| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mouse |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 12:39:59
So who here likes Bards anyway? I know in a lot of circles they're a useless class, but to be they have to be one of the most entertaining to play (hell yeah Harpers).
I think their bad rep might have something to do with their "good at nothing" stats and skill set and their "what kind of stupid power is music anyway" skill set, but I like to show up those players when i end up doing the same thing they can do, nearly as well, and do six other things at the same time.
You know what another name for a Jack-of-All-Trades is?
A competent person. |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Jan 2010 : 23:02:48
I have to agree on some of the earlier coments on bards- they are not a class for everyone, because of the reasons already mentioned. True, they do not generally do a lot of damage in combat, but their music ability can be used while fighting, which basically means that as long as you are passing the checks to keep the buffs going, you can be doing two things at once, which is better than most classes can do. If you really want to make it a better combat class, all you have to do is choose a few feats to enhance its combat abilities. Weapon Finesse and the Dodge feat line are good for this, especially once you get Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack. Give him a few levels of a PrC like dervish, and the bard can actually become quite deadly! (I play a drow bard who is like a blender on puree when he dervishes- not a heavy-hitter, per-se, but the extra attacks from the dervish dance make up for it!!) And of course, there are some really good feats and variants that can enhance spellcasting or other abilities of a bard, depending on what direction you want to go with one. Overall, I have to agree that they are one of the best all-around classes to play, as they are highly versitile and useful in almost any given situation. You can't do that with a fighter or barbarian, and druids and rangers are often out of their depth in urban combat or other urban encounters. Mages, clerics, and rogues fare well almost anywhere, but a bard can do it all! |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 22:15:03
Here is the class, I have written, with a 3.5 write up.
Scarlet Mummer
The Scarlet Mummer is an elite group of holy warriors who follow the goddess Lliira. They were created after the times of troubles to avenge the murder of Selgaunt's High Revelistress Chlanna Asjros (whom Lliirra had taken as a lover while in mortal form during the Time of Troubles) by members of a cult of Loviatar. This greatly affected the Lady of Joy, as a responce the order was formed to end the cruelty and suffering caused by the churt of Loviatar, the greatest enemy of Joy.
The class is most readily pursued by Bards, especially divine bards, or multiclassed Bards; however, the class is also pursued by multiclass Paladines of Freedom/Rogues, Cleric's of Lliira/Rogues and Rangers/Rogues.
Hit Die: d6
Requirements
To qualify to become a Scarlet Mummer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: CG
Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, and Perform (dance) 8 ranks.
Feats: Exotic Weapon (blade boot), Lliira's Blessing (p. 176, player's guide to Faerun), and Nimbus of Light (Book of Exalted Deeds).
Special: Divine patron Lliira. Must be chosen by Lliira or a member of the Scarlet Mummers who has at least 5 levels of the prestige class.
Class Skills
The Scarlet Mummers class skills are Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Religion), Move Silently, Perform (dance), Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft and Use Rope.
Class Features
All the following are class Features of the Scarlet Mummer prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Scarlet Mummer gains no weapon or armor proficiency and is banned from ever using a whip or scourage.
Sneak Attack: This functions the same as the Rogue ability.
Death Attack: As per the Assassin ability described on page 180-181 of the DM 3.5.
Graceful: Can use Dance as if it were tumble, but only for the purposes of avoiding attacks of opportunity while moving through enemies squares.
Grace Under Pressure: take 10 on all dance checks even when rushed or threatened
Hide In Plain Site: Described on page 181 of the DMG 3.5.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +2 +0 sneak attack 1d6, death attack, Graceful
2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Improved Trip
3 +2 +1 +3 +1 2d6 sneak attack, Grace Under Pressure
4 +3 +1 +4 +1 Improve Feint (use dance ranks instead of bluff)
5 +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack 3d6
6 +4 +2 +5 +2 weapon focus (blade boot)
7 +5 +2 +5 +2 sneak attack 4d6
8 +6 +2 +6 +2 Hide in plain sight
9 +6 +3 +6 +3 sneak attack 5d6
10 +7 +3 +7 +3 Whirlwind attack, Improved Critical (Blade Boot)
Each level also gets +1 level of existing spell casting class. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 21:56:31
The Mummer that I mentioned is a 10 level class write up I created. The info I found on them mentions they use the blade boot. I made the class similar to an assassin class without poison use and with a lot of dancing based abilities. They are also banned from using whips or scourages. The spells are + 1 level of Bard per level. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 17:30:31
Okay, the Scarlet Mummmer's class has been niggling at the back of my mind for a while. So here's a Prestige Class I wrote up for it. Let me know what you think!
