| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dracons |
Posted - 19 May 2010 : 22:51:36
As a major DM, I love to allow my players to embrace their characters histories and such. One of my players is a CN cleric/wizard/Mystic Thurge of Velsharoon. However, my reading is rather limited thus far on him. I own all the books for 3.0 and 3.5, with one single book that is second edition called Cloak and Dagger (which I love to death... It seems that 2nd book had alot of in dept lore compared to alot of the third edition books.
I do know he was an ex-red wizard of Thay, (Szass Rival), became a god in 1368 due to a path set out by Talos but realizing that Talos would use him to until he was drained, switch sides to Mystra and Azuth. Rumor also has it that he's been talking to Shar about Shadow Weave. Other then that, I have nothing on him. My player has made a few temples and shrines for him, has converted some people. But I'd like to know what major NPC's, Prestige Classes (I'll even take homebrew if they are decent enough), more history on him, temple location (I belive the only one is the valley of Bones??), special cleric spells, (I never saw an Iniate Feat... any tips for those?).
I'll take everything please. Even homebrew I'll consider.
At least in my world, He will somehow steal part of the Shadow Weave portfio in the sense he'll also have Necromancy of that area too, while keeping the normal weave. I know that's against estabish lore that its one side or the other, but eh, Sometimes small rules are to be broken. He already playing both sides of the field. No real reason he can't have both fields of necromancy.
But yeah, anything please. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 15:12:31
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I like crossovers and linkages between worlds, but only to an extent. I don't subscribe to the idea that more lore connections means better/best lore. Sometimes simple is nice too. 2cp.
-- George Krashos
Hmmm, true. I do have a tendency to build connections. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 03:58:13
I like crossovers and linkages between worlds, but only to an extent. I don't subscribe to the idea that more lore connections means better/best lore. Sometimes simple is nice too. 2cp.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 01:57:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay,
You just mentioned a possible linkage between GH's "Scarlet Brotherhood" and the Halruaan "Red Wizards". I've often wondered such, what with their focus in both cultures on racial superiority and arcane power. The focus on the color red I would find a little spurious, as red is a common "color of power" since it corresponds to both fire and blood. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this though if it could be worked up right. For instance, maybe some of the Halruaan "red wizards" got ahold of a copy of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign , which was the manifesto for the Scarlet Brotherhood, and in reading through it they decided to model themselves on this other culture (seeing in it possibly a return to their own Netherese greatness, which actually seems to have fallen just several centuries before the Suel). I state this timing, as near as I can figure, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed 3 years before the rain of Colorless Fire in 5091 SD (so the rain of colorless fire must have been in 5094 SD) and the Greyhawk wars appear to be in 6096 SD... and I'm assuming the Grehawk Wars to correspond to roughly maybe 1368 DR in the realms calendar (give or take 10 years, which doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things).
So, Netheril Falls... about roughly 7 centuries later the Suel fall... maybe 4 or 5 centuries later some Halruaans somehow or other get ahold of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign or maybe travel to Oerth and meet...maybe even marry... some members of the Scarlet brotherhood. Someone decides to copy the concept and calls themselves "red wizards". It would be believable. The question is how does it improve things to add this complexity?
Well, I may have just answered my own question in another thread. It could improve things if we link Thayd to the Suel. It could explain him becoming a Suel lich. Maybe he was even a founding member of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Then the rain of colorless fire happened and he became a Suel lich. We'd just need to get him from his death in roughly -1081 DR to Greyhawk in 360 DR (or -421 CY from what I see for Greyhawk common years) and somehow part of the racist Suel Imperium (he'd fit right in with his attitude). |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 16:32:24
That's an odd way of trying to homogenize liches. Acererak and Vecna have dramatically different histories and motivations from Larloch and Velsharoon.
Acererak had...issues and decided to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane.
Vecna did die, and was resurrected by people being so terrified of him that his very memory was enough to deify him.
Larloch is Evil Not-God!Boccob.
Velsharoon actively sought out godhood. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 19:47:45
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)
We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.
