| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gellion |
Posted - 23 Aug 2003 : 23:02:29
What is your opinion on the current technology level in the realms? Do you think it should stay as it is? Or do you think it should advance some. When i say technology i do not mean magical technology, like what Eberron is going to have. But actual technology.
Also i have heard that due to the mass amount of magic on Toril, that a lot of technology does not work. Lets say this were not true, and technology would still work. Do you think it would advance any? Also do you think Smokepowder should be an alchemical substance instead of magical?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lina |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 11:26:14
Another possible scenario for technology creeping into the realms would be due to merchant enterprises. Imagine if a merchant came across a gnome who's inventions actually worked. With the right sales pitch there would be gnomish tin openers, fridges and ovens popping up all over the place. Plus the merchant would be rolling in money, eventhough he would be exploiting gnomes.
If the market is available for a product or service any businessman would be a fool to pass an opportunity to make money and gain power. For example, common people without any magical talents relying more on their own skills and technology than magic due to distrust/dislike of magic and mages. If improvements in technology came into the market then we could see things like better farming practices, new food products appearing in markets, more convenient and efficient ways of travelling large distances and transporting goods. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 02:14:45
The reason why the railroad was pushed into the "Wild West" (by the way, the "cowboy" era lasted about thirty years in real life, and a fourth of them were blacks) was because it had already started in more civilized -- meaning cityfied -- areas.
In the Realms, we don't really have much of an important yet safe area for making a railroad. The Heartlands have some good spots -- especially in Cormyr -- but overall things aren't so good. I'd expect a real push for very smooth roads first, something like the asphalt roads we have today. Then cut those roads through hills -- less tiring on the horses if they don't have to go up and down. And then people will start thinking about other things. Perhaps actual railroads, but traveled by horse-drawn wagon. It requires standardization (or variable-guage axels, if you've got someone inventive), but it was used like that in our own history. Or, back on the roads, an industrial-strength Tenser's floating disk lifting the wagon, leaving the horse to only worry about forward momentum. (One would need a special fixed harness, of course, so that the wagon wouldn't bump into the horse when you stop.)
As for the statues, you can make intelligent items with only a few thousand gold. One thousand will give you the three mental ability scores (two at 12, one at 10) as well as vision and hearing and a maximum of one special power (paid for separately). Four thousand is the minimum to give speech.
These rules are normally for held items, but I don't see why they can't be used for other things. This is one way to make the level of magic rise, of course, as you normally have less than 1% of all magic items as intelligent. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 02:10:17
Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog has machine type creations in the back of it. BUT, yes there is a BUT! One, both the 1e and 2e box sets say a lot of machines from Earth or based on Earth type of things will not work in FR because of magic. Two, the gods would restrict such things as would the clergy of said gods and so would mages. Like Khelben and smokepowder. Ed has also said repeatedly this is what the clergy does for diseases, etc, they give false info or spread info that is wrong.... |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 01:52:48
Bookwyrm, you said that because of the sociopolitical nature of the Realms things like the 'lightning rail' wouldn't work.
I agree, at least, as things stand now.
Faerun is in a state that seems to me to be very much like a mixture of the early Renaissance, (minus the science) and the dark ages. You have the enlightenment in regards to values and the political makeup of the realms is about as fractured as Europe in those times, maybe more when you add in magic and monsters.
So magitech like Ebberron would be cool for the realms but it can't happen yet, just like you said. But give it a few generations, and there may be enough people to just overwhelm the wilds and set the stage for a magical industrial revolution.
And as for magitech itself.. well..
Faerun already has golems, but they are expensive. What if a Lantanese engineer could make something like Da Vinci's mechanical man? That was more or less pulleys and gears. Cast a permanent animate object spell, and it can move. Now you have an automaton. Now there is no way for the realms for a long time to have these things be intelligent like droids or warforged. but you could have first generation warforged (as though their evolution did not come from weapons) as such a device with some kind of intelligence bound into a crystal or phylactery to allow the body sentient thought.
