| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 00:52:54
Okay, I know Kelemvor didn't become a god until dr 1368. Where do his first priests come from? Say you were running a game in 1368dr and just a few years after that. Where would his priests come from. I know most of Myrkul's priests were absorbed by Cyric well before this dr. Also Myrkul's alignment is a lot of different NE vs LN. So if you were running around this time and a few years after would most of his priest just be real low level or are they from other faiths? I do get there would be a few from Myrkul but it seems there couldn't be very many. All info would be helpful, thanks. |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 10:58:56
Any thoughts of canon when it doesn't fit with the ideas or actions of the campaign in question can be as much of a hindrance as it can be a helpful suggestion. Where RPG's (or ones own imagination for that matter) is concerned, I would say that the only canon that exists is the one that is developed by the people involved.
As for Myrkul. I prefer him to Kelemvor (although I have usually split his worship into two cults, one for the fall with the death of nature and one for the undead), but I like the Crown of Horns idea. Nothing fits old S&S pulps like captured gods. I don't care much for the idea that the deity is happy with the situation though; but then again, I never included AO in my Realms.
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| Darkmeer |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 08:33:12
Goodness me. I've read everything twice here. And I do have some comments. I'm going to work through a couple of thoughts here, and it'll likely be shorter than my first reply, but here goes
Okay, as to the Kelemvor priests returning to Myrkul. I don't think that would be as common an event. Many former Banites and Bhaal worshippers did not convert back to Bane, except in forced circumstances. This did strengthen Cyric, who was the interloper and much happier for that. I'm not sure how the new "twilight" portfolio would work out for Myrkul. He would, likely, garner some of his old worshippers back from the ranks of things such as the undead (i.e. vampires and such who converted to Cyric). The overall feel that I have for the priests jumping faiths is only if there is a major schism within the church that would force them out. Most former Myrkulites were deeply into the "death rites" of the old clergy. Not as many necromancers. Seeing as this is the case now, I think that the main parts of the faith are going to be intact with Kelemvor rather than Myrkul. Especially with changing his overall portfolio.
Now, Given that he's now Dusk, Fall, and Dark Fey creatures, I can see a great druidic tradition in his faith. Actually, given that he's a deity of fall, rot and corruption could fall into his portfolio as well. Think about something like the Temple of Elemental Evil, or, Moander's portfolio. Bam, you have a lot of crazy cultists, and possibly ripping into the fabric of reality itself to give Myrkul power, while diverting the attention to a "demon worshipping cult." The Dark Fey and druids could mislead the populace (an evil druid, mwahahaha), and in doing so would be able to come out looking like the good guys with the demon cult being "defeated." Bam! Myrkulite worship comes up in force, slowly corrupting to the new, darker path (probably over a year or two).
As to the sundering and creation of three weaves: I like and don't like this idea. It takes something that wasn't there before and makes it different yet familiar. This is a fun idea because of the familiarity. At the same time, I don't like it because I prefer just the two weaves (not to worry, I'll run with your assumptions, it's your game!). So, given that there are now three weaves, how does the general populace feel, or do they know yet? If they are unaware, how powerful do you plan on letting it get before stretching the power out and letting the people fear Myrkul like they used to? If they are aware, are they going to form a resistance to this new interloper weave (the same can be said of the Shadow Weave and Shar)?
Also, since you have three weaves now, which weave is best at what? Shadow weave is Illusions and Enchantments, Twilight would be Necromancy and Divinations? Normal weave would be anything else? Just curious here as to the intent of the new division. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 07:57:35
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
I agree with Halidan about making the changes to YOUR Realms you want (MY Realms don't look like yours, but that's okay, it's supposed to be that way  ). I like what you did with Myrkul. Sadly, due to being ill, my reply will be delayed yet another couple of days. You put a lot of stuff out there, so I want to make sure I give it all its due.
/d
Oh, thank you very much  & I hope you getting better quickly |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 07:12:58
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
In my opinion, the crown was certainly much better than having poor old Bane burst out of Xvim's chest like some crazed Alien. 
Are you sure it wasn't a trick by Xvim, eh? 