Yeah, and we do know some of Velsharoon's back story. Essentially his apotheosis into a god was also part of his apotheosis into a lich. So, he was mortal before becoming a god and he became a lich, not a demilich.
Acererak was a lich and became a demilich and was in greyhawk.
Thinking merging these two isn't gonna be a win.
Yeah, its rough. I was just brain-storming to see if it could be done. Anything can be done, I suppose, when magic is involved, but all of this just gets very wonky right away (and shark-jumps a few of my better, established theories, making them look crappy in the process).
From a purely technical point of view, turning larloch into Vecna (or vice-versa) is actually easier - they do have a lot in common - but personality-wise, not so much. in that regard, Acererak and Velsharoon are a better fit. Larloch just wants to be left alone, and Vecna tried to become the OVER-Overgod of the entire multiverse. VERY different people, even though power-wise they are on par.
Now, making the Sojourner into Vecna might work... 
EDIT:
Actually, NIX THAT. The Sojourner was actually much more like Larloch than Vecna. Those two are 'amoral', whereas Vecna is definitely 'immoral'. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 19:44:30
Markustay,
You just mentioned a possible linkage between GH's "Scarlet Brotherhood" and the Halruaan "Red Wizards". I've often wondered such, what with their focus in both cultures on racial superiority and arcane power. The focus on the color red I would find a little spurious, as red is a common "color of power" since it corresponds to both fire and blood. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this though if it could be worked up right. For instance, maybe some of the Halruaan "red wizards" got ahold of a copy of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign , which was the manifesto for the Scarlet Brotherhood, and in reading through it they decided to model themselves on this other culture (seeing in it possibly a return to their own Netherese greatness, which actually seems to have fallen just several centuries before the Suel). I state this timing, as near as I can figure, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed 3 years before the rain of Colorless Fire in 5091 SD (so the rain of colorless fire must have been in 5094 SD) and the Greyhawk wars appear to be in 6096 SD... and I'm assuming the Grehawk Wars to correspond to roughly maybe 1368 DR in the realms calendar (give or take 10 years, which doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things).
So, Netheril Falls... about roughly 7 centuries later the Suel fall... maybe 4 or 5 centuries later some Halruaans somehow or other get ahold of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign or maybe travel to Oerth and meet...maybe even marry... some members of the Scarlet brotherhood. Someone decides to copy the concept and calls themselves "red wizards". It would be believable. The question is how does it improve things to add this complexity? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 19:21:35
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by see
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.
Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.
What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?
Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond.
Velsharoon corpse was interned in Algarond in 4e.
Of course if he was still a lich then hos soul may have fled to a phylatory.
One deity that is mentioned in the SCAG is Galguarth, the devil God, who it appears is trapped and has lost his Godhood some how and is offering pacts in the mean time.
Exactly, Velsharoon... who is Mellifleur (or rather supplanted Mellifleur).. has a body in Aglarond. Now, what "personality" was in control of that body? We already know that two "gods" can inhabit the same space so to speak. It is problematic and eventually comes to a head (as we saw the Asmodeus / Azuth), and possibly leading into the spellplague there were many such instances that mortals truly didn't know about or understand. For instance, Leira may have been riding Cyric (you will note after he read the Cyrinishad, his personality turned a little more "mercurial" ). Amaunator and Lathander may have been having a fight behind the scenes. Talos may have been fighting with several entities that it had subsumed over time. Finder may have had a little bit of Moander to deal with. This might be able to explain a lot of gods that left and came back, as during the spellplague maybe they were split between worlds by Ao. We could even maybe use this to help explain some weird things that happened post spellplague, like Lolth wanting to split herself into multiple entities on her own.
BTW, on the Leira front, I half wonder if Cyric learning the truename of Ariel for Mystra may not have even somehow been a subterfuge by Leira while she was riding Cyric. Perhaps he even used this "truename" in his assault on Mystra's dweomerheart, and the use of it actually kicked off SOMETHING (undefined plot device), which is what caused the spellplague and possibly even the fall apart of the shadow weave. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 19:08:31
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)
We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.
