| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilithyia |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 01:30:15
My friends and I will be playing a gestalt Waterdeep based campaign for 3.5, integrating a lot of the non-FR books. So far, not much trouble except that one player wants to be a dread necromancer.
However, is being an undead actually illegal? Given its Waterdeep, I am not entirely sure if anyone made a law against it as it could have occurred already. This is important, because another one of the players will be a cleric of Helm, and upholding the city's laws.
Secondly, would good or neutral religions have a problem with the continued existence of a neutral aligned undead? The undead in question will most likely be a (not terribly devout) follower of Finder Wyvernspur, not some sort of necromancy god. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 22:47:33
Hey Mace, if yer thirsty, there's an Unknown Tavern in Waterdeep that has all ya can drink stout... for free! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 00:22:14
Words from Ed, in regards to Kelemvor and good-aligned undead:
quote:
No, no, gomez! "PokéBall" is what * I * do to YOU.
Ahem.
Realms relevance? Oh, yes ...
bradhunter, Knight of the Gate, and other interested scribes: Ed has confirmed that his view still stands: Kelemvor (and by his instruction, his clergy) ignore baelnorn. That is, they do not treat them as undead to be destroyed, and deal with them only as necessary; polite avoidance and minimal contact is best (and being as Ed is the creator of baelnorn, he's by definition the go-to expert on them).
According to Ed, archliches are regarded as undead to be aided in achieving their task/mission and then cajoled to "pass on" into true death rather than hanging around; archliches who disagree, or who have established "unfulfillable" or really long-term tasks or missions for themselves, are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis (i.e. Kelemvor, working through his servants as proxies, wants to truly understand the motivation and natures of each individual archlich before deciding on a policy towards each particular archlich).
I grinned at that and sent Ed a "weasel, weasel, weasel" tease, and he replied:
Weasel, of course. :} Yet on the other hand: why not? Herein lies the sort of roleplaying that should be at the heart and core of every long-running D&D campaign. So long as the DM arranges it so that players, through their characters, have a chance to govern/substantially influence outcomes, rather than being reduced to spectators of the DM's acting out events.
So saith Ed. Here endeth the latest word from the Greenwood.
love to all,
THO
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 22:08:48
quote:
Originally posted by Eilithyia
And if Kelevmor disapproves of undead for extending life times, what of mages who do the same thing with other means?
Breaking semi-silence again, Kelemvor only has a problem with un-DEAD, mages and others who use potions retain their aliveness... no conflict there, unless the dude is a practicing necromancer with an army of undead... but that's a given.
back to the alehouse... cheers |
| Eilithyia |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 22:03:27
While a Dread Necromancer does not become a lich, fluff-wise they start the process at level 2 when they gain the Lich Body class feature for DR. So I guess they are merely undead-ish? I am actually unsure when they start looking like an undead.
Mechanically, they are not the undead type, but might start being treated as such for being undead-ish beforehand.
The Dread Necromancer will not be raising undead, at least not where anyone (Including the other PCs) can see them. I'm going to go on a limb here and believe that doing it publicly is a really bad idea to say in the least.
And if Kelevmor disapproves of undead for extending life times, what of mages who do the same thing with other means?
Everyone's replies have been very helpful, so thanks for all of your help! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 21:28:22
quote:
Originally posted by Eilithyia
Exactly which law is that, so we can attempt to work on a loophole?
I believe he's talking about how Kelemvorites can't stand undead creatures. It's written into their dogma to destroy the undead, so basically an undead creature has broken Kelemvor's divine "suffer no undead to unlive" law.
In my own research about Waterdeep, I have no printed law saying it is illegal to *be undead in the city limits,* nor have I read a law saying it is illegal to *make use of undead* either. Someone who is openly undead (or dragon, or demon, etc.) will naturally be treated with more suspicion and scrutiny than an elf or a dwarf, but generally it's your actions--not your state of being--that determines how you are treated by the law. Different NPCs or clergies will, of course, have their own prerogatives (like Kelemvorites, for instance), and I doubt undead can expect equal protection under Waterdahvian law.
(For instance, if presented the choice between saving a baby from a burning building, or saving a blood-sucking vampire from a tavern full of angry commoners with stakes, which would your average watchman do?)
Also, as the tidbit from Waterdeep and the North pointed out, regardless of whether there is an actual law, when confronted with a clearly undead or otherwise monstrous creature, your average citizen is more likely to run or draw steel/spells first, ask questions later. I would also think it's very reasonable to assume an undead creature (PC or not) would take steps to disguise his/her undead nature, to avoid precisely those sorts of intanglements. Not being evil is a good start, but minor illusions to disguise appearance/smell/chill touch would be an excellent second step.
Also, where did the dread necromancer enter into this equation? Is the undead his/her cohort/friend, or are we talking about the same character? Because a baseline dread necromancer isn't actually undead until level 20 (unless you've worked something out earlier, like lichdom, etc).
Best of luck with your game!
Cheers |
| Eilithyia |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 21:16:58
Exactly which law is that, so we can attempt to work on a loophole? |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 21:04:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eilithyia
Also, while Kelevmorites would undoubtedly attempt to kill the PC at first, would they persist if the PC can be proven to not be evil?
Yes, because it's not an alignment that Kelemvorites worry about. They cannot tolerate undead and are required to destroy it when found.
Dude might catch a break from the Helmite, if he's not breaking any laws, but not from the Kelmvorites because to them his exsistence as an undead creature would have already broken the law. |
| Eilithyia |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 19:43:47
I was hoping for published material, to help convince the DM. I am not sure if WHY undead are evil was ever in So Saith Ed, either. In 3rd edition (Which, I believe Ed Greenwood doesn't play?), its implied that its disrespect to the dead. Has it been addressed on those archives anywhere?
Also, while Kelevmorites would undoubtedly attempt to kill the PC at first, would they persist if the PC can be proven to not be evil?
Some other factors to consider:
*The player, through he has/will died once before, is actually a living creature becoming undead.
*The process of becoming an undead may not be completely voluntary. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 03:24:48
I'm sure Ed's probably got some expansive thoughts on this Eilithyia. You could try asking him in his "Questions for Ed Greenwood [2010]" scroll here:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13186
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 03:16:23
I would say it depends on a lot of things, particularly the actions of the undead person in question. The church of Selűne obviously doesn't have a problem with the archlich running the Blushing Mermaid, since she's a devoted follower of Selűne and frequents the temple. Alathene Moonstar is also known the the Lords of Waterdeep, who consider her a force for good. |
| wintermute27 |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 02:01:57
As to the laws of Waterdeep, there is a detailed list of crimes and their usual punishment in Waterdeep and the North (TSR 9213) on pages 17-19 with no mention of "being a monster". I did find this bit, though.
quote:
Beings of almost all races may be seen in the City, too. A typical Waterdhavian would react with hostility and fear only to a drow, an illithid, an obviously unhuman native of the Lower Planes, and an armed orc (as well, of course, as “monsters” such as beholders and dragons); with all others, it’s generally “business as usual.”
-Waterdeep and the North, p.34
Although any clerics and paladins of Kelemvor the player ran across would want to "put down" the player as an abomination. Even though they are 1st and 2nd ed sourcebooks, if you can find a copy, "Volo's Guide to Waterdeep" and "Waterdeep and the North" are excellent references for any Waterdeep campaign.
Also the City System Boxed Set for the maps. I love my City system maps. |
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