan, as I have not really run any games there. I'll admit that the 1001 Nights is an easy trap to fall into. Lack of imagination on my part, I suppose, and watching "Lawrence of Arabia" one times too many: hot, desert, swords, genies - one small step. Nowadays, and still assuming that I am too lazy to work out something for myself, I'd probably go with an adaptation of Dorne from A Song of Ice and Fire.
The few details I have added have been more or less the typical Sword& Sorcery "decadent empire", with architecture and elements that can be said to be inspired by North African and Middle Eastern cultures, but I have cut out the genies, clothing and (in my opinion) the names and terms that are to close to Earth. Thats the biggest problem with the Bedine to, desert nomads clothed in heavy robes can be done without necessarily making them feel like Bedouin. Brackett did it, so why not in the Realms?
While we are on the subject; has anybody done anything with Semphar and Murghom? I found the Horde box to be the worst case of transporting cultures into the Realms and adding the Middle East again (how many times does that make?) is even worse. I love Zakhara, but that's the only Earth inspired culture in the Realms I like. Strangely enough it never bothered me much when it was done in the Gazetteers. |
| Katans |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 09:04:07
Calimshan appears as a wild potpourri of anything related to "those bearded, camel-riding guys in the desert". It has Turkish and Arabian influences, as well as some North African aspects. There is no clear connection to a single real-world culture. It's more like a 1001 Nights mostly imaginary setting. |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 07:59:17
"Vizier" was changed to "vizar" in Calimport, and it is the "syl-pasha" who rules Calimshan, not just a "pasha" (who is more akin to a ruler–or real world/Realms "lord"–of a guild). Of course other 'middle eastern' terms like "sultan" (the ruler of a "ward" in Calimport) and the architectural terms like minaret, etc. still help to enforce the 'arabian' feel of the place. YMMV |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 22:48:59
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Ah, I finally have the book in front of me.
Well, the genies are part of a general tie to the plane of Air. The genies are mentioned along with other elemental creatures. The words and terms used are not "Real world". The names used are rather neutral and the cultural references are not tied to any specific earthly culture; there is a Rashid, but also a Duncan and Anders among the Pashas. Viziers has been used all over the place in fantasy history, although the Turkish Pasha seems a bit out of place. There are desert bandits, but no nomads or Bedouin-like tribes are mentioned. To call it Arabic from the information in F3 becomes a bit like calling Cormyr French to me because it has knights, kings and feudal elements. In many ways I think the late 2nd edition version of Calimshan is far more "Middle Eastern" than the old version.
I don't disagree. It's just that I feel that there are some elements in there that authors could latch on to to depict Calimshan as "Arabic".
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I agree that there are a few elements included, but I still find it a bit strange that it has been included in the areas that shows strong "Real World" elements. Compared with the Moonshae's, Anauroch, Hordelands (and neighbours) and Ancient Empires there is not that to base it on in the early published material. The reason that I am mentioning this is that I only recently got my hands on F3, and I was surprised, as I always thought the product to be responsible for the image, but if I had bought it fifteen-twenty years ago, before I knew anything about the region, I don't think it would have brought forth an image of a middle eastern culture to me personally.
I am curious; Thauramath, and those here that have used the Realms since its earliest days, was there always an image of the region as a "Thousand-and-One-Nights" region when you read the gaming products or was that an element that came later (if at all)? I don't mean if you ran it that way, but how the books read to you.
It is really hard, more than twenty years on (I'm getting old) to remember how I read the materials originally. But no, I don't think that at the time I got the impression that it was supposed to be the Realms' equivalent of pulp Arabia, even less so after Arabian Adventures and Al-Qadim were published. I've never really given much thought to how I would have run Calimshan, as I have not really run any games there. I'll admit that the 1001 Nights is an easy trap to fall into. Lack of imagination on my part, I suppose, and watching "Lawrence of Arabia" one times too many: hot, desert, swords, genies - one small step. Nowadays, and still assuming that I am too lazy to work out something for myself, I'd probably go with an adaptation of Dorne from A Song of Ice and Fire. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 19:07:38
Ah, I finally have the book in front of me.
Well, the genies are part of a general tie to the plane of Air. The genies are mentioned along with other elemental creatures. The words and terms used are not "Real world". The names used are rather neutral and the cultural references are not tied to any specific earthly culture; there is a Rashid, but also a Duncan and Anders among the Pashas. Viziers has been used all over the place in fantasy history, although the Turkish Pasha seems a bit out of place. There are desert bandits, but no nomads or Bedouin-like tribes are mentioned. To call it Arabic from the information in F3 becomes a bit like calling Cormyr French to me because it has knights, kings and feudal elements. In many ways I think the late 2nd edition version of Calimshan is far more "Middle Eastern" than the old version.