Yeah, and we do know some of Velsharoon's back story. Essentially his apotheosis into a god was also part of his apotheosis into a lich. So, he was mortal before becoming a god and he became a lich, not a demilich.
Acererak was a lich and became a demilich and was in greyhawk.
Thinking merging these two isn't gonna be a win. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 18:16:54
I can still make it work: I edited the above post, but I'll repost it here, so it comes in-order properly -
quote:
There is enough time in both their lives for one guy to have been both people, especially considering the involvement of Ravenloft. (if he was a demigod at the time - which he was - Vecna's one Avatar may have been 'locked' to GH's Prime Material, where he obtained that status, thus, RL would have had to replicate a new Vecna, whilst the original languished in his phylactory for a time).
The assumption I am working with here is that Larloch left Faerûn for a time after the fall of Netheril and became Vecna (its actually far more convoluted than that, and uses my Netheril/Imaskar = Suloise/Baklunish theory), and got 'copied' after his first fall, with one returning to his phylactory in FR's Warlock's Crypt (his own, fallen city of Jiksidur), and the other appearing in the Domains of Dread. The RL clone becomes even more powerful than the original (maybe), and almost re-writes the multiverse in the process, but then he is defeated and de-powered (after his attack on Sigil, he probably was destroyed for good, but then Larloch took up the mantle of his destroyed doppleganger, thus appearing as 'depowered' after his defeat).
Yes, its a bit of a mess, and I haven't even touched upon Acererak/Velsharoon's involvement. Whereas I think Vecna is actually Larloch, I think Vel is actually Ace (thus, they steal Vel from us - sort of - but we steal Vecna from them - sort of).
It does help to explain why Velsharoon is 'back' in 5e - because he was 'rebooted' from an earlier 'save', he is in his Acererak persona, and thats why we have Ace now (who is still Vel, and thats why invoking him helps spells).
So my thinking here is that once a lich's lifeforce enters the phylactory, it may only leave it under the normal means - even the 'Dark Powers' of Ravenloft can't circumvent that. So if Vecna (who was really Larloch) got defeated and went back into it, RL would have copied him then, and the original would only retain the memories it had when it entered the phylactory. The same may have happened to Acererak/Velsharoon - Acererak entered his own phylactory after a defeat, and then was 'reborn' as Velsharoon in the Realms (for whatever reason - maybe Larloch brought him over). then he was killed - outright (his old phylactory in GH would still house his original lifeforce {it couldn't 'save' the data acquired on another world}), and then finally brought back by Ao when he un-Sundered the world (reset it). The version Ao brought back, though, was the one that was in the phylactory, from GH, and its memories of being Vel are hazy, at best.
Works for me... but then again, I'm a GH fan from way back. 
EDIT:
This also helps explain why some liches (ie., Azalin) in Ravenloft are incapable of learning/growing more powerful - they are not the genuine article. They are merely 'snapshots' of whats inside the phylactory. They aren't 'real' in the normal sense of the word (whereas other people's actual lifeforce - at least, living people, not undead - is transferred to the Domains of Dread). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 17:46:45
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by see
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.
Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.
What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?
Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond.
Velsharoon corpse was interned in Algarond in 4e.
Of course if he was still a lich then hos soul may have fled to a phylatory.
One deity that is mentioned in the SCAG is Galguarth, the devil God, who it appears is trapped and has lost his Godhood some how and is offering pacts in the mean time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 17:16:43
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)
We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.
Well, I was just throwing out ideas - I figured it wouldn't work for them to be the same (although, who is to say Acererak didn't leave GH for a time to learn magic in Halruaa under an alias? Maybe Vel has been Ace all along, and we just didn't know it).
Maybe he created the 'Red Wizards' because it reminded him a bit of the Scarlet Brotherhood? 
I know - some of you who don't care for the blending of FR and GH now have that vein in your forehead throbbing.
And what if Velsharoon learned some of his 'tricks' from Larloch? that would make the Acererak/Vecna story VERY similar to a Velsharoon/Larloch story.