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spellcasting
1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Mummer’s dance (1/day)
2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Lliira's Kiss +1 level to existing spellcasting class
3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Mummer's dance (2/day) +1 level to existing spellcasting class
4 +3 +1 +4 +1 +1 level to existing spellcasting class
5 +3 +1 +4 +1 Mummer's dance (3/day), +1 level to existing spellcasting class
Otto's Irresistable Dance (1/day)
Formed to avenge the murder of Lliira's High Revelmistress in Selgaunt, the Scarlet Mummers are a militant order within the Church of Joy.
Few in number and highly secretive, the Mummers hide among both clergy and the (purportedly) lay worshippers of Lliira. "Fierce Joy" is the phrase they use to reveal themselves to Lliiran priests, who both fear and revere them (and aid and obey them unhesitatingly). Some Mummers use red roses as 'calling cards' at the sites of their slayings and work and within temples and shrines of Lliira. Holding a single, cut rose has become a wordless signal of membership in the Mummers or a call for Mummers to rally to the holder of the rose and provide aid.
Role: Founded to punish the clergy of Loviatar, the Mummers have swiftly expanded their role to protecting the faithful of Lliira at revel and more solemn worship. They defend Her holy places and kill those who slaughter and oppress Lliirans. From tyrannical officials and rival clergy who seek to stamp out revelry to Loviatans who have been instructed by higher clergy (or inspired by dreams sent by Loviatar herself) to work against the Church of Joy all have cause to fear the Mummers.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become a scarlet mummer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Skills: Perform (Dance) 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 Ranks, Move Silently 8 Ranks
Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Spells: Able to cast Calm Emotions.
Special: The candidate must be sponsored by another scarlet mummer.
Class Skills
The scarlet mummer’s class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the scarlet mummer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Scarlet mummers gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bladed Boot) but do not gain any other weapon or armor proficiencies.
Mummer’s Dance (Ex): At first level, a scarlet mummer can enter into a trance-like dance during combat that is both beautiful and deadly. Once per day, as long as she moves at least ten feet, she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage. This dance lasts for a number of rounds equal to her Charsima modifier plus her levels in scarlet mummer.
At 3rd level, then again at 5th, she is able to use this ability once more per day.
Lliira’s Kiss (Su): At 2nd level, the scarlet mummer gains a morale bonus against all enchantment spells equal to her Charisma modifier.
Otto’s Irresistable Dance (Sp): At 5th level, the scarlet mummer can use the spell Otto’s irresistable Dance as a spell like ability once per day.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 03:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Where is the Scarlet Mummer class described??? I've always loved them but didn't know where any but a small amount of information was.
Beyond their reference in the "Lliira" entry of Faiths & Pantheons, there isn't much more else on the Scarlet Mummers in printed Realmslore. Though, here's a little tidbit from Ed:- "Two lore tidbits: some Mummers use a single cut red rose as a signal or badge, and they have a fluid organization (no ‘set’ hierarchy) that “stands outside” church ranks."
And Ed's provided an online Realmslore article about them here:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20061115a |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 02:16:18
Where is the Scarlet Mummer class described??? I've always loved them but didn't know where any but a small amount of information was. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 13 Jan 2010 : 00:49:55
Hmm, Bard is a problematic class to discuss since it chances so much from edition to edition. I don't play 4th so I have no idea what it looks like there. But even from 3 to 3.5 it changed a lot and it was totally different in 2nd and the 2nd version looked nothing like the 1st. So from a crunch standpoint it is hard to speak of quickly. I currently play only 3.5, with a few 3 rules added, so I'll discuss it from the standpoint of the rules I use.