I was also reading into a Steampunk book i downloaded, and they have what they call an Analytical Machine, which is a mechanical computer that actually was designed by a guy named Babbage. Now, it can only think using punch cards, but with magic you could bypass that and give it true AI, maybe even make it small enough to fit on a ship or in a castle and it could control all of the defenses itself (but that leads to a whole new slew of problems).
But, even though our own railroads were built during a time of conflict, they survived. Just think for a moment of the cinematic power and irony you could have if you had lightning rail coaches from Waterdeep to Silverymoon, and on the way they are attacked by trolls or goblinoids. It would be like an Indian raid on a steam locomotive! Such things could cause the realms to leapfrog over Ebberron and have a kind of medieval wild west setting which could be cool, or it could take it all to hell. Hopefully it would be the former. |
| Gellion |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's part of the premise of a book from Baen, called Tinker. (It's also on a Baen Free Library CD, so I can give a copy to anyone who wants to read an electronic version.) In that, Philadelphia of a few decads from now exists in Faerie for all but one day of the month, as a side effect of a device the Chinese put in orbit to transport ships to another star. The main character is a certified Science Genius Girl ( ) who figured out ways to combine magic and normal technology.
Good book. Not Realmslore, of course, but it's an example of what you were talking about.
I have seen that book at my nearby Barnes & Noble. Hehe, I will have to see if I can still find it. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:13:56
That's part of the premise of a book from Baen, called Tinker. (It's also on a Baen Free Library CD, so I can give a copy to anyone who wants to read an electronic version.) In that, Philadelphia of a few decads from now exists in Faerie for all but one day of the month, as a side effect of a device the Chinese put in orbit to transport ships to another star. The main character is a certified Science Genius Girl () who figured out ways to combine magic and normal technology.
Good book. Not Realmslore, of course, but it's an example of what you were talking about. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 22:24:19
The deciding factor may not be the ability to produce or discover new technological methods, but if these methods will be cheaper/easier than those of magic. Should mages develop a more efficient means of crafting magical items, I doubt tech will increase much. If not, then some kind of co-existence will ensue, with tech being the tool of the common man and magic becoming used for more (not to be redundant) mystical things, such as healing, teleportation, and so on. I like the idea of technology that uses enchanted materials, and spelltech has some opportunities. Science could actually advance faster with the aid of mojo, forming a symbiotic relationship. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:52:55
That makes sense, Bookwyrm.
Magitech can be in realms to my likings but it is far away at least for two or three centuries.
And magitech is a much better term than technology in realms.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:27:09
That wasn't actually what I was saying.
On the one hand, as mentioned, war means progress, at least in a brute-force sense. World War I started out with the automobile as the toy of the rich. It ended with it as a weapon of war and on its way to being a common machine. For something like this to happen in the Realms, you need tons of RSEs and some very inventive people.
On the other, peace is needed for other things. As I said, you can't build a railroad, or a lightning rail, connecting Waterdeep and Silverymoon in the present-day Realms. You would need to first tame every stretch of land between the two cities, or your enemies would just sabotage it. It only takes a little section to toss a train moving at thirty miles an hour, whether you use a railroad or a lightning rail. Would it happen a lot? No, but the threat would keep people from using it at all, which means it's suddenly not cost-effective.
Now, on to the other thing you both seem to have missed. Magic isn't stagnant. It moves up and down, and there are many powerful spells that used to be known by Netheril that can't be used anymore. (I still maintain that epic spells are forbidden in the Realms, but that's another topic.) However, we also have a more codified system of magic now. It's still an Art, but it's also on the way to being, if not a science, then a craft.
Unless the gnomes outpace things, which is possible, then in the future it's not unlikely that magic will be further simplified. This would make way for cheaper magic items, so perhaps instead of modern pistols, you might have small rods (as anyone can use a rod) of a lesser orb-type spell, where you could fire single-shot orbs out of "magazines" made of some spell-storing crystal. When it's depleted, you stick in another crystal and go back to firing. For something like an AK-47, you could use one at caster level 5 (or less, if things get simpler that way too) to fire a three-orb burst. Full auto-fire can't be described under the current rules for D&D, but for that you just have to go to d20 Modern.