And I've been dying to say Larloch and Vecna are actually the same guy, but that would be even harder to pull-off than saying Velsharoon has been Acererak the whole time. And, whereas I expect a negative reaction to the one thing I am proposing, I think this bit will get me tar and feathered around here. 
EDIT:
There is enough time in both their lives for one guy to have been both people, especially considering the involvement of Ravenloft. (if he was a demigod at the time - which he was - Vecna one Avatar may have been 'locked' to GH's Prime Material, where he obtained that status, thus, RL would have had to replicate a new Vecna, whilst the original languished in his phylactory for a time).
The assumption I am working with here is that Larloch left Faerûn for a time after the fall of Netheril and became Vecna (its actually far more convoluted than that, and uses my Netheril/Imaskar = Suloise/Baklunish theory), and got 'copied' after his first fall, with one returning to his phylactory in FR's Warlock's Crypt (his own, fallen city of Jiksidur), and the other appearing in the Domains of dread. The RL clone becomes even more powerful than the original (maybe), and almost re-writes the multiverse in the process, but then he is defeated and de-powered (after his attack on Sigil, he probably was destroyed for good, but then Larloch took up the mantle of his destroyed dopplganger, thus appearing as 'depowered' after his defeat).
Yes, its a bit of a mess, and I haven't even touched upon Acererak/Velsharoon's involvement. Whereas I think Vecna is actually Larloch, I think Vel is actually Ace (thus, they steal Vel from us - sort of - but we steal Vecna from them - sort of).
It does help to explain why Velsharoon is 'back' in 5e - because he was 'rebooted' from earlier 'save', he is in his Acererak persona, and thats why we have Ace now (who is still Vel, and thats why invoking him helps spells). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 16:31:56
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by see
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.
Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.
What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?
Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 15:29:58
quote:
Originally posted by see
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.
Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA. |
| fw190a8 |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 15:09:56
quote:
Did you try the FR Wiki? Here's an article about Velsharoon
Unfortunately like a lot of the articles, it's base-level information. It's well sourced, but not detailed.
I have, at least, prepared the "further reading" list to include more sources so it's easy to find where things are. There's probably a lot more canon info scattered among various online articles and forum posts though, so please feel free to drop them in there as "further reading" if you like! |
| see |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 08:57:42
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 07:43:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)
We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 07:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.
Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons.
Where does it say he's not back in 5E?
The only mention of him is in the Adversary, where his name still has power when used to invoke necromantic effects. He's not in the 5e god list. Savras however, is listed. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 05:08:33
First, let me say you've got me thinking all sorts of 'nasty thoughts' now, lore-wise.
Thayd sounds very much like he became what Tan Chin became - a Suel lich, which is more like a powerful ghost than a lich, who specializes in possession. I assume Tan Chin learned it from his Imaskari connections - maybe Thayd got it from him? Solon isn't that far from Thay.
Back when I was working on the Utter East, I decided that Savras was a naturalized Halruaan, originally from the Utter East (I needed the 'third eye' connection), who went to Halruaa to study. It would make some sense if perhaps Savras was also involved in the Halruaan Civil War, maybe on the winning side (against Thayd).
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)
There was an organization of 'White Wizards' in the Old Empires (its mentioned somewhere in the original material) who were also anti-establishment, IIRC. There is also a mention of 'Black Wizards' in the Blood Magic video game, which takes place in the Utter East. Seems to me, 'southern' mages tend to organize themselves around colors, rather than schools (and this could also have something to do with 'Southern Magic', which seems to be a hybrid form that allows divine casting as well).
There was an old SPI game my friends and I had a lot of fun paling, called Sorcerer, wherein the magic was based on colors - since Hasbro now owns all the rights to SPI, someone over there (I know at least one of you are reading this) should dig up that game, slap a new coat of paint on it, and SELL IT. It was unique in that instead of needing a certain number of movement points to enter a hex, you instead needed a certain number to leave it, which could get you trapped if you are not careful (different colored units paid different prices to leave specific-colored hexes... sort of like how MtG has 'land types').