First unless you take the class substitution ability which is in, I believe, player's handbook II Bardic Knack you are not a jack of all trades, you are just a character with a lot of class skills and skill points. BTW, I really like Bardic Knack, it adds that jack of all trades to a Bard character. As a player I don't really care for Bards, they play a lot like the 2nd version of a 3 level character. Yeah, they can do a lot of stuff but they are levels behind anyone else. They have some decent spells but they do not have the best cleric or mage spells, also they are maybe the hardest class in core rule book I to actually inflict a high amount of damage with. I think that has a lot to do with why people don't like them. They don't have the killer damage of rogues sneak attack, the power invoker spells of mages, the higher spell levels of clerics for their damaging spells & turn, the feats and high str of a fighter, the smite and turning and fighters BAB of a Paladine, the rage of a barbarian, the two weapon fighting and racial enemy of the ranger, the high flurry of attacks of the monk, the shape changing attacks of a druid and their animal companion. So of all the classes they end up doing the least damage, which is a problem, again I am discussing them from a crunch standpoint. They have light armor and tend to end up with a fairly low ac, couple that with the low hp and they are far from front line. In combat they are basically buffers, they do their song to get the party bonuses, cast a few buff spells and heal someone towards the end of combat, while they are not doing that they tend to take a few shots with their weapons, that don't do a lot of damage or maybe cast something to give penalties to the monsters or a hold person type spell and that is something that tends to make a character a bit of a second stringer and highly unappealing to a lot of players. Sure they give you a lot of rp ablity built in, they have magic, all the best skills, and some abilities that can be used a lot in out of combat situations, also they are built to have a good Cha and Int which helps a lot in rp.
But a lot of people try to throw that up as a defence for the class, truth is they are not "better" than other pc types for rp. Good rp is in the character concept and of course if has to be delivered by a quality player. Overall of the core base classes, Bard is my 2nd least favorite class. Fighter is my least favorite which is of course the class that gives you the least for building an interesting character, no magic, no good skills, no interesting class skills.
One of the players in my current FR game is playing a Bard 5/Scarlet Mummer 3. It is her first time playing D&D, although not her first time playing rpgs, she really likes the class and says it is her favorite. She is usful for adding spice to the game through her strong ranks of history, local and other knowledges. I really reward knowledges in my game, so she's far from the only character that has any--infact all 6 of my pcs have at least one knowledge skill. And I use her to help with the party's reputation, she's always telling people about the Company of the Fall and always trying to track down random villagers to learn more about smithing, planting, harvesting, making jewlery, sailing ships, or just looking for flowers, so she adds a lot of small details in those ways. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 20:53:05
LOL, mine's pretty witty at times too. He's also fond of making up songs on the spot about whatever the party is doing/fighting. The first time they met him, as their opponent in an arena combat match(non-lethal bout) he and his monk/wizard partner were wooping up on them while he sang an amusing little ditty about the battle(using bardic music, naturally). I called it "The Battle of the Ironhold Gladiators", and adapted the lyrics to "Gilligan's Island". I sang it in-game- it was friggin hilarious!!! |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 03:09:00
One of my players plays a cocky 4E gnomish bard. In addition to playing an instrument, she has played up the bard/minstrel's capacity for witticism by compiling a massive reserve of biting and hilarious insults. It makes for great fun at the gaming table.
Cheers, |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 23:17:32
Ah, I love bards! My new fave class, actually. I have a drow bard who is a lot of fun. I turned him into a dervish/spelldancer, which makes him especially effective on the battlefield, since he can keep singing and buffing everyone while he whirls his way through the fight, and add effects into the dance while he's at it. Add the whirlwind attack feat, lyric spell feat, and tumble and balance skills in, and he can tap-dance all over the enemies! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 17:21:14
I am reminded of how much I really want to try a Half-Elf Bard in 4E. Definately a good chance that it will be the next character I try (that or a barbarian) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 10:45:26
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Jorkens, in 3rd edition, bards cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, instead of like mages. And they could only cast to 6th level, and the selection of spells they could cast is smaller than what they were able to do so in 2e, where they penned spells into thier spellbook from scolls.