I agree that there are a few elements included, but I still find it a bit strange that it has been included in the areas that shows strong "Real World" elements. Compared with the Moonshae's, Anauroch, Hordelands (and neighbours) and Ancient Empires there is not that to base it on in the early published material. The reason that I am mentioning this is that I only recently got my hands on F3, and I was surprised, as I always thought the product to be responsible for the image, but if I had bought it fifteen-twenty years ago, before I knew anything about the region, I don't think it would have brought forth an image of a middle eastern culture to me personally.
I am curious; Thauramath, and those here that have used the Realms since its earliest days, was there always an image of the region as a "Thousand-and-One-Nights" region when you read the gaming products or was that an element that came later (if at all)? I don't mean if you ran it that way, but how the books read to you. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 15:36:31
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
The artist commissioned to do the art, or whoever got them to do it, was probably just not a hard-core realms nerd and went with what they knew. Ed and other realmsian authors/designers/etc in general are (in my experience) pretty clear that real world inspirations and influences in Toril are vague and distant, but you'd really have to be eyeball deep in the lore for that to mean a whole lot.
Well, FR3 was published in '88, so the framework was still loose. I would say that more than one designer was clear in adding Real World elements, especially names, but Haring this book is not one of them (as I said, as far as I remember). But still Calimshan got marked with an "arabic" feel when talked about. Was this from Salvatore or some other novel?
The Halfling's Gem, which was the first novel set partly in Calimshan, was published after FR3-Empires of the Sands, so chances are RAS followed the image created by FR3.
Although there's nothing in FR3 that shouts out "LOOK! THIS IS ARABIC", there are some references that can be taken as making Calimshan "Middle Eastern". There's a big, sandy desert, filled with desert raiders (robbers on horses, wielding scimitars), there are genies, there are pashas (the ruler of Calimshan is being referred to as "Pasha"), and there is mention of "viziers". The genies play a huge role in the history of Calimshan (djinn, efreeti, etc.), and these are very much tied in with Arabic (pulp) lore.
Along with the location (in the hot south), it must have been only a small leap to a "Thousand-and-One-Nights" type of land. And hence... |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 13:53:11
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
The artist commissioned to do the art, or whoever got them to do it, was probably just not a hard-core realms nerd and went with what they knew. Ed and other realmsian authors/designers/etc in general are (in my experience) pretty clear that real world inspirations and influences in Toril are vague and distant, but you'd really have to be eyeball deep in the lore for that to mean a whole lot.
Well, FR3 was published in '88, so the framework was still loose. I would say that more than one designer was clear in adding Real World elements, especially names, but Haring this book is not one of them (as I said, as far as I remember). But still Calimshan got marked with an "arabic" feel when talked about. Was this from Salvatore or some other novel? |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 13:46:26
The artist commissioned to do the art, or whoever got them to do it, was probably just not a hard-core realms nerd and went with what they knew. Ed and other realmsian authors/designers/etc in general are (in my experience) pretty clear that real world inspirations and influences in Toril are vague and distant, but you'd really have to be eyeball deep in the lore for that to mean a whole lot. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 13:19:19
I have been curious about this; from what I remember ( I don't have the book in front of me at the moment) Empires of the Sands didn't, except for the cover, really make the region that "middle eastern"; and Ed's version was not either, so where did image come from? |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 07:25:53
Cool, thanks, that pretty much says it all right there. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 06:44:46
Steven Schend has pretty much said what he drew upon for the further development of Calimshan from Ed's basic material:-
quote:
"I had the good fortune to get to revamp and update those areas in LANDS OF INTRIGUE and EMPIRES OF THE SHINING SEA. My major contributions were in finishing the Restoration of Tethyr, making Amn a little more aware of the consequences of its actions (i.e. Maztica, ogre mages, rebel cities, etc.), and making Calimshan less Arabian and more Turkish / Ottoman Empire (since we had AL-QADIM covering the Arabian stuff quite well)."
Also:-
quote:
Calimshan--Medieval Turkey and Byzantine Empire
And finally:-
quote:
I'll be the first to confess that Turkish history and culture had a lot more play than I expected it would when I was writing up Calimshan in Empires of the Shining Sea. The main reason I layered in more Turkish grace notes was to differentiate Calishites from the Bedine and the Zakharans, both cultures being far more directly Arabic in inspiration.
As for the Amn / Tethyr bits, you guys are on the mark; there is probably more Calishite leftover culture in Amn because they were always a bit removed from the lash, unlike Tethyr. Thus, while both were born from a mix of immigrant conquerors/overlords from Calimshan, Amn and Tethyr have their touches of the south in varying degrees. That's why I always hint at the links to Moorish Spain and southern France for them--the architecture and some of the religion and customs remain, even if they outwardly hate the culture from which it came.
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