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 05:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.
Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons.
Where does it say he's not back in 5E? |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 03:55:20
In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.
Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 16:25:49
Oh and here's the lore that says Thayd is some kind of spirit. It was from THO in apparently some ask Ed thread.
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
Again, my take on this is one of Thayd being a vestige who gives greater power than normal but at some kind of cost, and many of his followers being anima mages. His "disappearance" was basically when all of his anima mages were maybe killed off and knowledge of the binding ritual to summon him was destroyed. This may have been by Ythazz Buvarr and those who went on to form the Zulkirate, or it may have been other individuals entirely.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 16:20:12
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
What is the norm now is not what always was.
<snip>
So way back when, when the zulkirate was formed, the cabals that helped with the rebellion got a voice on that council (each likely had a member per cabal, i doubt if the original zulkirate was even organised around schools of magic).
<snip>
Kind of true, but not quite. The Zulkirate forming was when the schools of magic thing started. The original Zulkirs were Thayd's lieutenants (it should be noted that that Jorgmacdon is the "first Zulkir of Conjuration", yet the below states that in 1030 it was someone else... so he was one of Thayd's lieutenants who was later bypassed... possibly due to his Narfellian blood?). It should also be noted that Ythazz Buvarr isn't on the list for 1030, but he was essential in the founding of the Zulkirate, so presumably he was the first Zulkir of divination as that one isn't listed. See below from THO, which came from something at GenCon one year
below from said post from THO
Hi again, all.
As promised, Ed has unearthed that handout from GenCon back in 1991 in response to Thauramarth's query about the zulkirs of Thay. Here (Copyright © 1991 by TSR, Inc. but handed out to a seminar audience with verbal permission given by Ed and TSR staffers that it could be reproduced and disseminated freely for use in home Realms campaigns, and this post is precisely that sort of "reproduction") is the text of "what the public can see" (those were Jim Ward's words, I believe) about the rulers of Thay:
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Oct 2010 04:03:29
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 16:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
What is the norm now is not what always was.
The ruling zulkirate was originally a collection of secret and powerful cabals manipulating events to get their favoured candidates on the council.
There were lots of these cabals, the Red Wizards were just one such example. The zulkirs also are not always the most powerful specialist in their field.
So way back when, when the zulkirate was formed, the cabals that helped with the rebellion got a voice on that council (each likely had a member per cabal, i doubt if the original zulkirate was even organised around schools of magic).
As members were killed off by peers, or exiled for incompetence/betrayal, or more rarely died of natural causes, then the existing members chose new members from their own allies (based on what their sponsoring master desired) and as naturally happens the council becomes polarised around two groups.
We know there was an uprising of sorts (1130 ish springs to mind but im going off the top of my head here) as the two dominating factions came to blows. Those that lost and those that refused to take sides or couldnt accept the new order were exiled and became renegades.
At this point it is likely a mulan superiority faction came to dominate the council and you have the zulkirate come to resemble what it is now.
So in summary, mixed subrace before reorganisation of the council (rashemmi, nar, mulan, halruaan at a guess) then almost entirely mulan after the reorganisation.
Yeah, it should also be noted that there were "Zulkirs" before there was a "Zulkirate". The original "Zulkirs" were Thayd's lieutenants and weren't necessarily wizards. It should also be noted that there's this odd mixture of stories about the Thayan uprising, because some say that Thayd led it (lore from Ed released at a GenCon which names some of the original Zulkirs in the Zulkirate)... and other say that Ythazz Buvarr led it. I opt for the idea that it was both. It should be noted that Thayd's involvement would have been as some kind of "spirit" that was riding bodies and "burning them out". My third edition take on this is that Thayd is actually a vestige now, and binding him gives a lot of power, but at some kind of cost/disadvantage. I would alter the story to be that a lot of the early red wizards on the "Thayd side" were actually anima mages who were studying the lost lore of the Theurgist Adepts, and over the hundred years following the uprising, many of them were weaned out via death/assassination/mage duels/etc....