Then there are countless ways to make other conveniences we ourselves have today. Prestidigitation-enchanted items would make for just about any cleaning tool -- the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner, for instance, or a dish washing machine. Items enchanted with whispering wind would make for cell phones, especially if you have a central location to route calls -- which, handily, is what is used in the modern world. Or, perhaps, enchant crystals to be placed into a larger device using magic mouth -- stereos, anyone? Add silent image and you've got a televison.
Regardless of how fast the gnomes work, magic will be the first thing that anyone in the Realms will think of when they look for doing something an easier way. And with places like the Lady's College in Silverymoon, we'll be getting more wizards than we might have had since Netheril. Every wizard will want to cast a good old fireball, but where's the money in that? It's really only good on a battlefield, and you can't cast it in Silverymoon anyway, not without a token.
If you go to the Lady's College to learn a profession -- and while there are a lot of adventurers, especially the get-rich-quick crowd, there'll be plenty looking for stability rather than danger -- the best bet is in the service side of things. Scribing scrolls doesn't help much, but potions can be used by anyone -- that makes for a good business. (Selling potions of eagle's splendor to rich teenagers -- or adults -- would likely be a common thing. It's easier to get to work than tricking someone into drinking one of charm person.) Then there are other things -- as guards, for instance. A sixth-level wizard with Extend Spell can cast a 24-hour alarm spell and use arcane lock on a safe. Or in a support capacity -- imagine using enlarge person on multiple workers (or mass enlarge person, if at least seventh level), enabling them to load or unload a boat at the docks that much faster. And don't forget casting resist energy [fire]] on someone trying to clear out a burning building.
I could go on with more "normal" ways of using wizard spells, but you get the idea. And with more people using these in everyday life, the novelty will wear off and people will be expecting it all the time -- or, alternatively, there won't be enough wizards to go around. Either way, research will begin to create more spells -- either easier ones, ones that do more, or ones that use the same amount of energy to do something with a more narrow focus. As that goes on, you'll start getting into "magitech." Rather like Eberron. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:21:02
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
In order for saltpeter or petrolium to be rare, you have to change a lot of things about the environment. Saltpeter shows up in places of high nitrification. It's rock salt! How can you not have rock salt? As for petrolium, that's a geological process acting on organics in areas of marsh or swamp over millions of years. In order not to have petrolium, you would need either no marshes, or no marshes until recent history, or a level of geological shake-up that would preclude the survival of any sort of "normal" life.
As for your comment about the Weave being weak on Earth, I'd go a bit farther and say it doesn't exist there. Or anywhere but Toril. The "Weave" is a formalized, ordered structure that makes up magic in this setting. It doesn't just mean "magic."
I cannot agree you more, Bookwyrm about the phsical facts. But there are several kingdoms like Cormyr, Sembia and in a very short time Tethyr. I remind you that in USA I think after civil war inspite of the bandits the construction of the railroads continued. And even in most chaotic times of medieval times around 14th century, the Ottoman empire was using canons. And if I m not mistaken when the musketeers are used for infantry Europe was not a stable and pieceful continet.
My point is technology should have advanced in Toril to this day. It didn't for there is no place for tech in realms because of the concept of magic and swords. And it will not in the future. I don't want no firearms, tanks or nukes in realms and I don't want the idea of their being in the future. I wat to believe that realms is a differnt place than earth and I don't want it to become one.
There can be other words where tech and magic can embrace each other but Fearun is not the one.
We can argue about why tech didn't advance but we can't argue how it will. Maybe physic rules work differently there and saltpeper is not a material that can be found that easily. There can be as many reasons as man can imagine but I rather accept that the rules of physics work different in Fearun and that is the effect of the weave. Therefore tech will not advance and things will stay as they are. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 12:19:03
Indeed. Without the use of increasingly repetitive RSes, technology will rise eventually, it is just a matter of deciding how long we are willing to delay it. We could always put a hit out on Lantan and whack it Atlantis style... but that would slow down the progresss oftechnology to a fair degree... until it's secrets were recovered by successive generations of seekers.