/d
Now, off to bed. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 07:09:08
I agree with Halidan about making the changes to YOUR Realms you want (MY Realms don't look like yours, but that's okay, it's supposed to be that way ). I like what you did with Myrkul. Sadly, due to being ill, my reply will be delayed yet another couple of days. You put a lot of stuff out there, so I want to make sure I give it all its due.
/d |
| Halidan |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 06:39:38
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
It is of course easy to misunderstand a person on the net but from the way I read that are you actually interested or were you telling me that I should use what they've written?
When running the realms, I really try to use everything they put out but I reserve the right to change anything I do not like or add anything I really need to the setting. I do try to keep most of it cannon but there are some parts I cannot abide.
I wouldn't worry about anyone trying to make you use only established Realms facts (also called cannon by some) Woodwwad. I don't think any of us here have any problem with making changes to the established Realms setting. In fact, most of us do it all the time. Ed Greenwood himself has encouraged DM's to take the framework of the Forgotten Realms and make it their own.
Most of us are just curious about the changes you've made and the reasons behind them. We may question those reasons to better understand them, and we may also offer our own ideas - either original ideas or bits and pieces of established Realms lore that we've found helpful. But that's about as far as most of us will go.
Over the years since these forums were established, I've found Candlekeep to be a great place to exchange ideas and test-drive new FR lore for my campaigns. Naturally, each person is going to have their own favorites that they will express and defend.
Like Wooly, I like Myrkul as an intellegent artifact and thought it was a stroke of genius to put him in the Crown. I've certainly gotten more use out of Myrkul as a piece of headgear that I ever got out of him as a Diety in my 1E Realms campaign. That's only my experience-yours will probably vary widely.
In my opinion, the crown was certainly much better than having poor old Bane burst out of Xvim's chest like some crazed Alien. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 00:28:49
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm curious about Myrkul being a god again, since we know he's happier not being a deity...
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
Well, I think that's a bad idea. To me, this falls into the catigory of only a little bit of thought went into it. The crown of horns idea, is my least favorite idea I've ever seen in all of role playing games. Yes, I'm being serious, I really hate the idea that much. IMO, the whole deal is really, really, really stupid, in a corny way.
Myrkul is my favorite god in FR but I hated what they did with him, so that put me thinking about what I'd do with him to make him different. So I worked on him, what I did certainly got me a lot more milage out of the god for my game than the cannon story.
The only part of what you mentioned above that I did use was his working against Cyric and Mystra.
It is of course easy to misunderstand a person on the net but from the way I read that are you actually interested or were you telling me that I should use what they've written?
When running the realms, I really try to use everything they put out but I reserve the right to change anything I do not like or add anything I really need to the setting. I do try to keep most of it cannon but there are some parts I cannot abide.
See, I was just curious, because to me, the idea of bringing him back in the Crown was a brilliant idea. Without invalidating any prior lore, it brought Myrkul back onto the playing field. And by having him not be a deity, he is pretty much free to do whatever he wants -- he's not bound by the limitations of only being able to act in regards to his portfolios. So the Crown idea gives us a thoroughly evil guy who's been around for a while, who knows how the gods work and how to work against them, who has the motivation to do so, and isn't concerned by mortal things like food or staying alive. He gets to operate in secrecy, and can just teleport out of danger if he really has to. Plus, even if you traced his actions to the wearer of the crown, you're not necessarily going to know it's the Crown or who is in it. Who's going to suspect a dead deity?
In short, I think Myrkul has become the perfect villain. I think he's got a lot more potential as an intelligent artifact playing behind the scenes than he does as a deity out where everyone -- particularly Ao, Cyric, and Mystra -- can see him. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 23:51:54
quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
Wow, that was a great answer. I've already told you I was interested somewhat in that idea, but you've solved any question I could have. Nice work, btw.
thank you very much, I'm glad to hear you found some use or interest in the idea.
Also, to anyone that is interested in using these concepts or npcs in their game, I can email you pictures on the characters and stat blocks for some of them. I have about 100 pictures of the characters involved with this storyline, I keep pics on my computers of most of my ncps of note so I can show my players. Many of them have names in both Sylvan (I made most of it up--not a whole language just names) and english.