It's still an awsome class in 3.5e, and they can use mage scrolls/wands, provided they have ranks in the Use Magic Device skill.
Ah, I forgot about the whole sorcerer thing. Thanks for the information.
Come to think of it I usualy forgot spellbooks for bards anyway. |
| Daviot |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 07:22:24
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think the saying goes "Jack-of-All-Trades but a Master-of-None."
Fun fact. The full version of the famous saying, at least in English:
"Jack of all trades, master of one; though oftimes better than master of one."
Specialization is always a trade-off. Hence, being broad, a bard isn't going to outdo a specialist, but the stereotypical bard works because of his or her versatility. So give them their due.
For something along the same lines (but less minstrel-y) in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, take a look at the "Factotum" (lit. New Latin for "do it all", "Johannes Factotum" a synonym for "Jack of all traes") in Dungeonscape.
Happy singing, scribes!  |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 04:40:55
If you had a DM who was big on history and lore there is no doubt that a bard would be wonderful to play. Sadly, though, their effectiveness is very much driven by the DM's style of game. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 10 Jan 2010 : 00:57:45
How can you hear Bard and not think of Finder! Gotta love that guy. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 09 Jan 2010 : 07:29:09
Jorkens, in 3rd edition, bards cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, instead of like mages. And they could only cast to 6th level, and the selection of spells they could cast is smaller than what they were able to do so in 2e, where they penned spells into thier spellbook from scolls.
It's still an awsome class in 3.5e, and they can use mage scrolls/wands, provided they have ranks in the Use Magic Device skill. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 14:34:31
I love bards, both as Npc`s and PC's. I think there has been a lot more bards than wizards in my games through the years. The class is especially good for solo adventures and small groups. Also, the complete Bards Handbook is one of my all time favourite 2ed. books.
Out of curiosity; what did they change about the class with the 3ed.? |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 08:44:47
In 2e, Bards are absolute killer; being able to fight w/melee weapons, fight w/ranged weapons, and cast arcane spells up to 8th level. 9th level, if the Bard shows exceptional intelligence, drive, and talents.
I've now been studying the 3.5e Bard, and while it's completely different from the 2e Bard that I'm used to, I'm finding the 3.5e can be pretty killer in its own right.
Just like real-life musicians, bards are pretty boring if the only talent they hone is music. There has to be something more to them, otherwise you get a shallow person/character.
Thus, I think the best way to play a 3.5e Bard is to give him/her at least 2 levels in another class, be it fighter, spellcaster, or something more unique. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 06:11:07
In 1st Edition I thought Bards were veritable Demi-Gods...and I was, IMHO, right. They also fit much for soundly within what people consider to be Harpers in the Forgotten Realms.
Later editions of the game, well, no comment.
I played a Bard in 1st Edition after attaining the needed levels in Fighter and Thief; but alas the game ended shortly after I became a Bard, so I didn't get to really drive home the idea in a game.
I can't remember the fella's name; but he was a rather "uncommon" sort of Bard having been a hack them down fighter of rather large brawn, and his Thief days were filled as a rather thug-like thief at that; but his intelligence was rather keen and so he was fun to play because of how well rounded he was.
Yes, my Bard wasn't as high level as some of the other characters; but he was very much a central element and well regarded...just wish that game had gone on for some few more years so that he could have become the Demi-God I envisioned him to be... |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 05:54:17
I well found the bard to be an excelling charater as a back up healer in previous editions...
they could buff well enough, and could sew confusion well enough.
that class though, was never really my cup of tea.
jack of all trades master of none.
that goes without saying, but for a bard, most of them are masters of soemthing, singing, playing an instruments, and great way to gets some coin out of the Innkeeper... play for the night, discounted room |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 04:53:24
My number one PC of all time is a bard. He was the mover-shaker of our party and got us in and out of all kinds of trouble.