In the end, tech will come to faerun, and personally, I want to see what the realms would look like in the Industrial, Information, and Fusion/Gravity ages.
Just not today. |
| Lina |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 10:12:22
Bookwyrms right there. Unless magic started dwindling like it did in the later dragonlance novels technology would have to start taking over. Or if there was a population boom of every race in faerun then gnomish inventions would take precendence over use of magic to cater to everyones needs. There would be limited resources and limited space which cannot be readily solved through the use of magic on a long-term basis and improvements in technology would be the only solution to the need of a growing population. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 07:46:28
Technological change will happen the way it does with Eberron. Mystra will encourage this, most likely, since it's what her predecessor was doing, spreading magic around so it isn't just in the hands of an elite few the way it was in Netheril. (Frankly, I like that as a reason why magic items seem to be all over the place waiting for an adventuring party comes along.)
You also have to consider, though, that unless we have constant RSEs this won't happen quickly. Many people (including the Harpers) are conservative, and I don't mean the political term. It's people like that who outlawed smokepowder, citing how dangerous it is and how easily it destroys even by accident. Many people simply don't trust the new and different, not because they can't change but because they have no experience with it. Also, unlike Eberron, the Realms is somewhat chaotic. Eberron had a large kingdom, with a stable-ish society, to build the magic "railroad." The Realms can't support anything like the lightning rail as it stands, because brigands are too dangerous between cities and the lines too difficult to protect from sabotage. The same goes for the "wireless telegraph" idea I mentioned long ago on this same thread, which I noted would be easy to disrupt and/or tap into. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:46:48
Look, the only options we have here is to either admit the realms has a limited lifespan as we know them, and eventually technology will proceed much as it did on earth, and just adapt it, play in the past, or move on with the times. Or, we use any of a number of heavy handed illogical methods to keep them at the level of technology, of them, saying "because a god says so" seems to be as good as any other.
it's like just shrugging and saying "a wizard did it" whenever you see something weird, but hey, it works. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:09:41
In order for saltpeter or petrolium to be rare, you have to change a lot of things about the environment. Saltpeter shows up in places of high nitrification. It's rock salt! How can you not have rock salt? As for petrolium, that's a geological process acting on organics in areas of marsh or swamp over millions of years. In order not to have petrolium, you would need either no marshes, or no marshes until recent history, or a level of geological shake-up that would preclude the survival of any sort of "normal" life.
As for your comment about the Weave being weak on Earth, I'd go a bit farther and say it doesn't exist there. Or anywhere but Toril. The "Weave" is a formalized, ordered structure that makes up magic in this setting. It doesn't just mean "magic." |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 23:10:55
I always thought that weave is very weak in earh so magic was not strong and common as it is in Fearun and I imagined that ones who master magic has incredible power according to normal peasants. And since they are the smartest population of their race they didn't need to advance in tech and they didn't want that too because tech allows standart peasant to be as lethal and sometimes more than wizards. But that's my thinking which matters nothing.
I don't like the idea of tech in realms because that will ruin all the mediavel concept. But I find the idea of never advancing tech stupid.
Thus I offer a point to compromise;
There are no enough saltpeter, oil or plutoniom in realms. There are some but it is not adequte to arm tens of generations all over the Fearun.
There are some but it is too expensive to mine or get in means of chemistry. Mages use them and they know there are not infinite sources so they keep those to themselves. And the level of education in realms is much worse than Bengaldesh. The ones who know how to read eventhough they are interested in physics and genuies like Newton, are unable to find a place to sharpen their intersts.
But of course there are people who are bright, wealthy and not consumed by magic and power. They look to the stars, inverstigate the movements of the planets, experiment with various elements and understand physics and chemistry. But how can they achieve anytinhg when their whole life practice and work can become meaningless in a few minutes when the royal mage finishes his spell of clarvoyancy or creates a lethal fireball.