My view of Ythazz Buvarr is that he was a lieutenant of Thayd's millennia ago when Thayd was alive. Essentially, Ythazz Buvarr was a theurgist adept of fledgling power levels who survived,, went somewhere else (probably Narfell or the Boneyard or both), became a lich, became entrapped in his phylactery because it was somewhere without a prepared dead body for him to reform into, and his phylactery was discovered by the red wizards of Halruaa (and it was Velsharoon who freed him). Later, after the Zulkirate was formed, Ythazz became a demilich and was eventually entrapped beneath Bezantur.
That's my short version. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 15:21:50
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Either way it could use more clarity on Halruaan invovlement in Thay given that the ruling red wizards are all Mulan and have been for some time now.
I totally agree, and at one time I was TRYING to write a short story about Velsharoon's early life and I was detailing other Halruaan NPC's to be his friends. I had them actually freeing Ythazz Buvarr from his phylactery, and thus how they became involved with him. I also had Velsharoon's other Halruaan friends being A) a mystic theurge of illusion and worship of Leira (who was a spy for Nimbral). Another friend was a socially retarded but brilliant mage who had discovered Chronomancy through experimentation, and I was going to use that to allow Velsharoon and their fellow "red wizards" to raid ancient times for lore (which is what got them in trouble). Then I had a conjurer/binder/anima mage/alienist who was very much into study of other dimensions (far realm, place where vestiges exist, etc...). BTW, my version of Velsharoon isn't a necromancer specialist. He's a non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/binder with appropriate prestige classes to max wizard and dread necro and get binder casting to like 13th level or so.
What happens to them all? I never really detailed it, though I was going to have Velsharoon visit the necromantic isle of Sehu (Sahu?) before he helped form the "red wizard" society. I figured I'd also include some more standard spellcasters to have die off in the civil war. On the Zhengyi thing, I was going to have them actually meet in the storyline as well, and Zhengyi and Jorgmacdon being involved in the Thayan uprising.
As to how they became Mulan... 108 years passed. Some died. Some married and their kids became Mulan. Some turned renegade. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 14:55:16
What is the norm now is not what always was.
The ruling zulkirate was originally a collection of secret and powerful cabals manipulating events to get their favoured candidates on the council.
There were lots of these cabals, the Red Wizards were just one such example. The zulkirs also are not always the most powerful specialist in their field.
So way back when, when the zulkirate was formed, the cabals that helped with the rebellion got a voice on that council (each likely had a member per cabal, i doubt if the original zulkirate was even organised around schools of magic).
As members were killed off by peers, or exiled for incompetence/betrayal, or more rarely died of natural causes, then the existing members chose new members from their own allies (based on what their sponsoring master desired) and as naturally happens the council becomes polarised around two groups.
We know there was an uprising of sorts (1130 ish springs to mind but im going off the top of my head here) as the two dominating factions came to blows. Those that lost and those that refused to take sides or couldnt accept the new order were exiled and became renegades.
At this point it is likely a mulan superiority faction came to dominate the council and you have the zulkirate come to resemble what it is now.
So in summary, mixed subrace before reorganisation of the council (rashemmi, nar, mulan, halruaan at a guess) then almost entirely mulan after the reorganisation. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 14:52:13
It's an easy fix: they're Mulan now. They intermarried with the locals, with the magical tradition being what's passed on. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 18 Jul 2017 : 14:21:27
Either way it could use more clarity on Halruaan invovlement in Thay given that the ruling red wizards are all Mulan and have been for some time now. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 21:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Velsharoon is a Mulan, not apart of the Mulhorand Pantheon originally.
How funny would it be if he was brought by as a member of the incarnated Mulhorandi Pantheon by accident, because of his bloodline.
Velsharoon is not a Mulan. Velsharoon is a Halruaan. There were always "rumors that the original red wizards were Halruaan exiles" (note this harkens back all the way to the old grey box, wherein Ed had TSR send out some mailer that discussed the first look at Halruaa to the people that bought the OGB), and Velsharoon is noted in the histories being involved in the area. I firmly believe that he was originally a Halruaan who helped free Thay, only to be turned against because he wasn't Mulan when the Zulkirate formed. This would be why he is considered an ex-red wizard and an enemy of the state.