Oh, quick note on the interloper gods I'm bringing in after the weave collapses, they'll be Odin (I think I'll eventually use his different names for different regions Woden, Wotan, ect), Loki (who'll kill Mask and take his portfolio, I just don't like Mask, he just seems so generic to me), and Thor (who'll come in with two different aspects, one will wage a war with Tempus and one with Talos. Eventually Talos and Tempus will win but both will absorb part of Thor into their essence, however, those aspects of Thor will change both those gods, giving them a Thorish flavor). This will happen as a result of Tyr using his followers to reconstruct magic. It'll be the end of the current game, and involve the death of three massive frost giants. The pcs will be involved with this. Two of them have ties to Tyr and one is a priest of tempus with strong ties to Talos, who has already see visions of the coming of Thor. He knows that Thor and Tyr are brothers but missed the slight clue I gave him in a vision (I use profecy, holy visions, ect in my games to add that epic feel, when they are usful), that Thor would not be coming alone. The gate was to bring Odin the father in, Thor the son comes too, and Loki---the shadow slips in as well.
One more quick note on Myrkul, as a god of a season, fey and a dusk, Myrkul's faith now supports druids. Also, in the dr 1373 the number of followers Myrkul has is really small. A lot of them are dark fey stolen from Shar, Vampires, and a few other types.
This has been of one my favorite D&D stories to tell, as Myrkul and is followers are evil but they present a good chase in a seductive way as to how they were wronged and they end up getting a lot of sympathy from many of the pcs. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 23:00:03
Wow, that was a great answer. I've already told you I was interested somewhat in that idea, but you've solved any question I could have. Nice work, btw. |
| Arzakon |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 17:45:03
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
Myrkul in my game returned to the status of a God with a long storyline involving his essence being merged with the para plane of positive and negative energy after his battle with Mystra. He returns through the shadow weave and begins to challenge Shar for control of it. Eventually bleeding off part of its power, creating the Twilight Weave.
What I'm going to say has nothing to do with Kelemvor, but even if I'm a bit curious about your new weave (looks like something quite interesting to use), the concept of the Weave itself prevents Myrkul, in my humble opinion, from creating his own Weave. Mystra handles and is part of the Weave because she is the daughter of Selūne, one of the two sisters who became the first goddesses. Selūne created the world, as you may know, and Shar actually wants to destroy it. So, because they were the first divinites and they're directly related to Lord Ao himself, they can make such things as the Weave. Shar, because of her power (In Faiths & Pantheons she's the only god with Divine Rank 19), her ascendancy and her war with his sister, has the "right" to create another Weave.
Myrkul is a cool god, and I loved the necromancer theme about death, but I think his portfolio, ascendancy and current divine rank (surely, less than Shar) would make it impossible for him to actually create his own Weave.
Even thou, it's a cool idea, seriously. I just wanted to point out that creating a Weave is not so easy. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 16:48:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm curious about Myrkul being a god again, since we know he's happier not being a deity...
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
Well, I think that's a bad idea. To me, this falls into the catigory of only a little bit of thought went into it. The crown of horns idea, is my least favorite idea I've ever seen in all of role playing games. Yes, I'm being serious, I really hate the idea that much. IMO, the whole deal is really, really, really stupid, in a corny way.
Myrkul is my favorite god in FR but I hated what they did with him, so that put me thinking about what I'd do with him to make him different. So I worked on him, what I did certainly got me a lot more milage out of the god for my game than the cannon story.
The only part of what you mentioned above that I did use was his working against Cyric and Mystra.
It is of course easy to misunderstand a person on the net but from the way I read that are you actually interested or were you telling me that I should use what they've written?
When running the realms, I really try to use everything they put out but I reserve the right to change anything I do not like or add anything I really need to the setting. I do try to keep most of it cannon but there are some parts I cannot abide. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 13:59:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm curious about Myrkul being a god again, since we know he's happier not being a deity...
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
And as I've long said, I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 13:38:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm curious about Myrkul being a god again, since we know he's happier not being a deity...
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
Silly Wooly......he got hit by a spark of the Spellplague and now enjoys it again!
And seriously, it would be interesting to know how he is handling it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 11:37:32
I'm curious about Myrkul being a god again, since we know he's happier not being a deity...