To conclude, I believe Fearun is differnt then our world in many aspects and there are not enough saltpeter as well as many other materials in Fearun like there are not any metal in the realm of Dark Sun but if a crazy adventurer finds a place where saltpeter is like grass on the plains his patron would be a powerful enemy to anyone if he finds out how to use that material. But that resource would be limited and magic would be like infinite. Thus, for economical reasons wizards wielding fireball wands would be more benefitial than an army of masketeers. Therefor technology of fire arms will not be improved.
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| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 13:37:11
Yeah, a Gnome commitee would be some kinda hell.
But since my last post I have become far more well read on the subject. And my technophilia has somewhat abated. However, its still there. For instance, in my campaign, the current setting is comparable to Earth c. 1870's, plus magic. So you have soldiers with rifles and repeaters, and less armor, but armor still exists. The main reason for this is that even with technology, magic still exists. For me, both magic and tech advanced and now the world has factories, and steamships, but like has been suggested here, magical telegraphs and lightning rails like from Eberon (God those are so cool). The reason for this is mainly because I saw a documenatary on the era on the History channel and I was intrigued at the possiblities.
But thats my world. And its about to go through a whole lotta fun...
As for Faerun, Since I bought the campaign setting, and gawked for endless hours over the Geography section, I have come to the realization that tech isn't so bad as it is now, and really isn't important in the whole scheme of things.
I mean when the Amnians invaded Maztica, they had conquistidor-esque equipment, minus guns, and they did alright. Had they guns, they would have done better, but when an entire city turns into monsters and attacks you, well. Guns or no guns, "You gonna die!". As for hte Gondish things, those aren't described as that advanced. They are, after all, mostly mechanical devices that are relatively simple in operation (by our standards at least). And from revalations about the Cleric Quintet from a friend of mine, much that comes out of Lantan, especially, the Gondish Priests, aren't much liked on the mainland Faerun.
But, at Crecy, the English had bombards, and that was the 1300's (i think). In the Legacy of the Drow, a pirate ship had one too.
I think that tech will improve in the realms as WOTC or whoever is ultimately in charge (aside from Ed Greenwood) of its DND aspects decides it.
But we can all learn a lesson from Return of the King...
6000 Men on horseback with spears galloping towards an army of nearly 200000 orcs with pikes and bows is so beautiful, i teared up when i watched. (brings tears to my eyes even now.)
So Tech isn't really needed in the Realms. Mainly its less glorious until its later days anyway. So...keep the tech progression slow, and long live beautiful cavalry charges! |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 11:26:51
Hey, just be glad it's not a gnome committee, those things can take years to determine a course of action . . .
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| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 02:59:44
Well, i haven't been here for a while, but, i haven't been sitting on my rear either.
Over the last few months I have seen various documentaries about some of the simple gear driven devices of the ancient Greeks. Namely the Antikythera (SP?) device. A current theory is that it could track the location of planets, the moon, the day, time, and date. THE GREEKS MADE THIS!! Not some nineteenth century swiss man!
Even if Faerun is at a Medieval tech level, it is concievable, and totally logical for such devices to have existed or to exist today.
Mournblade referenced how in his campaigns, his ships are advanced (Clippers w/o guns). Do some of you realize the math and science that are necessary for such a complex arrangement of canvas? You might notice that before gunpowder, ships were small, slow, and blocky, and also downright ugly. It was the need for speed that accompanied the advanced weapons that evolved ships to their modern state, so without guns, how might you have clipper ships eh? Where would the physics and math originate from? In a magic world like Toril, they can't! You'd have to rely on magic sails for extra speed.
Bookwyrm mentioned how technology could be stagnated by the many species in FR, but wouldn't conflicts advance it? With a 10000 year history, and a conflict ridden history, it is amazing that they still are in the middle ages, magic or no magic!