I think the bard is better suited to a more cinematic style of gaming rather than a combat-heavy one, but it's always fun to turn a tank into an uber-tank. :) |
| Saegis |
Posted - 08 Jan 2010 : 00:09:56
As a DM I relish the chance to introduce my homebrew campaign settings through bards. I'm running a 4e campaign right now and a friend of mine is playing a half-elven bard, Diffan. Unfortunately we have another PC who's filling in a similar role but so far the Bard (both as a class and as the specific character) have been fantastic to have in my game.
4th edition aside, I've always liked the idea of playing a character with tricks up my sleeve. Also, the bardic tradition in Forgotten Realms is so rich and vast that I'd be tempted to play one regardless of what edition I'm in. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 20:55:39
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
You know what another name for a Jack-of-All-Trades is?
A competent person.
I think the saying goes "Jack-of-All-Trades but a Master-of-None."
That being said, I really have a hard time finding a reason to play a bard using the 3/3.5E system. They just don't have enough "umph" to me. Sure, there are some good prestige classes that make them useful but it's just not a class I've ever found myself pulled too.
I can see how they could be useful if every other role in the party was filled but they just don't pull their weight as a primary class to a party of 4. Of course, I do love how much lore and flavor they have and they're always good for a level or two when multiclassing with a rogue.
And I'd hate to say this but with 4E, I would really love to give them a go, espically a Half-elven bard.
This is why the bard is often referred to as the 'ideal 5th party member'. They can heal well enough to get a healer up and functioning, ID magic items, and (most importantly) they are great buff-monkeys, as well as being about as skill-y as a ranger (but with an obvious slant toward 'town skills' as opposed to 'wilderness skills')
IMO, bards are absolutely great as a 5th player- the only class they are really capable of supplanting of the base 4 is the rogue, since with the right skill and spell selections, a bard can get pretty rogue-ish. |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 15:14:02
I have played many bards over the years, I do enjoy the class. From a dwarven bard who played the bagpipes to draconic (song) female half-elf who was devestating with a whip, to Hamlin the halfling bard who had a very strong southern accent, they are always memorable. I especially enjoy creating songs, mostly just converted nursery rhymes, but I did a pretty good one once about the perils of adventuring called an Adventuring life for me, set to Yo ho, yo ho. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 15:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
You know what another name for a Jack-of-All-Trades is?
A competent person.
I think the saying goes "Jack-of-All-Trades but a Master-of-None."
That being said, I really have a hard time finding a reason to play a bard using the 3/3.5E system. They just don't have enough "umph" to me. Sure, there are some good prestige classes that make them useful but it's just not a class I've ever found myself pulled too.
I can see how they could be useful if every other role in the party was filled but they just don't pull their weight as a primary class to a party of 4. Of course, I do love how much lore and flavor they have and they're always good for a level or two when multiclassing with a rogue.
And I'd hate to say this but with 4E, I would really love to give them a go, espically a Half-elven bard. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 14:38:17
Bards pretty much are, my favourite class -- right alongside the Wizard. The Bard class tends to combine most of what I like to role-play in my games. Where else can you find a comedian, a storyteller, a diplomat, a lorekeeper, and a musician all rolled into the one class?
As for the Bards' fighting abilities -- though puissant in the right circumstances and with intelligent play -- I usually consider them secondary aspects of the class. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 13:07:11
I love bards; probably one of my favorite classes. I think the 3.0 system diluted their function and role and it lingered on for a long while. In Pathfinder they appear to have a great function and are a welcome addition to a party should they choose. In 4e they are significantly better than their predecessors as well and make for a great leader-based character; slinging bardic spells and inspiring allies. All of this is speaking from a game-system POV of course. I don't think there is any doubting their value from a character development stand point. Bards are the greatest storytellers and entertainers around. My extrovertedness loves it ;) |
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