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
|
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 04 Feb 2010 : 07:06:09
See, I disagree about the church of Kelemvor. I see it as very... evangelistic in a way. Hear me out here:
Kelemvor's a new deity. Priests need to "prove" their worth, even the non-adventuring ones are going to gain "experience" by their interactions with the townsfolk. This means that they will advance.
I have more thoughts, but I'll put them to board once I have time to sort them a little better. Expect something Friday or Saturday. I like the storyline, by the way.
The one question I have is what changes you've made to Myrkul. If the priests are willing to help the PC's... This throws me off a bit, so please elaborate so I can try to follow your continuity. I want to make sure I understand the perspective before I go further.
Many thanks,
/d |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 07:32:39
Just a thought to the original question:
I think that there is a great mix of faiths in the church of Kelemvor. Some of these are definitely True Neutral former priests of Myrkul, who never fit in with Cyruk's faith. As far as "High Ranking" priests, I'd say that there are a good number of them from former Myrkulite ranks. The oddest part to this is I don't have a problem seeing a level 8 or 9 priest of Kelemvor, even higher in some cases.
The main reason for this is the level-based system. Sure the faith's young, but the fact that in 2 to 4 years' time a character CAN advance 10 levels or more, and that's WITHOUT adventuring (basing this on the Shackled City notes I have from the old Dungeon Magazines, the priests didn't adventure but they advanced with the PC's). So, given that Kelemvor's faith might actually include some spelunking into dungeons/catacombs, I can see his faith rising in level quite quickly. I would bet by the end of 1368, the highest ranking priest would be a former Myrkulite. 1369 the same, but his right-hand person would likely be a straight Kelemvorite. By 1371, this has reversed, and by 1372 the former Myrkulites are great beaurocrats in the church, but not in an obstructive way.
So, by the end of the time you have the following at the "top" of the faith:
Kelemvorite level 15-ish
Myrkulite level 13-ish (slower progression, fewer adventures, perhaps some in-faith persecution for following Myrkul prior to Kelemvor?)
Main mix of beaurocrats & other high-ranking priests being levels 8-11, both Myrkulites and Kelmvorites. Then you fall into the lesser priests, by this time are all Kelemvorites.
Then you have the other wings of the faith, such as paladin orders, which follow pretty much the same mix. I can even see Hexblades playinga role in Kelemvor's faith, mainly from the ex-Myrkulites. That'd be an interesting party:
LG Paladin of Kelemvor
LN Hexblade of Kelemvor (yes, I know, it's arcane, but humor me here)
N Cleric of Kelemvor (ex-Myrkulite)
whatever other members you want. Although a Bard/Dirgesinger would probably fit here, too...
This is all conjecture, but I hope it helps.
/d |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 20:21:02
I also figured I'd add a decent amount of npcs that already had class levels that began to worship him, some of them eventually adding cleric levels. Maybe good necromancers, rangers who hunt undead, & a few priests from other religions that see this fitting them better. As I figure the church needs some people that aren't young and inexperienced, even if they don't have high levels in the priest class. I used these ideas for the 8 members of the temple of Kelemvor I created just outside Baldar's Gate.
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| wintermute27 |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 14:31:33
I always think of this bit from Faiths and Pantheons:
quote:
Members of the clergy tend to be taciturn, even morose at times. Many came to the church after losing loved ones to undead incursions, or even dying themselves and being so profoundly touched by the experience that they enrolled in the clergy shortly after returning to life. Many of the older members of the clergy once worshiped Myrkul, and even fourteen years after the deity's destruction, some have difficulty coming to grips with the doctrinal differences between the two faiths.
I would think that among the clergy of Myrkul, there are some who joined for similar reasons and they would be the ones who went over to Kelemvor, while some of the "darker" clerics would have stuck with "Cyruk". I do think that having the clergy of Kelemvor be small makes a lot of sense, as he is a new god at the time and I'm sure there weren't many priest of "Cyruk" who wanted to change religions (so to speak) that soon after adjusting to the new order. Also, I imagine that some worshipers (gravesite caretakers, mourners, and the like) wouldn't be too keen on Cyrics other activities and dogma. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 00:36:16
Myrkul is my favorite god in FR, I know a lot about him. I understood all the points you brought up before you mentioned them. And I do agree alignment does not have to play the largest role, that wasn't my disagreement. From having a strong understanding of Myrkul, I just do not see his priests in any large numbers following Kelemvor. I've already written up the 8 npcs I was posting this thread about, none of them were former priests of Myrkul. I think there certainly would be a few that changed but not many. Given my dislike of that idea, just poor writing IMO, I'm going to opt for having Kelemvor's faith be mainly made up of low level priests with converts from other random religions filling it at the high points.