Someone mentioned how peace propagates technological development, true, to an extent. War is really what invigorates science, not healthy peaceful science, mind you, but science none the less. It is the peace after the war where technology grows by leaps and bounds, and in periods of cold war technology grows faster due to the arms races and such.
This was the longest winded thing i've said for some time.
But one more thing.
I'm sorry ahead of time for bringing up a totally different genre, but in the recent Star Wars books, the New Jedi order, they have killed off Chewbacca   and Anakin Solo (Han and Leia's third kid, after the twins, Jacen and Jaina). How did they do this, BY COMMITEE!
Perhaps that is why Toril is advancing, albiet slowly, the authors aren't making it up, a COMMITEE IS! THE HUMANITY!
Ciao.
-Jaysen Darclyght-
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| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 19 Dec 2003 : 23:03:01
walkie-talkies are great players cannot kill a guard and go on easily then.I thought telepathical ring for that purpose but I thouht those kind of rings are very rare and I gave up
AmI wrong can these telepathy rings be with every patrol team captain? maybe in only a very important castle or a vip's domain captains may have those? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 08:41:41
I've been thinking of a particular granade-like weapon my brother made for one of his first books. It was . . . highly effective in clearing the walls of the Hermit's Peak fortress during a seige.
I also thought that it would be possible to make a magical version of a walkie-talkie. Very expensive, of course, but perhaps not as much as it would seem at first.
Perhaps now that I've got some more free time I can sit down and work up some specs for those. I'll have to add a warning (Think Before Use) to that second one, though. |
| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 21:29:33
You are absolutely right about even small technological changes will encourage others. This is I agree and this is the most normal thing, for instance population is increasing thus there will be much more consumption and will be needed more production. This is a very acceptible logic.However as you said it will destroy the whole setting.
But the one thing I disagree is people will advance faster than you said especially in weaponary. Gond thought people how to make gunpowder, but people are smart enough to improve that to make hand cannons. If that was in a very isolated and lesser compatetive region such as Kara_Tur(like china) that wouldn't be a great deal but it is known in Heartlands and I believe in north.Imagine if one crazy man invented a more easily and effective used arquebus and one nation gets that info and starts to make more to make an army, wouldn't that info encourages other nations to steal or improve that tech. Gunpowder in far east hasn't been improved for maybe a 1000 year but it took only a couple of centuries to make panzers.
Some small magic bound techs would spice up the game though, such as simpler crystalballs for comunacation or grenedes made by explosives(they both are used).The thing I m unconfortable is a big change or illogical stability.Tech should be bound to magic to keep it all going well.
The only thing is keeping the balance or setting will be a mess
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 17:25:55
That senario reminds me of the one in that of-quoted story of mine. (I know I mention it too much, but it's such a good example -- and hey, I'm an expert on this particular world. ) Except that after the Great War, even high technology is seen as dangerous. That doesn't mean that people destroy mundane stuff that they've lived with; it means that the current level becomes stagnant. If it's new and different, it's not good. (Sort of the opposite of modern America, no?)
For example, a guy in what would be Switzerland in our world invented the steam engine for pretty much the same reason that it was developed in Scotland in the real world. However, the locals decided that the inventor had summoned a demon (or other spirit, if they were feeling charitable) into the Cold Iron prison of the machine. (Hey, it was smoking and chuffing.) They lynched him and pushed the machine over a cliff.
As for gunpowder, it's known, as I said. It's considered highly dangerous in Europe for much the same reasons as in the Realms, but some countries do have arquebus units; and gunpowder is easy to make, if you know how, so it's hard to stamp out anyway.
In Asia, it's the dominant form of warfare, filling in where there isn't enough magic to go around. The Cantonese (Chinese) and Nipponese (Japanese) are duking it out like France and England, and with such a large front (each have colonies stretching to Australia, and Nippon is close to finding New Zealand) gunpowder is filling a very large power vacuum.
Now we come to the issue of the Realms. I don't think that smokepowder weapons will ever be useful there until a situation like in my story arises. That is, until magic is no longer enough to fill the needs of a nation's military goals.