Is it official that Velsharoon waa Halruaan instead of Mulan, or is it a hzpothesis?
Unofficial, but evidence points strongly to it. Nothing in evidence points to him being Mulan. For instance the GHotR and Shining South both have an entry calling him a red wizard BEFORE Thay ever existed by 95 years (which its hinted that "red wizards" existed prior to "red wizards of Thay"). That entry occurred in combat with a wizard of Halruaa who is noted as the modern Velsharoon's enemy.
827 DR Year of the Sacrificed Fortune
The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named
Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw.
Also there is this from the Secrets of the Sages Mailer whose link was provided by Wooly a couple messages back.
These Halruan magic-users are of great and mysterious power. Thay#146;'s current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages.
Also, there is this from the original FR16 Shining South page 4
Halruaa also suffered through a civil war about five centuries ago. A number of mages advocated beginning new experiments in magic,
ones which even the Netheril didn#146;t approve of. The renegades were driven from the region. The surviving renegades left to found the land of Thay, or so it is said in Halruaa.
So, we have Velsharoon fighting a Halruaan 5 centuries ago. We have that there was a Halruaan civil war 5 centuries ago. We have Velsharoon called a "red wizard" 5 centuries prior ago and nearly a century prior to the founding of Thay. We have that "renegade Halruaans" helped found Thay.
Now, one can come up with 50 ways to spin that and say that he's not from Halruaa, but the simplest answer based on the evidence is that he was from Halruaa.. that the Halruaan civil war involved him and Omm Hlandrar... that he is still the same red wizard mentioned from that time... that he and other Halruaan wizards then migrated to Thay and aided the Thayan uprising. 108 years after the uprising the Zulkirate was formed, and it was probably at this time that Velsharoon became a renegade red wizard (though when he went renegade is still up in the air).
Personally, I like the idea as well that both he and and the Witch King Zhengyi were "compatriots" of some sort, since both are "renegade red wizards". I wouldn't say though that Zhengyi is Halruaan. In fact, I would say he probably has some Narfellian blood (possibly Narfellian royal blood). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 12:19:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Velsharoon is a Mulan, not apart of the Mulhorand Pantheon originally.
How funny would it be if he was brought by as a member of the incarnated Mulhorandi Pantheon by accident, because of his bloodline.
Velsharoon is not a Mulan. Velsharoon is a Halruaan. There were always "rumors that the original red wizards were Halruaan exiles" (note this harkens back all the way to the old grey box, wherein Ed had TSR send out some mailer that discussed the first look at Halruaa to the people that bought the OGB), and Velsharoon is noted in the histories being involved in the area. I firmly believe that he was originally a Halruaan who helped free Thay, only to be turned against because he wasn't Mulan when the Zulkirate formed. This would be why he is considered an ex-red wizard and an enemy of the state.
Is it official that Velsharoon waa Halruaan instead of Mulan, or is it a hzpothesis? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 04:22:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Velsharoon is a Mulan, not apart of the Mulhorand Pantheon originally.
How funny would it be if he was brought by as a member of the incarnated Mulhorandi Pantheon by accident, because of his bloodline.
Velsharoon is not a Mulan. Velsharoon is a Halruaan. There were always "rumors that the original red wizards were Halruaan exiles" (note this harkens back all the way to the old grey box, wherein Ed had TSR send out some mailer that discussed the first look at Halruaa to the people that bought the OGB), and Velsharoon is noted in the histories being involved in the area. I firmly believe that he was originally a Halruaan who helped free Thay, only to be turned against because he wasn't Mulan when the Zulkirate formed. This would be why he is considered an ex-red wizard and an enemy of the state.
Actually, that wasn't Ed pushing TSR to do that -- it was the result of a miscommunication. (Surprisingly, this old article can still be found, *and* a pdf of that newsletter can be downloaded direct from WotC)
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010131c |
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