As I'm running in the Western Heartlands, a place Kelemvor is strong and will be starting the game is DR 1368, I wanted to put some thought into how his church should look. I'm guessing the whole timeline of the game will be 1368 through the early to mid 1380s. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 22:17:24
Oh, I don't know. Let's not forget that undeath was only part of Myrkul's portfolio before he was made extinct and transferred to the Crown of Horns, and a relatively small one, at that (necromancy was never part of his portfolio, strictly speaking, if you look at the description in the successive sources: Faiths and Avatars lists his portfolio as "The dead, wasting, decay, corruption, parasites, old age, exhaustion, dusk, autumn." No necromancy.
His main responsibility was to act as the judge of the dead, and a great number of his priests ("great number" being relative, of course) were not involved in raising hordes of undead, but just in putting the dead in the ground and keep them there. It's true that this aspect of Myrkul and his priesthood never drew much attention in novels and adventures (after all, where's the adventure in fighting an "undertaker-priest", whose main goal in life is to provide the recently deceased with a decent burial).
For priests who follow this pattern, following one god with the same portfolio as the other one will not make a colossal difference (the difference between Kelemvor and Myrkul-god-of-the-dead are somewhat overstated). Myrkul's bad rep comes mostly from his role during the avatar crisis (which, you can argue, actually goes against how the deity was originally written up; much like the Avatar series had some other characters, like Storm Silverhand, behave in ways different from the original conception).
Also, too much is being made of alignment, especially when it comes to alignment relating to religion. Portfolio tends to prevail over alignment - good characters appeasing Beshaba, or evil characters invoking Tymora for good luck... In the "Ask Ed" thread (not sure when, but I think is was 2009), there's a couple of answers (either from Ed or from THO) providing insight in how the religions and the priests in FR work (in particular the story of the Priestess of Bane who also paid homage to Ilmater). |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 20:13:27
No, I've seen that. It just looks kind of sloppy to me, I wouldn't think that very many of them would have switched from necromancy to a god of fighting undead. It's hard to buy. I was hoping that someone could come up with something a bit better than that. I have a great deal of trouble buying that even 10% of Myrkul's priests now follow a god that is so totally different that their former lord. It seems like hastily done sloppy writing, if there were so many followers of Myrkul in the faith and all of them were the high priests. The religion would quickly develope a radical myrkul like herasy. Just from looking at that by the year 1369 every single priest of Kelemvor's that was over 1st level would have been a followers of myrkul. So how could that possible work?
I think I'm just going to have followers from other religions come over to Kelemvor for the game I'm planning. The actual building I'm going to use will have been a former temple of Myrkul and then cyric, but the priests will be different. I'm thinking of having the temple cleared out by followers of Torm around the time Kelemvor becomes a god and one of those priests having visions from Kelemvor. He'll end up coming over and setting the temple up, I'll bring in two more recruits from other gods and a 4 or 5 new priests. Maybe one of them having been a member of a different class and the others just start at first level. I'm putting the temple just outside of Baldar's Gate, as that's be my main city and I have a lot of ideas for this temple. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 07:52:02
Extract from Faiths and Avatars, p. 85:
"In addition, the majority of the temples of Cyric that used to be temples of Myrkul have now switched their ways and allegiance to Kelemvor and are learning to follow him with as much fervor as they did Myrkul and Cyruk (their name for Cyric) in turn.
These old-line converts tend to be more evil in nature, hut are drifting closer to neutrality as the years pass or leaving Kelemvor and finding other deities more suited to their natures."
So most of the former clergy of Myrkul switched to Kelemvor. Philosophy seems to have been a bigger driver than alignment. |
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