It's simple enough. Just like it's proving hard to develop alternative energy sources here, due to how cheap gasoline is to supply (in comparison to the cost of R&D over the next decade or so, plus development of the necessary infrastructure), smokepowder won't be a common tool of war in the Realms until supply and demand for battle magic becomes radically different.
Smokepowder is barely up to the way it was used in The Lord of the Rings. It's essentially a volatile (al)chemical powder that has no use but to blow things up. As far as I know, most people don't know about gunpowder weapons in the Realms, though rifles exist.
Which is stupid. The first use of gunpowder weapons as a projectile would be either as a rocket or a cannon. The first is easier to make, the second more destructive at a low tech base. Hand-cannons wouldn't be around for some time. It's been what, less than a decade since Gond taught Faerunians about smokepowder? There's no way that hand-cannons should be in use in that short a time. Grenades, sure. Not personal weapons. It's just a matter of logic. Unless Gond taught them how to make them as well, no one will think about it for a while. It took the Chinese a lot longer to go from simple gunpowder to rockets, and Europeans to go to cannon and then guns (shorter than the first stage, sure, but longer than a decade).
Okay, so anyone can use rifles, whereas few people can use wands. But do you actually understand what it is? It's something that has a high likelyhood of blowing your face off. Faced with that, grenades are more likely as an acceptable adventurer's weapon, and even then only in certain situations. It's most certainly not a "Hey, this could be cool to use" tool. It's probably more cost-effective to hire a mage if you really need the firepower.
As for other industrial tools . . . sure, railroads and such would be useful. But magical propulsion would be the first thing a Faerunian would think of, not steam power. The basic physics of the world have to be about the same as Earth -- this I maintain. But with the extra variable of magic, you need to remember that if it's not powered by magic, muscles, wind, or water, then it's going to take a true "out-of-the-box" thinker to come up with it.
I think that it's far more likely to think of a "technological" Faerun as based on magic, not electricity like ours. Think, for instance, of a connection between important cities (say, Waterdeep and Silverymoon) where "pulses" are registered at each end in a sequence. It's a magical telegraph, folks, and without any pesky wires. Perhaps a few booster stations (like signal towers) would be needed, but it would be harder to knock out than real telegraphs were. (No lines to knock down in a storm, and the stations would surely be guarded.)
Only a very low caster level would be needed for this; it's akin to bursts of static. No need for reproduction of voices (though that would still be possible for important messages), so the power requirement would be very low. It would be easier to tap into than telegraphs were; it would be as easy as tapping into an unscrambled cell call today. Even so, non-sensitive information would travel very quickly. This would be very useful for the Lord's Alliance, don't you think?
But I doubt that many DMs would want this. Something like this is pretty small, but it opens the way for other advances. It begins, in essance, to destroy the setting. Not as much as "normal" technology would, of course, but it starts to change it. Mages would have pretty assured jobs in the future, of course, though they'd probably have to go get degrees in order to get them. |
| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 22:51:17
Everything is possible among planes. Nevertheless there are planets with different atmospheres as Sage said and it is discussed if there can be intelegent species that are adapted to other atmospheres. It is known that there is a bug kind of thing living in about 3000 degrees celsius.
But in Toril physic laws seem to be the same as the earth. However if it is not what differences there are, it must be clear. Simply if it is like as it seems every technological improvement is possible in a acceptable period of time and those change the whole Toril.
I think the atomic theory or the basics of chemistry and mechanics are not different than ours so everything is possible.
I also think gunpowder(an example of modern tech) is normal to be found in Kara-Tur cause Chines invented it a long time ago but that knowlage in fearun is not a very good idea it is lethal and it can be improved very fast in this very compatitive region just as after the gun powder discovered by the western civilization.
I want to say laws of physics is not a problem in Toril maybe in planscape(I don't know anything about it) and other planes but Toril is very alike to our world(it is not nesecery but after those books my impresion is that way) and the advanced science is optional depending on social balances, existing knowlage and needs of governing and simple people.
Possible scenerio battle between gods destroys the half of the world and many gods. Ao stands still as he was everytime. The faith starts to fade because of that destruction and people start to think the gods as powerful wizards of some sort.Because of that they turn agains wizardy and hunt them some hide, some die, some flee. After several centuries in a time of no magic and no gods tech starts to be discovered to help people's needs
I like Toril this way and we are smart people and capable of evaluating the status of toril.Sth have to be adjusted to keep that logical.I can play a mediaval campaign or 18th century campaing as well as starwars campaign.I like all of them and I won't to see no changes in any that spoil the basics
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 12:46:07
Some good points Edain .
You said -
quote:
...However, certain basic parallels must exist. Really, only hte most basic of things are necessary, like breathing air, and even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause...
I'm glad you added the 'even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause', because as we both know, there are some outer planes without any breathable (oxygen) atmospheres whatsoever.
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| sabre |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 10:15:48
I dont say that hightech should involve in Toril but in my own campaign some nations have already found smokepowder,steam engine and firearms as cannons(they could not make more complex weapons such as muskets yet).and a railroad is a question of time.I didnt decide where to build it but some of my npcs found the exact technology.
I think that a little technology such as rilroad,steam engine ships or cannons will spice up games a little.Think about it a horde of barbarian orcs are assaulting a well armed with canons and muskets regulars of say such as cormyrian...
If you remember about arcanum it was fun. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 04:46:48
The unfortunate thing here, is we are all constricted by the term "laws of physics" when refereing to basic concepts like gravity and fire. Honestly, the parallels between the real world and a fantasy world do not have to be many, Planescape is a good example. However, certain basic parallels must exist. Really, only hte most basic of things are necessary, like breathing air, and even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause. However, there should always be an anchor. Even a basic one.
Also, I top hats, but only if I am wearing a bowtie. |
| Jander Sunstar |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 23:32:47
I simply sat that fearun is a land of sword and magic.
However that path can be changed
For many tears wise and smart people learned and tought magic to their succesors but after the invention of gunpowder they may thing that improved arms could be a better use in battle.
However if we look to our own world we can easily see a certain competion between two rivals (as SSUR and USA) and thousands years of collected knowlage of the most inteligent and wisest man the world
If we accept the certain terms of physics and the materials existed in fearun many of the inventions can be real
BUT where is the big competion and the forsaken magic.
Well, competion is everywhere as it was as in or worls over thousandes of years. But nearly geniuses to make change use magic and they wont give that power so easily. It will need many years for scholars to focus on tech instead of other issues. Therefore everything is possible After that it will be imposible for civilized societise to make high level fighter(tops 5th level)
But there needs to be lots of changes that includes many centuries.
Those are only because of a simle reason that fearun and such worlds are not created for that reason. We can simply spoil what we have and love or we can improve it |
| RogueAssassin |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 21:07:42
personally i think smoke powder in the realms is not all that bad. Pistols and flinltlock rifles seem simple when compared to the magics of the elves and the enginuity of the gnomes. I mean whats a pistol got againts a fireball or a experianced swing of the axe or sword? i can understand a low lvl character using a weapon like this but 1d10 points of damage isnt that great when compared to a lvl 5 wizards fireball or lightining bolt. I do think however that damage for ranged weapons should be somehow changed, though i like the simplicity of it. A well placed arrow can drop anyone. there should be a option or feat like power attack for ranged weapons where you can take from your ac or lose your next turn to maximize damage.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 17:32:31
Nah, a top hat would look better with that avatar. A fedora would make it look like Cult the Demon 'Unta -- crik-ay, moit! (Sincere appologies to Sage, Lina, Bluntman, and all other non-annoying Australians.)
Of course, fedoras are cool anyways. Both my active characters wear them. For the first, I wanted a "different" look for a half-elven wizard. For the second . . . well, you almost have to have a fedora with a swashbuckler-like character!  |
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